The federal government is apparently racist

[Shady]

59 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your statement so sweeping that it's likely false.  The 'system' undoubtedly has some racist things in it, and I'm sure even you would agree... for example if you felt (as you probably do) that affirmative action is part of the system.

That said, a system is a bunch of neutral components intended to achieve some goal.  Those who designed it may have been working under flawed assumptions but just because a racist made the bicycle, doesn't mean the bicycle is racist.

Which racist things in the system are you referring to?

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, Shady said:

Which racist things in the system are you referring to?

Affirmative action.  Didn't you read the post? It's pretty short.

[cougar]

On 6/10/2020 at 1:01 PM, Argus said:

 "How come the government you people have been running for five years is so racist?" or "Where is this systemic racism anyway?"
 

Argus , do you consider yourself racist and why, if not , why not?

[DogOnPorch]

1 hour ago, cougar said:

Argus , do you consider yourself racist and why, if not , why not?

 

Do you still beat your wife?

Also known as the loaded question.

[OftenWrong]

8 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Do you still beat your wife?

Also known as the loaded question.

Indeed, Argus, are you still a racist?   

[Argus]

13 hours ago, cougar said:

Argus , do you consider yourself racist and why, if not , why not?

Define racism. I go by the dictionary definition. Yes, yes, I know. How horribly old-fashioned. Why, it's almost as bad as making decisions based on information and logic rather than emotion.

Do I think that whites are superior racially speaking, genetically speaking to blacks? No.
Do I prefer to be around people much like me in terms of culture, values, behaviour? Yes. (which psychologists would tell you is absolutely normal and crosses all cultural boundaries)
Am I thus critical of other groups which behave differently? Yes.
Does this relate to the color of their skin? No.

A better question to ask would be whether I consider myself prejudiced. That is a much different kettle of fish. Prejudiced means 'pre-judging' an individual based on your perceptions of the group. And I admit to sometimes being prejudiced, but, being aware of it, resist it in the case of individuals. It doesn't take long to determine whether an individual is or is not falling into the 'box' so to speak.

When speaking/thinking of an entire group; blacks, say, natives, Muslims, Indians, Scotsmen, etc., my feelings for them would depend on how closely their behaviour, values and culture differs from mine. And yes, I'm well aware that not every individual member of a given group would behave in the same way as the group does.

So in answer to your question I don't consider myself a racist, not overly prejudiced(or at least I'm in control of my prejudices). I AM, however, highly judgemental and largely intolerant of stupidity, be it of individuals or groups. And I will not restrain my judgement because an individual is a member of this or that 'protected' group. I am not a fan of the liberal bigotry of low expectations. I won't make allowances for someone's behaviour because they're a minority member. And I am a firm proponent of merit in all hiring and promotions.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Argus

[cougar]

5 hours ago, Argus said:

Define racism.

 

I think it is about discrimination - treating someone differently based on place of origin, skin color, etc.

But "treating" is a very broad term.  It is one thing to kill a person because of what they look, another  to be a waiter and refuse to serve someone a drink because they are black; and yet  another to just be withdrawn from sharing as much information with that person as you would have had he not been black.

From what I can read above you are inclined to treat different cultures differently.

No blame pointed at you. 

I find that I have had enough of this diversity where I do not find people to normally communicate with.     Just 5 years ago there were white people working at most stores and restaurants in town.  Now it is a complete East Indian invasion.  Do I feel neutral about that?  No, I don't

But then we can dig a bit deeper.  There is going to be some form of discrimination even across white people.  French speaking vs. English speaking.  West Europeans vs. East Europeans, socialists against capitalists, blonds vs. brunettes,  fat vs. slim, young vs. old.

This stupid idea that everyone should coexist with zero attrition is pure utopia.  It has not happened since the beginning of mankind and it is unlikely to happen before all people look the same.

I imagine , when slavery was abolished, all black people could have been deported back to Africa.  They were not, because they were still needed, and again needed as slaves, but autonomous slaves.  The type of slaves Canada has been importing for years from Asia.  No need to provide food , shelter and anything ; slaves will come to work every day to your business and work just to be alive.  All you have to do is MAKE SURE THEY REALLY BELIEVE YOU WANT TO TREAT THEM EQUALLY.

 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, cougar said:

I think it is about discrimination - treating someone differently based on place of origin, skin color, etc.

But "treating" is a very broad term.  It is one thing to kill a person because of what they look, another  to be a waiter and refuse to serve someone a drink because they are black; and yet  another to just be withdrawn from sharing as much information with that person as you would have had he not been black.

From what I can read above you are inclined to treat different cultures differently.

How does one 'treat' a culture? Differently or not? I judge other cultures on the basis of mine.

But that does not mean I would treat individuals differently.

1 hour ago, cougar said:

I find that I have had enough of this diversity where I do not find people to normally communicate with.     Just 5 years ago there were white people working at most stores and restaurants in town.  Now it is a complete East Indian invasion.  Do I feel neutral about that?  No, I don't

It isn't the color or background. It's whether or not they 'feel' like they're like you. I remember years ago I was on an inter-provincial bus. It stopped and a black guy got on around my age. I sighed mentally as he sat down next to me. But then he started talking. He was Canadian-born. He had no accent. We had many points of commonality. We got along great. I was sorry when he got off.

1 hour ago, cougar said:

But then we can dig a bit deeper.  There is going to be some form of discrimination even across white people.  French speaking vs. English speaking.  West Europeans vs. East Europeans, socialists against capitalists, blonds vs. brunettes,  fat vs. slim, young vs. old.

This stupid idea that everyone should coexist with zero attrition is pure utopia.  It has not happened since the beginning of mankind and it is unlikely to happen before all people look the same.

As the government continues to bring in huge masses of foreigners each year, more than 1% of our population, the 'diversity' level is going to increase, and that inevitably is going to bring fractious behaviour. Especially since most of our primary immigration source countries are incredibly, unapologetically racist, by our standards.

 

[Independent1986]

@Argus

Your frame of thinking is no different than these leftists that put people in groups.

Once you jump on the road of group thinking you are stepping on individuals that have nothing to do with your analysis about "other cultures".

Those individuals in turn will start resenting and might turn to their tribalism to respond.

It is a never ending cycle that gets us nowhere.

[Argus]

13 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

@Argus

Your frame of thinking is no different than these leftists that put people in groups.

Everyone puts people in groups. It's a natural human thing to do. And in any event, people are IN groups. Muslims, Christians, Republicans, Democrats, liberals, conservatives, Spaniards, Dutch, Russians, Nigerians, Arabs, Blacks, Asians, Indians, whites. The world is full of groups. Recognizing that is not a human failing.

13 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

Once you jump on the road of group thinking you are stepping on individuals that have nothing to do with your analysis about "other cultures".

I specifically said that the issue one needs to control for is allowing our perceptions of groups become preconceptions about individuals, and worse, acting on those preconceptions.

13 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

Those individuals in turn will start resenting and might turn to their tribalism to respond.

It is a never ending cycle that gets us nowhere.

We are all tribal - well, except for white liberals, apparently, who are the only group tested to have out-group loyalty rather than in-group loyalty.

[Independent1986]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

We are all tribal - well, except for white liberals, apparently, who are the only group tested to have out-group loyalty rather than in-group loyalty.

I am so sick of my tribalism and I am not a white liberal, if you say the word romanian in Western Europe everyone says thieves and robbers. Do I blame people that say that in anger ? Not really because I know a lot of Romanians go there and they do that but why should I be responsible because the majority of my community that go there are thieves ? You are stepping on my individual right. Collective punishment/judgement does not work unless you are a communist or a fascist. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Independent1986

[Argus]

52 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

I am so sick of my tribalism and I am not a white liberal, if you say the word romanian in Western Europe everyone says thieves and robbers. Do I blame people that say that in anger ? Not really because I know a lot of Romanians go there and they do that but why should I be responsible because the majority of my community that go there are thieves ? You are stepping on my individual right. Collective punishment/judgement does not work unless you are a communist or a fascist. 

I understand that and sympathize. But at the same time I fully agreed with us having a visa for Romanians and think Trudeau was an idiot to remove it. Same goes for Mexicans. Yes, it could certainly be seen as collective punishments, but a country should do what's in its own best interest. What's in the interests of Romanians and Mexicans is irrelevant.

I figure most contractors are probably okay guys. I still won't hire one without a personal recommendation from someone I trust. Too many are incompetent, crooks, or both. And I have no way of telling them apart. A group gets a reputation due to not policing its members, and others come to distrust it due to those within it acting up. That's the way humans work.

[Independent1986]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

But at the same time I fully agreed with us having a visa for Romanians.

I think every individual should go through a visa and vetting process before coming to Canada, yes but this is not what we are talking about. We are talking about the cycle of action and reaction based on "other cultures". I have an uncle back home that talks exactly the same as you, "everything romanian is good, no more immigrants, bla bla" . Every country has people like this.

However,

Look around Canada today, either you have communists that hate the country or you have right wingers that are more loyal to Trump than to their own country. Immigration sometimes is an investment. Look at me, immigrant that became Canadian, I love and respect this country more than some people that were born here. And are many more. Why ? Because we have a relative point to go by. In my estimation they don't tell you that in Michael Savage's or Mark Levin's shows. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Independent1986

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

... Look at me, immigrant that became Canadian, I love and respect this country more than some people that were born here. And are many more. I guess, in my estimation they don't tell you that in Michael Savage's or Mark Levin's shows. 

 

Perhaps the irony here is lost on you....where is the love and respect for the  country that they leave for good ?  

If many immigrants leave for Canada, what will be left to improve their abandoned country ?

[Argus]

37 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

Look around Canada today, either you have communists that hate the country or you have right wingers that are more loyal to Trump than to their own country.

Or you have people like me who have contempt for the left wing who continually dump on and insult Canada and its history and traditions, but also have contempt for Trump.

37 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

Immigration sometimes is an investment. Look at me, immigrant that became Canadian, I love and respect this country more than some people that were born here. And are many more. Why ? Because we have a relative point to go by. In my estimation they don't tell you that in Michael Savage's or Mark Levin's shows. 

That's great. But right now over 20% of the people in this country are foreign born. Given Trudeau is bringing in 1% of the population as immigrants each year that will rise to nearly 50% in under 25 years. That's too much too fast to be able to assimilate, to even know what Canada stands for.  The vast majority of these immigrants are from third world countries with no history of democracy, no culture of respect or compromise for others, massive corruption, religious extremism, racism and social violence. None are screened to see what kind of attitudes or thoughts or values or beliefs they hold. And many of them, unlike you, fail. Witness http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/homicide/mostwanted.php

So with half the country made up of such people what is this place going to be like?

[Independent1986]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Perhaps the irony here is lost on you....where is the love and respect for the  country that they leave for good ?  

If many immigrants leave for Canada, what will be left to improve their abandoned country ?

Your point? The country is like a house, individuals can move houses all the time if proper steps are done by both sides and is mutual understanding.

I think a patriot is someone that respects the place that he lives currently in. 

Individuals can be born in a nice house and their contribution can be ZERO. That or they vote for the dream team Bush & Cheney

Edited June 15, 2020 by Independent1986

[bush_cheney2004]

8 hours ago, Independent1986 said:

Your point? The country is like a house, individuals can move houses all the time if proper steps are done by both sides and is mutual understanding.

I think a patriot is someone that respects the place that he lives currently in.

 

My point is obvious....I think those who so easily shift houses and "patriotism" should not question the allegiance of others who have not.    The federal government requires this oath from immigrants seeking citizenship (despite the racist/colonial concepts), not natural born citizens:

 

Quote

“I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada, and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.”

 

[Independent1986]

45 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

My point is obvious....I think those who so easily shift houses and "patriotism" should not question the allegiance of others who have not.   

What are you talking about ? A patriot and a good citizen is someone that contribues and respect the house that he currently lives in.

Just take a look at the natural born citizens on this forum that are saluting Trump. What this have to do with Canada ?

I can start debating regarding the circumstances of someone moving houses, it is so complex but I find it irrelevant. Who cares how someone got somewhere as long as he is part of society and makes a contribution ?

 I don't even know why I waste my time responding to someone that just assumes all natural born citizens are patriots, come back to reality, we are not 100 years ago.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Independent1986

[bush_cheney2004]

36 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

What are you talking about ? A patriot and a good citizen is someone that contribues and respect the house that he currently lives in.

Just take a look at the natural born citizens on this forum that are saluting Trump. What this have to do with Canada ?

 

Until they change their mind and allegiance to another house ?   How convenient.

The Canadian oath pledges to the racist/colonial queen and laws in Canada, not patriotism.

As for Trump, far more Canadians saluted Obama and wished they could vote for him in 2008 and 2012.   So what ?

[Independent1986]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Until they change their mind and allegiance to another house ?   How convenient.

I understand Michael Savage and Limbaugh in between his cigar breaks tells you daily that all immigrants are coming to Canada and USA for economic reasons and to milk the system but you will be surprised when you move aside the propaganda curtain what you will find. 

As an individual I have the right to go wherever I want as long as I go through a process, and yes I agree with strict visa requirements, it should be based on MERIT not on lottery immigration. If tomorrow I decide to move to the USA, I will have the same attitude as I am having now, which is respect the place that I am living in. 

Communists hate their country too much, some of you natural born citizens love your country too much and are blind to what is around you. The world is changing, either you learn how to adapt or you will end up alone in Middle America with empty factories yelling about the "bad immigrants".

“It is not the strongest species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change”: Charles Darwin.

[bush_cheney2004]

14 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

I understand Michael Savage and Limbaugh in between his cigar breaks tells you daily that all immigrants are coming to Canada and USA for economic reasons and to milk the system but you will be surprised when you move aside the propaganda curtain what you will find.

 

I don't care why they come to Canada (or America), but they keep coming regardless of the "racism".    They are obviously fleeing or seeking something that is missing in their own nations.  Then some will claim they are uber patriots compared to the native born who dare criticize the government.

 

Quote

As an individual I have the right to go wherever I want as long as I go through a process, and yes I agree with strict visa requirements, it should be based on MERIT not on lottery immigration. If tomorrow I decide to move to the USA, I will have the same attitude as I am having now, which is respect the place that I am living in.

 

No, you have no such right.   You have the privilege of doing so.  

 

[Independent1986]

27 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

No, you have no such right.

No, is a right, earned by MERIT for some of us, you are generalizing based on what Limbaugh tells you. He shows you a few pictures of some caravans and your reaction is all immigrants are coming to get my job. They make the millions and you stay angry.

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

No, is a right, earned by MERIT for some of us, you are generalizing based on what Limbaugh tells you. He shows you a few pictures of some caravans and your reaction is all immigrants are coming to get my job. They make the millions and you stay angry.

 

You know more about Limbaugh than I do....maybe you have reason to fear him.

I don't....I will not be fleeing to racist Canada or any other nation.

[Shady]

It’s weird that the so-called systemic racism in our country knows to avoid Asian and East Indian peoples.  I wonder how it knows how to do that.  Very odd.

[Independent1986]

10 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

You know more about Limbaugh than I do....maybe you have reason to fear him.

I listen to everyone especially to the people engarge of the masses on the communist side and fear mongering right.

As an individual I have to listen to what the sheep are up to. Is a self defensive mechanism. Someone in my position does not have the ability to join one side and be comfortable, I always have to watch the political spectrum to see where it stands.

I do not underestimate the power of groups and irrational thinking, just look at their track history, from communist atheists to religious fanatics, this is where it ends up.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Independent1986