Panic, Ignorance, Shut Up Already

[Dougie93]

In terms of panic on the ground, that has subsided here where I am at

People are still stocking up as they go, but there's no more panic buying

People are dutifully keeping their distance from each other, yet everybody is still out and about enjoying the sunshine

Relax in the saddle, war is boring, pace yourself.

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

In terms of panic on the ground, that has subsided here where I am at

People are still stocking up as they go, but there's no more panic buying

People are dutifully keeping their distance from each other, yet everybody is still out and about enjoying the sunshine

Same here. Went out for a long walk today and saw many people dong likewise. The park by the lake was crowded, almost. We saw just a few Chinamen wearing masks, and not even all of them. Imagine that. Maybe the average Joe bob is not as dumb as the panic stricken media would like to believe.

[Zeitgeist]

Current Stats:

Country, Other	Total Cases	New Cases	Total Deaths	New Deaths	Total Recovered	Active Cases	Serious, Critical	Tot Cases/ 1M pop
China	81,008		3,255		71,740	6,013	1,927	56
Italy	53,578	+6,557	4,825	+793	6,072	42,681	2,857	886
USA	26,111	+6,728	324	+68	176	25,611	64	79
Spain	25,496	+3,925	1,378	+285	2,125	21,993	1,612	545
Germany	22,364	+2,516	84	+16	209	22,071	2	267
Iran	20,610	+966	1,556	+123	7,635	11,419		245
France	14,459	+1,847	562	+112	1,587	12,310	1,525	222
S. Korea	8,799	+147	102	+8	2,612	6,085	59	172
Switzerland	6,863	+1,248	80	+24	131	6,652	141	793
UK	5,018	+1,035	233	+56	93	4,692	20	74
Netherlands	3,631	+637	136	+30	2	3,493	354	212
Austria	2,992	+343	8	+2	9	2,975	15	332
Belgium	2,815	+558	67	+30	263	2,485	288	243
Norway	2,164	+205	7		6	2,151	28	399
Sweden	1,770	+131	20	+4	16	1,734	71	175
Canada	1,328	+241	19	+7	14	1,295	1	35

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Same here. Went out for a long walk today and saw many people dong likewise. The park by the lake was crowded, almost. We saw just a few Chinamen wearing masks, and not even all of them. Imagine that. Maybe the average Joe bob is not as dumb as the panic stricken media would like to believe.

Still there are doctors everywhere calling for a total lockdown of everything except essential services

It's like I have raw meat stocked up in a freezer just for my dogs, in case dogs are deemed to no longer be essential

Edited March 22, 2020 by Dougie93

[OftenWrong]

10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Still there are doctors everywhere calling for a total lockdown of everything except essential services

It's like I have raw meat stocked up in a freezer just for my dogs, in case dogs are deemed to no longer be essential

Dogs might need to be wiped out, if they carry the virus. Because the virus must be eradicated in place, at all costs.

[Dougie93]

Just now, OftenWrong said:

Dogs might need to be wiped out, if they carry the virus. Because the virus must be eradicated in place, at all costs.

They won't be able to find me with my dogs in the woods at that point, hence why I live in the boonies

[Yzermandius19]

13 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

You guys seriously don’t get it.  It’s too late for the South Korean approach here.  They have far more beds and supplies and they began intensively testing early.  The medical preparation they did over years isn’t available at the snap of our fingers.  Their main success was in implementing draconian quarantining.  They couldn’t test everyone, only 300,000 people, more than anyone else.  We’ll test as many people as we can as quickly as we can. Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, and belatedly China, all moved to extreme quarantine and testing.  Even now the public schools aren’t open.  It’s worked out better for S. Korea, but now, through extreme measures, China is in actually in a position to reopen the marketplace in a careful way.  Not the case for Europe and North America.  We are doing the long-term mamby pamby, which means unsuccessful quarantine and collapsing economy. We need to get down to serious action.  
 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/20/south-korea-rapid-intrusive-measures-covid-19

 

South Korea did not shut down it's economy. It only quarantined the sick, not everyone. South Korea's approach was so successful because it was less draconian, not more draconian. The South Korean results were better than Chinese results, despite China locking everything down in a ridiculous fashion, meanwhile South Korea did not take the economic hit that China did. This assumption that draconian measures are the only effective ones, is simply not born out by the facts, and is an entirely faith based assertion by control freaks who want to feel like government crackdowns will wipe out the virus regardless of whether or not it's true.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

South Korea did not shut down it's economy. It only quarantined the sick, not everyone. South Korea's approach was so successful because it was less draconian, not more draconian. The South Korean results were better than Chinese results, despite China locking everything down in a ridiculous fashion, meanwhile South Korea did not take the economic hit that China did. This assumption that draconian measures are the only effective ones, is simply not born out by the facts, and is an entirely faith based assertion by control freaks who want to feel like government crackdowns will wipe out the virus regardless of whether or not it's true.

We didn’t have the infrastructure or the will to take S. Korean measures and their approach hasn’t stopped the virus or restarted their economy.  They’re still getting many new cases a day and the schools are still shut.  Effectively their economy is still in free fall. Our economy isn’t functioning under current practice.  We can try to maintain this hemorrhaging or we can staunch it for once and all.  The looser we are the longer the hemorrhaging.  People won’t be able to handle it at some point and government can only throw so many billions at the problem.  

If you can show me a scenario that allows people to return to work and school, even at 75 or 50% capacity as we treat new cases, I’d support it.  Oh wait, there is one way: Get to zero known new cases then start the tentative return to work.  What gets you to zero in the shortest time frame that doesn’t require testing every soul (because the US has given up on that and not even S. Korea has done that)?  Strict quarantine, probably for at least 6 weeks.  Do that and all cases have had a chance to become symptomatic and get to recovery.  That’s your reset.  It doesn’t matter whether you want to listen to me.  The next few weeks will illustrate the scope of the challenge.  There simply aren’t enough test kits and protective gear readily available.  Test as much as possible, get the protective gear to people.  Great. That doesn’t slow the spread today.  Hospitals can only take extreme cases that require ventilators, which are in short supply, so we do what we can.  

Edited March 22, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[Yzermandius19]

11 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

We didn’t have the infrastructure or the will to take S. Korean measures and their approach hasn’t stopped the virus or restarted their economy.  They’re still getting many new cases a day and the schools are still shut.  Effectively their economy is still in free fall. Our economy isn’t functioning under current practice.  We can try to maintain this hemorrhaging or we can staunch it for once and all.  The looser we are the longer the hemorrhaging.  People won’t be able to handle it at some point and government can only throw so many billions at the problem.  

If you can show me a scenario that allows people to return to work and school, even at 75 or 50% capacity as we treat new cases, I’d support it.  Oh wait, there is one way: Get to zero known new cases then start the tentative return to work.  What gets you to zero in the shortest time frame that doesn’t require testing every soul (because the US has given up on that and not even S. Korea has done that)?  Strict quarantine, probably for at least 6 weeks.  Do that and all cases have had a chance to become symptomatic and get to recovery.  That’s your reset.  It doesn’t matter whether you want to listen to me.  The next few weeks will illustrate the scope of the challenge.  

Once they return to work the virus will make a comeback and you can't keep everything shut down forever. Your faith in the Chinese model is misplaced, you seem to just assume there will only be one wave and if you just wait it out the virus will vanish, this is wishful thinking, not wise policy. We are already seeing that countries who shut things down are seeing a surge in cases once they open things back up, your plan is a miserable failure. Shutting things down does not kill the virus, it simply slows it down and kicks the can down the road, it does not clean up the can, it's entirely a stall tactic.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Once they return to work the virus will make a comeback and you can't keep everything shut down forever. Your faith in the Chinese model is misplaced, you seem to just assume there will only be one wave and if you just wait it out the virus will vanish, this is wishful thinking, not wise policy. We are already seeing that countries who shut things down are seeing a surge in cases once they open things back up, your plan is a miserable failure.

Evidence?  We are not at work now.  Other than getting to zero cases or as close to zero as possible then doing a careful, small group return to work and school, with strict measures to isolate new cases, there is no strategy.  There is nothing more to do than that.  

Edited March 22, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[Yzermandius19]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Evidence? 

Everywhere that isn't China basically, and you're trust in China's data over Singapore's or Hong Kong's is laughable. Italy is trying the Chinese model, how's that working out for them? Not great, Bob.

The same government that covered up the Coronavirus outbreak up is the government you trust when they say they have no new cases, and the government you trust to implement the most effective measures containing the outbreak. The sheer idiocy of that is next level, do you believe North Korea as well when they say they haven't had any cases? That's the next step in your idiocy spiral, we should all go with North Korea model of pretending the virus doesn't exist and be a 1984 totalitarian hell hole.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Zeitgeist]

10 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Everywhere that isn't China basically, and you're trust in China's data over Singapore's or Hong Kong's is laughable. Italy is trying the Chinese model, how's that working out for them? Not great, Bob.

Sorry bud, but I’ve done a ton of reading on this. Other than getting to zero new cases and slowly reopening the marketplace, there is no strategy. Waiting for something magic to happen is lost precious time for eliminating the virus and restarting the economy.  Treat as best we can and work on a vaccine.  Carrying on as we are now for 12-18 months waiting for a vaccine is a dark prospect.  I don’t even want to think about the suicides or shape of that economy one year from now.  

Edited March 22, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[Yzermandius19]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Sorry bud, but I’ve done a ton of reading on this. Other than getting to zero new cases and slowly reopening the marketplace, there is no strategy. Waiting for something magic to happen is lost precious time for eliminating the virus and restarting the economy.  

That strategy isn't a strategy. It's a stall tactic to come up with a strategy, and yet all they are doing is tunnel visioning on stall tactics. You might have read a lot about this, but that doesn't mean your comprehension is any good, and your trust in China to report the facts to everyone is laughable. If you honestly believe the Coronavirus is gone from China and never coming back, I have bridge to sell you.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

That strategy isn't a strategy. It's a stall tactic to come up with a strategy, and yet all they are doing is tunnel visioning on stall tactics. You might have read a lot about this, but that doesn't mean your comprehension is any good.

Read my prior posts and let the coming weeks scare you straight.  

[Yzermandius19]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Read my prior posts and let the coming weeks scare you straight.  

I have read your posts, and it's all Sky Is Falling Chicken Little F*ggotry, your posts are those of a complete panic monkey knee jerk nanny state rube.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

I have read your posts, and it's all Sky Is Falling Chicken Little F*ggotry, your posts are those of a complete panic monkey knee jerk nanny state rube.

You’re a fool like many other softies who think they can carry on oblivious.  I think that will be many people and this could take us to a very dark place.  Doesn’t matter whether you like or agree with me.  Reality will illustrate.  

[betsy]

Whether it's panicking for nothing, or sheer ignorance or mindless fear -  coronavirus is hurting the economy BIG TIME! 

That's not my feverish imagination - unless I'm hallucinating every time I read the news or watch tv!   That's the reality - don't you guys agree?

 

We may not all be that concerned over catching this coronavirus, but at the rate we're spending billions with a flat economy - it doesn't take much to imagine................ THE SKY COULD REALLY BE FALLING!

Edited March 22, 2020 by betsy

[Yzermandius19]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re a fool like many other softies who think they can carry on oblivious.  I think that will be many people and this could take us to a very dark place.  Doesn’t matter whether you like or agree with me.  Reality will illustrate.  

Reality will not line up with your SIFCLF delusions, just as it isn't as we speak.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Yzermandius19]

1 minute ago, betsy said:

Whether it's panicking for nothing, or sheer ignorance -  coronavirus is hurting the economy BIG TIME!  That's not my feverish imagination - unless I'm hallucinating every time I read the news or watch tv!   That-s the reality - don't you guys agree?

Indeed the reaction to the virus is more dangerous than the virus itself. Panicking for the fail.

[Zeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Indeed the reaction to the virus is more dangerous than the virus itself. Panicking for the fail.

I’m totally relaxed, but I’m not stupid.  Dumb behaviour and policies are what will unnecessarily drag this out.  It’s worth making the right sacrifices today.  Carelessness like yours is part of the problem.  

[betsy]

16 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Indeed the reaction to the virus is more dangerous than the virus itself. Panicking for the fail.

It's easy to say to not "panick."   But how do you really define "panic-buying?"  How do you differentiate it from being practical?  Like....for who knows what reason, deliveries are arriving  late.  Of course, supplies that do finally get delivered will be snapped fast.  It's simple SUPPLY and DEMAND.

 

Look at hand sanitizers, as an example.   Why can't they have them on the shelf, if we say this is "normal" times?  Surely, stores can put a limit on how many a customer can buy just so to have them available for everyone - and yet, there are none!  WHY?

 

 

Would it be panic or simply being sensible....... to be prepared?  Do we leave everything to chance  (to try to rationalize that it's business as usual) when we hear of massive lay offs and businesses shutting down? 

 

There's such a thing as being an ostrich, too.  To want to convince one's self that all is well, is the opposite reaction of panicking.   We don't want to think of the fearsome possibility....because it's just too fearsome to even think about.  If we don't see it, it can't be true.

 

What is lost to some of the folks is that certain people do the buying now (while they can)......so they don't have to go out IF the situation ever gets too dangerous out there!  You don't want to go out when mobs and looters are everywhere just to try to get your hands on a loaf of bread - at probably such a high price too.

Edited March 22, 2020 by betsy

[Yzermandius19]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

I’m totally relaxed, but I’m not stupid.  Dumb behaviour and policies are what will unnecessarily drag this out.  It’s worth making the right sacrifices today.  Carelessness like yours is part of the problem.  

I'm not being careless, I'm just not panicking, like you, and governments around the world. Nor am I engaging in dumb behavior and policies that will unnecessarily drag this out like y'all are.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Yzermandius19]

5 minutes ago, betsy said:

Would it be panic or simply being sensible....... to be prepared?  Do we leave everything to chance  (to try to rationalize that it's business as usual) when we hear of massive lay offs and businesses shutting down? 

Shutting down the economy is panicking. It's not preparing, it's not being sensible, it's stalling and engaging in wishful thinking. You thinking that stalling will make the virus magically go away is not supported by any trustworthy data.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

I'm not being careless, I'm just not panicking, like you, and governments around the world.

I’ve fasted and hitch-hiked across a continent with little food.  I wouldn’t choose it today.  I was young and foolish.  We have to make the wisest moves today to minimize suffering.  Anyway, it’s too obvious what’s unfolding and why it’s being mishandled.  People can’t handle the sacrifices.  

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Shutting down the economy is panicking. It's not preparing, it's not being sensible, it's stalling and engaging in wishful thinking.

It’s already happened.  We just haven’t seen the ramifications yet.