Buffalo declaration.

[Army Guy]

Some Alberta MP's have just produced a document call the buffalo declaration makes for some interesting reading, one has to read it with an open mind, maybe it is time to review our constitution and make some changes. I mean Alberta and Saskatchewan and not the only provinces to have disagreements, there is Quebec, along with other groups such as First nations , the French, maybe it's time we produce a document that everyone can sign onto and agree....Or maybe this is just pie in the sky, what would you like to see changed in the constitution. Perhaps we get rid of the monarchy ? Adapt another form of government ? it's a fresh page what do you want your constitution to read like.

https://buffalodeclaration.com/

Edited February 21, 2020 by Army Guy

[eyeball]

Boy does this bring up memories...we found ourselves delving into the depths of history as far back as the Magna Carta when trying to figure out what to do when reconciliation came knocking in my region.

I even dug out my old Vancouver Island Liberation Army tee-shirt from way back in the day.

This is going to take decades but if this Buffalo manifesto is any indication Albertan's are finally taking the first tentative steps towards embracing the "horror". I feel for you, I really do. But I also came around to feeling for the natives.

I'm sorry but I was raised in Ontario where they made me go to free school so it's probably not my fault.

Edited February 22, 2020 by eyeball

[Queenmandy85]

The only changes I would make to the Constitution is to replace the position of the Prime Minister with direct rule and the prohibit any further changes. Eliminating the PM is easy because it is hardly mentioned in the Constitution.

[eyeball]

Reconciliation is just going to be so much easier. 3/4's of the cranky old farts that refuse to get with the program will be either dead or drooling with dementia by the time the Constitution is rejigged.

[Moonlight Graham]

People want self-determination.  Let provinces determine as much of their own fate as possible.  When the federal government steps on provincial toes too much you get provincial alienation.  All Quebec and AB want is to be respected by the ROC/feds, and to determine their own destiny,.  There's no reason that can't be done within confederation.

[Michael Hardner]

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

3/4's of the cranky old farts that refuse to get with the program will be either dead or drooling 

Dead.  And they will have devised a few dozen meaningless declarations before then, like this.

I fully trust the next generation will look at the long history of broken promises, starting from the Truth and Reconciliation commission and make it happen.

[Rue]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

Reconciliation is just going to be so much easier. 3/4's of the cranky old farts that refuse to get with the program will be either dead or drooling with dementia by the time the Constitution is rejigged.

Listen kid you sound cranky. People my age solve that with prune juice.

[Rue]

In response to Army Guy. As you know Armed Guy, the constitution is a mix of oral protocols, case law precedents that are  now followed by courts, statutes such as the Constitution Act, treaties with native communities the British government signed with these communities prior to Canada's coming into existence but were inherited and recognized as being inherited by our Canadian legal system. Add to that we have a constitutional framework that created a constant legal dynamic or tension between the provinces and federal government over jurisdiction to implement laws and a second  tension between the federal government and a parallel government of the indigenous peoples. 

Then we added a Charter of Rights which now creates yet another tension which now enables individuals to push their individual rights in as wide an application as the law will allow it thanks to the Supreme Court of Canada. So bottom line, you have  provs,  hundreds of indigenous nations,  and now individuals all fighting for more rights coming to court with ambiguous doctrines and legal precedents that don't help matters as they can be argued any way you feel like it.

Then of course to top that all off you have an amendment formula which makes amending any constitutional law damn near  impossible. You would need unanimous consent from all provinces, the feds and the entire nation of nations constellation to change any constitutional doctrine.

Welcome to Canada.

Uh yah it can be a friggin mess Army at least from a legal perspective. You bloody well may as well expect a Charter challenge on anything and everything to do with enforcing any legal power by any government and because of that, politicians trying to avoid making any decisions that could trigger such a challenge...and so we have what I call Charter syndrome a fear factor that is behind almost every damn political issue of the day and I would suggest not withstanding Trudeau. is a problem any fed or prov leader will now face not just with native peoples but all individuals.

For many Canadians its a source of complaint, doomsday scenarios and annoyance at not forcing laws onto people who are considered whiners.I get that sentiment that we now have a nation of self entitled victims all seeking compensation and no one wanting to take responsibility for their own lives but instead demand the governments do it for them.

Some believe the ultimate conclusion to all this is soldiers. When all else fails, throw in the soldiers or police. Throw you guys out to do what?  We can't take advantage of our freedom to discuss anything and solve anything we want, so we throw you guys out? Oh phack that. My perspective Army is Ivolunteered  in a country of constant war and violence and travelled to many others  with the same violence or serious problems that make ours seem so trivial.I gratefully live in Canada with all the freedoms most people in the world could never imagine having let alone natural resources most people can't even fathom and the people born here whine and whine and whine over disagreements that grade schoolers could settle if they wanted to.

Excuse my rejection of those sentiments of those who think you solve everything by sending out soldiers to do your dirty work. For me this is nothing more than lizard politicians trying to preserve their own fiefdoms of power. They have lost touch with their constituents.

I appreciate the impatience of people. I do. I am not snot nosing the anger they may have. I just don't think throwing our army or police out is a remedy. In a democracy its painfully slow to make changes in a civil manner. Dougie is right you can have a guy make trains run on time but what else does that leader bring? To this day I hear, Mussolini made the trains run on time... Hitler was efficient you have to hand him that.. he made his trains run on time. Yah they did. Then again in Jamaica you ask someone, what time is the bus or plane coming and they simply say, SOON COME MAN SOON COME and that could mean an hour, a day, who the phack knows. Thanks given the choice of sittin in the shade waiting or having some angry man goose step in my face... I will take the former not the latter. It may be slow but a train running on time don't mean much to me especially when that train is headin to some destination of extinction. 

Not the greatest of answers but heartfelt.

[Army Guy]

13 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

People want self-determination.  Let provinces determine as much of their own fate as possible.  When the federal government steps on provincial toes too much you get provincial alienation.  All Quebec and AB want is to be respected by the ROC/feds, and to determine their own destiny,.  There's no reason that can't be done within confederation.

Do they really want self determination, and what does that even look like? I get the impression that Canadians are not to concerned on making changes, let alone the massive under taking of changing our entire way of governing, way to much work.  Having more than one tier of government and that is always going to be the case one will always be stepping on the others toes.. I think there is more to the issue than Que, AB wanting to be able to determine their own destiny, I still think all the provinces and Canadians should be striving towards the same goals, and while being able to self determine within limits, one province can not or should not be allowed to create laws or policies contray to the constitution and chater of rights. their must be left and right of arcs , or lines in the sand so to speak.  I think "my opinion" most of the problem is just being treated as an equal, with equal representation in government and your right I don't see a reason it can't be done... Now that would be a legacy project for any PM.

[Army Guy]

8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Dead.  And they will have devised a few dozen meaningless declarations before then, like this.

I fully trust the next generation will look at the long history of broken promises, starting from the Truth and Reconciliation commission and make it happen.

Is the entire document meaningless or are there some valid points not just for AB but for the entire nation. .

[Army Guy]

5 hours ago, Rue said:

In response to Army Guy. As you know Armed Guy, the constitution is a mix of oral protocols, case law precedents that are  now followed by courts, statutes such as the Constitution Act, treaties with native communities the British government signed with these communities prior to Canada's coming into existence but were inherited and recognized as being inherited by our Canadian legal system. Add to that we have a constitutional framework that created a constant legal dynamic or tension between the provinces and federal government over jurisdiction to implement laws and a second  tension between the federal government and a parallel government of the indigenous peoples. 

Then we added a Charter of Rights which now creates yet another tension which now enables individuals to push their individual rights in as wide an application as the law will allow it thanks to the Supreme Court of Canada. So bottom line, you have  provs,  hundreds of indigenous nations,  and now individuals all fighting for more rights coming to court with ambiguous doctrines and legal precedents that don't help matters as they can be argued any way you feel like it.

Then of course to top that all off you have an amendment formula which makes amending any constitutional law damn near  impossible. You would need unanimous consent from all provinces, the feds and the entire nation of nations constellation to change any constitutional doctrine.

Welcome to Canada.

 

OK I get it Rue, it's going to be hard, complicated, So was Vimmy Ridge thought to be impossible and yet it was one of Canada's defining moments, so they have us believe.... but right now it's a bag of hammers, I mean the frame work is there but it needs to be updated, it needs to be fair across the board and it need s to include all the provinces, it does not do that right now,  Add to that this entire first nations issue is now holding up everything, our parliament, our economy, it needs to be addressed, and not by one political party but all parties... 

First nation issue also needs to be addressed, it is holding up everything parliament, our economy, people are losing their jobs. 

Rue this nation has stalled first nations class actions suits before my time , dealing with only those of their choosing, , and we been doing this for how many years , our government is a professional staller, let those indivs have their day in court. after the changes have been done and approved by the senate.

I also agree that this issue is not a military matter, This is not what soldiers are for, they spend very little training time on civilian discourse /riot/ They train for war, and there is nothing pretty about it.... look at OKA, that could have ended very badly during the morning assault, all it would have taken would have been one shot taken by either side and it would have erupted into a blood bath, with the First nations taken the brunt of it. And while the mohawk warriors might have been good warriors, they were no match for modern warfare. 

 

If Justin is trying to convince Canadians that the RCMP do not work for him, he's bat shit crazy, kind of like letting the military pick their own wars to fight....or not to fight. All federal depts. work for Justin, and all Canadians already know that except for Justin.  

[Michael Hardner]

No, it is the greatest of answers.

[Moonlight Graham]

9 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Do they really want self determination, and what does that even look like? I get the impression that Canadians are not to concerned on making changes, let alone the massive under taking of changing our entire way of governing, way to much work.  Having more than one tier of government and that is always going to be the case one will always be stepping on the others toes.. I think there is more to the issue than Que, AB wanting to be able to determine their own destiny, I still think all the provinces and Canadians should be striving towards the same goals, and while being able to self determine within limits, one province can not or should not be allowed to create laws or policies contray to the constitution and chater of rights. their must be left and right of arcs , or lines in the sand so to speak.  I think "my opinion" most of the problem is just being treated as an equal, with equal representation in government and your right I don't see a reason it can't be done... Now that would be a legacy project for any PM.

Alberta is not trying to make laws contrary to the Charter.  They want to sell their oil without Ottawa trying to restrict them.  Ottawa taking a lot of their money and giving it to other provinces at the same time just rubs salt in the wound.

[eyeball]

50 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

They want to sell their oil without Ottawa trying to restrict them.

I'll say, they want to sell their oil with Ottawa ramming it thru BC for them. It's NEP 2.0.

[Moonlight Graham]

31 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I'll say, they want to sell their oil with Ottawa ramming it thru BC for them. It's NEP 2.0.

You think that's why they're mad at Ottawa???

[August1991]

Very, very badly written. Far too many passive verbs.

It is worse than the Quebec 1980 referendum question.

Compare it with the US Declaration of Independence.

========

"We must emphasize that the roots of the anger felt by our people... "

Correction:

"Our people emphasize the roots of our anger... "  

Edited February 23, 2020 by August1991

[Moonlight Graham]

On 2/21/2020 at 7:59 PM, eyeball said:

Reconciliation is just going to be so much easier. 3/4's of the cranky old farts that refuse to get with the program will be either dead or drooling with dementia by the time the Constitution is rejigged.

The Constitution isn't being changed anytime soon.  Quebec didn't sign on to the changes in 1982 and the country almost broke up over it and the attempts to get them on board.

[eyeball]

21 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You think that's why they're mad at Ottawa???

I don't understand why they're mad, aside from having to demonstrate their contemp de rigueur by everything that's right-wing and holy Trudeau is definitely their boy.  He's bought them a pipeline he's far more likely to get the consent for pipelines the Federal Conservatives would cock up so badly trying to get that Canada would still be at it in the year 3020.  He kept the deal Harper made to sell weapons to Saudi Arabia and they still get to blather on about how ethical their oil is so they really don't have much to whine about.

[August1991]

Young, years ago, I lived/worked in Edmonton. This text reminds me of Albertans.

Honest but unable to express themselves.

=====

Heck, even Ernest Hemingway understood that: "I heard" is better than "I was told".

Edited February 23, 2020 by August1991

[eyeball]

28 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The Constitution isn't being changed anytime soon.  Quebec didn't sign on to the changes in 1982 and the country almost broke up over it and the attempts to get them on board.

Of course it isn't no more than the Magna Carta will be. Buffalo has no choice but to stew in it's own juices and bide it's time like everyone else.

[Army Guy]

17 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Alberta is not trying to make laws contrary to the Charter.  They want to sell their oil without Ottawa trying to restrict them.  Ottawa taking a lot of their money and giving it to other provinces at the same time just rubs salt in the wound.

Sorry for not being clear, I was referring to Quebec's new law about religious articles. While Quebec does have the rights to make it's own laws , they should reflect the constitution and charter of rights, this is when Ottawa should be able to intervene. In Alberta's  case they want to be able to do with what they want with they resources right now Ottawa has most if not all the control, as per the buffalo document I sourced. AB and Sask and MAN have not been given that right, as the rest of the provinces do. To solve that there would need to be a small rewrite. 

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

AB and Sask and MAN have not been given that right, as the rest of the provinces do. To solve that there would need to be a small rewrite. 

Excuse me but you know full well BC has far less control over our salmon that AB, Sask and Man have over their fossil fuels.  But don't get me wrong I'm all for a rewrite that puts us on par with these three.

[Army Guy]

20 hours ago, eyeball said:

Excuse me but you know full well BC has far less control over our salmon that AB, Sask and Man have over their fossil fuels.  But don't get me wrong I'm all for a rewrite that puts us on par with these three.

My bad eyeball, it includes the entire west coast, including BC, 

[SkyHigh]

I think it's as easy a redefining Confederation which is essentially a loose  assembly of states which excepts some form of centralization to achieve common goals 

The lines we've drawn(provinces) don't properly represented the geographical differences and issues faced in Canada, here's how i would split it up.

Maritimes plus northern Quebec

Quebec city to Toronto

Western Ontario and Manitoba

Alberta and Saskatchewan

B.C 

These of course are general guidelines, but i feel these separations correspond to the regional reality in Canada

Separated in this manner with a fortification of regional autonomy, and a diminution of centralized power would better respond to each "states" specific needs while still maintaining a Canadian standard.

Hell even if the 95 referendum passed as written, Bouchard expressed the need for some kind of pan-canadian parliament

Thoughts?

 

[Michael Hardner]

48 minutes ago, SkyHigh said:

 

Thoughts?

 

I feel we really need a word to describe the kind of person who proposes these kinds of ideas and thinks they're easy.

 

"Simpletoned" "oxygenius" 

 

Something like that... This Buffalo hot sauce will make the next PC leader ask the waitress for water over and over I am sure...