Pipeline protestors need to be jailed

[bush_cheney2004]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

With regard to the Mohawks who fought so valiantly for the Crown, if the loyalty is real, what’s with the Mohawk flag raging at all these blockades?  Are the Mohawks divided on this supposed cause or is this the position of their leadership?   Which leadership?  The cause seems incoherent and every radical special interest is latching on.  

 

OK, but the Mohawks or any other Native population cannot be expected to be any more unified than any other group or leadership in Canada.  First Nations are not a monolithic block.

 

[Dougie93]

14 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I’d like to think that isn’t true. We have a thriving, peaceful society, a model in many ways

Not due to Confederation, rather Confederation is the primary source of corruption & dysfunction, Canada is a burden to the "society" not a boon.

[eyeball]

22 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I just don’t think people realize how fragile it is.  

I think people are too attached to their misplaced concreteness.  I've been there done that.  It hurt standing amongst the shards of shattered illusions but as I waked away they softened and became like petals that soothed the sole.

Okay so its only ankle deep but its at least a mile wide - looks like I'm standing on the water that way.

Edited February 15, 2020 by eyeball

[jacee]

2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

As long as one is prepared to pay the price for breaking the laws. One cannot indulge in civil disobedience and then complain if one is arrested, charged, convicted and jailed.  Figuratively speaking, of course.

That's a bit excessive for old ladies walking in the street. 

 

[jacee]

6 hours ago, scribblet said:

Heard a Native activist today who says more or less, they do not recognize the Charter or our laws, their laws supercede them, we are on their land, they never ceded it, we are breaking their laws.  Don't know what the answer is to that, but I'm pretty sure it would get violent if we used force. 

Why would you?

Sounds like pretty straight up truth to me. 

[Dougie93]

So long as you cling to the archaic British imperialist zombie legacy project called "Canada", you're stuck with this dysfunction and it will never be resolved.

Reconciliation is a fool's errand, it will just keep receding into the distance, always on the horizon, but never achieved.

Canada itself is the problem, it can't be fixed, nor should you even try, since it's just a collection of entrenched corporate and union interests running a company town to their own narrow benefit while screwing everybody else.

F@ck Canada, let it burn.

 

[jacee]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

What is the price for breaking the laws though?  At a certain point the police have to enforce or they lose credibility.  A government that tolerates sabotage of railways and ports is a failed government.  

Perhaps it's a strong and necessary message to governments and business and industry.

It's better to negotiate. 

The duty of the Crown to consult ... still needs to be done. 

I'm sure the Queen is aware by now that her Honour was not upheld.

The law is the law.

I'll be expecting to see improvements there. 

Edited February 15, 2020 by jacee

[bush_cheney2004]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

....The Indians don't have to snipe at anybody, all they have to do is put things on the railway tracks at random places, and that grinds things to a halt. 

 

I found this hard to believe, until I looked at a railway map for Canada.    This vulnerability could be exploited by any group, but the government would move against non-natives far more readily.  

Edited February 15, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

I found this hard to believe, until I looked at a railway map for Canada.    This vulnerability could be exploited by any group, but the government would move against non-natives far more readily.  

The Natives are the only ones who are astride the lines of communications tho.

The power which they project against Canada is persistence, they are living right on top of the lines, from coast to coast.

They don't have to use much force, they just have to use a tiny amount of force, over a vast area, checkmate.

The worst case scenario fear for the government in Ottawa would be escalation beyond their control, at which point forced to go to Washington for asssitance

The military does train for it, we trained for it back in the 90's when the government was considering raiding the Mohawk tobacco smugglers but then got cold feet,

They are afraid of the Mohawks, because the Mohawks are both strategically positioned, but also resolved to fight rather than cower with the meeker NDPindians.

[bush_cheney2004]

10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The Natives are the only ones who are astride the lines of communications tho.

 

Yes, particularly in British Columbia.

 

Quote

They are afraid of the Mohawks, because the Mohawks are both strategically positioned, but also resolved to fight rather than cower with the meeker NDPindians.

 

We had Mohawk warriors in the Corps (USMC)...they were fierce and ready to make somebody else die for their country.   Very good with knives !

[Dougie93]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

We had Mohawk warriors in the Corps (USMC)...they were fierce and ready to make somebody else die for their country.   Very good with knives !

I've been toe to toe with them, and they ain't no supermen, but they won't back down, you can't intimidate them, they're not afraid of the army, they will defy you to kill them, or back off, and the government backs off, rather than shoot them down in front of the international media camped out waiting to film it.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

I've been toe to toe with them, and they ain't no supermen, but they won't back down, you can't intimidate them, they're not afraid of the army, they will defy you to kill them, or back off, and the government backs off, rather than shoot them down in front of the international media camped out waiting to film it.

 

Is this the first time that one First Nation's protest has caused a rally of support from other groups and non-natives in other parts of the country ?

That would be a game changer.

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Is this the first time that one First Nation's protest has caused a rally of support from other groups and non-natives in other parts of the country ?

That would be a game changer.

Well the lefties are always up for a protest festival, the sea change is basically the Millennial Generation being of that age, right in the wheelhouse of their protest years.

Back in 1990 there were lots of protestors too, I was Force Protection so I actually encountered more protestors than Indians, they were coming from all over, there were lots of Americans showing up to rabble rouse with the Canadian lefties.

We were on high alert, the chain of command was spooked, like the armed guards at the gates of every military base were coming on our own buses, I guess to check if we were indians disguised as soldiers, it was hilarious, the level of overreaction that 50 armed Mohawks can incite in the ranks of Canadian government.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Well the lefties are always up for a protest festival, the sea change is basically the Millennial Generation being of that age, right in the wheelhouse of their protest years.

 

...and much easier to organize with smartphones and social media.

 

Quote

Back in 1990 there were lots of protestors too, I was Force Protection so I actually encountered more protestors than Indians, they were coming from all over, there were lots of Americans showing up to rabble rouse with the Canadian lefties.

 

No doubt...we get Canadians down here as well for all kinds of protests....lefties love this stuff no matter where it is.

 

Quote

We were on high alert, the chain of command was spooked, like the armed guards at the gates of every military base were coming on our own buses, I guess to check if we were indians disguised as soldiers, it was hilarious, the level of overreaction that 50 armed Mohawks can incite in the ranks of Canadian government.

 

It seems that government and media are more afraid of the worse case optics (e.g. Oka) than the actual issues at hand.

Who needs propane in February ?

 

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It seems that government and media are more afraid of the worse case optics (e.g. Oka) than the actual issues at hand.

 

Priggish Canada fears calling attention to its racist colonial apartheid state, who knew?

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Priggish Canada fears calling attention to its racist colonial apartheid state, who knew?

 

OK, but this isn't their first rodeo.

What has worked to resolve the impasse before ?

...just do that again and wait for the next protest.

"Reconciliation" will have to be rebranded because Trudeau has screwed it up !

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

OK, but this isn't their first rodeo.

What has worked to resolve the impasse before ?

...just do that again and wait for the next protest.

"Reconciliation" will have to be rebranded because Trudeau has screwed it up !

Well, it's a powder keg because it's a stalemate which can lead to brinkmanship.

Luckily, there has never been that "Bloody Sunday" moment, the point of no return where one of the sides or both suffer some serious casualties.

Like if the cops launch a raid and the Indians shoot a bunch of them dead, or conversely the cops get trigger happy and mow a bunch of Indians down.

If that ever happens, there will be no going back, Canada will be fundamentally altered by the revanchism in the wake of it, and anytime there is a confrontation, it could happen.

[Dougie93]

It's like back in 1990 we got a little amped up because it was an operation and it was in Canada with the media watching.

But we weren't amped up with a blood lust, there was no hate, we didn't hate the Mohawks, we weren't angry, it was just a mission, it wasn't like Northern Ireland.

We basically sympathized with the Mohawks, in that the SQ botched the whole operation and then we the army were being called in to clean up their mess.

The concept of operations was basically wait them out, cordon it off and stand by until they decided that they had made their point.

Again, if at any point there is a contact which turns bloody, that would all change, it could get really nasty really quick, in the event of a Bloody Sunday.

I mean, it was comical at times, like when the troops were sent into the Res in the Chinook, and the Mohawks basically beat the crap out of them with fists,

A Mohawk walks right up to a troop with a light machine gun, punches him in the face, and takes the gun from him

Because the troops wouldn't open fire,  because they didn't have the green light to light the place up, the Mohawks called the government's bluff, it was a fiasco.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

17 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

...If that ever happens, there will be no going back, Canada will be fundamentally altered by the revanchism in the wake of it, and anytime there is a confrontation, it could happen.

 

Yep...that's why they are called "confrontations".    "Normally", the cops/RCMP just give notice, bring in the buses and arrest everybody.   Charges are usually dismissed later so as not to rekindle the fire and provide a political platform in the courts.

The "wait them out strategy" may not work this time unless Ottawa and the provinces want a Berlin Airlift.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The "wait them out strategy" may not work this time unless Ottawa and the provinces want a Berlin Airlift.

Actually I think Justin Trudeau has a temper, like with Admiral Norman, there is a point where he could be baited into an overreach in a fit of pique.

The thing about this situation is that the Mohawks are just doing this to assert themselves as being the heavies for the Indians, but it's not in defense of Mohawk land.

Therefore I don't think the Mohawks will take this one all the way to the mattresses, they are just probing to see what they can get away without suffering consequences.

[Dougie93]

This really is Kobayashi Maru for the government because this is not actually a dispute between BC and the Wetsuens

This is a dispute between the elected Wetsuen Chiefs and these unelected "Tribal Chiefs" who are basically religious figures in effect

80% of the Wetsuen voted in favour of the pipeline, the 20% who lost the vote are trying to overthrow the result by pulling stunts and appealing to the Thunberg Cult.

[bush_cheney2004]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

This really is Kobayashi Maru for the government because this is not actually a dispute between BC and the Wetsuens

This is a dispute between the elected Wetsuen Chiefs and these unelected "Tribal Chiefs" who are basically religious figures in effect

80% of the Wetsuen voted in favour of the pipeline, the 20% who lost the vote are trying to overthrow the result by pulling stunts and appealing to the Thunberg Cult.

 

Yes...it challenges the entire charade that has been First Nation's governance for generations.  

The cure may be worse than the disease.

...time to get the Queen involved !

[Dougie93]

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Yes...it challenges the entire charade that has been First Nation's governance for generations.  

The cure may be worse than the disease.

...time to get the Queen involved !

They really are like little mafias, each one with its own little incestuous paradigm, trying to herd these cats is a fool's errand, but Canada actually serves no other purpose.

 

 

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

They really are like little mafias, each one with its own little incestuous paradigm, trying to herd these cats is a fool's errand, but Canada actually serves no other purpose.

 

But that is the Kobayashi Maru scenario...if the Natives were unified under one indigenous governance, they would have even more political and economic power.

Canada wants to keep the "little mafias" fragmented....and it is foolish to speak of the white man's "democracy" in native culture.

British Columbia is a bigger hot mess because of all the unceded land.

[Dougie93]

30 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

But that is the Kobayashi Maru scenario...if the Natives were unified under one indigenous governance, they would have even more political and economic power.

Canada wants to keep the "little mafias" fragmented....and it is foolish to speak of the white man's "democracy" in native culture.

British Columbia is a bigger hot mess because of all the unceded land.

The government doesn't have to worry about the Indians becoming unified, the indians are divided along the same lines as the whypipo : NDPIndians v. Neolibdians