Canada without the West

[WestCanMan]

21 hours ago, eyeball said:

No, because you can only draw down your natural capital for so long.

What is it that conservatives don't get about conserving anyway?  It's like conservatives have attached a greater importance to driving the planet off a cliff for the sheer pleasure of pissing off progressives.

1 Canadian oil is the very least of what harming the planet right now.

2 Progressives is the mafia name for leftists. 
 

 

[WestCanMan]

20 hours ago, eyeball said:

You honestly believe you can draw down a bank without end and not go bankrupt? Seriously?

I get this but just not on a scale that seems to stem from a belief that we have a bunch of planets for the easy taking on hand.  I didn't say turn off the taps but I did say I stop using them to fuel the growth of the biggest most dangerous dictatorship on the planet. I would have thought someone who whines a lot about the pain of having to go off and fight a war would understand why....but you're someone who thinks you can empty out the bank without fail so maybe its just you.

What you fail to understand is that our oil is not the number 1 enemy of planet earth. 
You’re just being sucked in by foreign oil propagandists and our PM whose family’s companies have been selling Saudi oil since he was a baby. 
4,000,000 barrels worth of oil come in per tanker, through the pristine tidewaters that Trudeau says our oil can’t go through, and you are busy fighting against Canadian oil lol. It’s way better to ship it all the way from SA just like it’s better not to eat local produce. 
You never cease to amaze me. 

[Argus]

9 hours ago, August1991 said:

Richer?

In a 1900 world. We now live in a 2000 world.

Without Alberta, Saskatchewan and northern BC, Ontario/Quebec could have a diverse society that creates wealth.

You live in a province and are among a people who have implemented any number of laws, some of them clearly unconstitutional, in order to fight against diversity. So don't give me any crap about your love of diversity. As for 'creating wealth' if diversity did that then Africa would be the richest place on Earth. Diversity does not create wealth, it creates disunity. Quebec has been behind most of our disunity and has been a have-not province my entire life, sucking on the federal teat. Getting rid of it would make the rest of us richer and more united.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Argus

[Army Guy]

On 2/11/2020 at 4:21 PM, eyeball said:

You honestly believe you can draw down a bank without end and not go bankrupt? Seriously?

I get this but just not on a scale that seems to stem from a belief that we have a bunch of planets for the easy taking on hand.  I didn't say turn off the taps but I did say I stop using them to fuel the growth of the biggest most dangerous dictatorship on the planet. I would have thought someone who whines a lot about the pain of having to go off and fight a war would understand why....but you're someone who thinks you can empty out the bank without fail so maybe its just you.

NO, what I do believe in is that this nations lacks the leadership and will,  to cut the hand off that feeds us. I don't give a shit what the science says or what will happen if we do not stop creating more carbon,  If you think the majority of Canadians are willing to accept a major life changing moment that could send us into economical decline and major live changing effects your the one that is delusional , it is not going to happen.  The proof is in the pudding, look at the liberals climate change plan, look at the cons climate plan see anything of meaning in there...F*** no, what message does that send TO YOU....

WOW , so it's not about saving mother earth, it's all about selling oil to China , is that what your saying, you'd be OK with pumping oil through BC if we sold it to other countries ?

And if you think my message about going off to war , and all the pain it caused your wrong.... it was about our nation turning it's back on those that went off to fight, it's about being deceived into thinking our nation would have the balls to look after those men and women once they returned,

It's about money thats all Canadians understand and worship, it was never about having our backs of soldiers who sacrificed everything for an ungrateful nation.   

[eyeball]

5 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

NO, what I do believe in is that this nations lacks the leadership and will,  to cut the hand off that feeds us. I don't give a shit what the science says or what will happen if we do not stop creating more carbon, 

Well, that's pretty much enough right there to justify writing everything else you might have to say about the topic.

Quote

If you think the majority of Canadians are willing to accept a major life changing moment that could send us into economical decline and major live changing effects your the one that is delusional , it is not going to happen.  The proof is in the pudding, look at the liberals climate change plan, look at the cons climate plan see anything of meaning in there...F*** no, what message does that send TO YOU....

That we're basically governed by a duopoly that'll still take us to the same place anyway.  Listen to yourself, you're talking about losing something we don't even have in hand.  The threat of this life changing effect is like the never ending imminent threat of communism, terrorism, Islamofascism... 

Canada looks like it's doing just fine.

Quote

WOW , so it's not about saving mother earth, it's all about selling oil to China , is that what your saying, you'd be OK with pumping oil through BC if we sold it to other countries ?

No I wouldn't trust Ottawa to ensure the oil still didn't fall into China's hands. It's too fungible.  In any case its very interesting that is no one seems to concerned about oil falling into the hands of dangerous communist dictatorships anymore. Anyone else recall all the trillions that were spent and millions of lives sacrificed to keep oil out of the hands of communist dictatorships?   What's with that anyway?

 

Quote

 

And if you think my message about going off to war , and all the pain it caused your wrong.... it was about our nation turning it's back on those that went off to fight, it's about being deceived into thinking our nation would have the balls to look after those men and women once they returned,

It's about money thats all Canadians understand and worship, it was never about having our backs of soldiers who sacrificed everything for an ungrateful nation.

 

So you're pissed off about greedy uncaring money worshiping Canadians losing money they don't even have yet? You figure this money will put you anymore in line for anymore funding than you are now?  That would be self-delusional.  

 

[Army Guy]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

 

 

So you're pissed off about greedy uncaring money worshiping Canadians losing money they don't even have yet? You figure this money will put you anymore in line for anymore funding than you are now?  That would be self-delusional.  

 

Justin just spent 21 bil dollars to raise the personal income rebate... we gave 4.5 bil to fight climate change in 3 rd world countries that using that money to build roads to drive fossil fuel cars and trucks. the list is to long here to list , don't tell me there was not enough money to look after a few vets...

[jacee]

On 2/11/2020 at 11:40 AM, WestCanMan said:

What people fail to understand about bad, bad oil is that exports are more important than GDP. 

...

Without the trillion dollars per decade that we export in oil (and that's at 50% of what it's worth now) we wouldn't be able to bring shiny new toys into the country. Our trade deficits would be astronomical.

Since that isn't sustainable now, what's your next plan? 

[jacee]

16 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Justin just spent 21 bil dollars to raise the personal income rebate... we gave 4.5 bil to fight climate change in 3 rd world countries that using that money to build roads to drive fossil fuel cars and trucks. the list is to long here to list , don't tell me there was not enough money to look after a few vets...

Of course there is. We just have to stop the flow of corporate welfare, especially fossil fuel subsidies, and look after Canadians instead. 

Edited February 13, 2020 by jacee

[WestCanMan]

3 hours ago, jacee said:

Since that isn't sustainable now, what's your next plan? 

The plan is to get hundreds of billions of dollars for our oil while every other country on earth is doing the exact same thing, while at the same time not giving other countries hundreds of billions of dollars. 

Yeah, that's my plan, and I know doesn't make sense to you. 

[Argus]

5 hours ago, jacee said:

Of course there is. We just have to stop the flow of corporate welfare, especially fossil fuel subsidies, and look after Canadians instead. 

I'm all for stopping corporate welfare. What the extreme left calls 'subsidies for fossil fuels' however is fantasy economics. Not charging oil companies tens of billions because of the CO2 their oil will eventually emit in some other country does not give us any money to spend if we shut them down. Instead we have to pay money to the tens of thousands of unemployed workers.

[Army Guy]

On 2/12/2020 at 6:16 PM, eyeball said:

Well, that's pretty much enough right there to justify writing everything else you might have to say about the topic.

That we're basically governed by a duopoly that'll still take us to the same place anyway.  Listen to yourself, you're talking about losing something we don't even have in hand.  The threat of this life changing effect is like the never ending imminent threat of communism, terrorism, Islamofascism... 

Canada looks like it's doing just fine.

No I wouldn't trust Ottawa to ensure the oil still didn't fall into China's hands. It's too fungible.  In any case its very interesting that is no one seems to concerned about oil falling into the hands of dangerous communist dictatorships anymore. Anyone else recall all the trillions that were spent and millions of lives sacrificed to keep oil out of the hands of communist dictatorships?   What's with that anyway?

 

So you're pissed off about greedy uncaring money worshiping Canadians losing money they don't even have yet? You figure this money will put you anymore in line for anymore funding than you are now?  That would be self-delusional.  

 

Your whole argument is based on stop using fossil fuels and every thing is going to be sunshine and rainbows.. And it is not, Canadians are all about the money, and will not trade their current quality of life for something that is going to be degraded a lot...the have not provinces will run up huge debts trying to stay a float, the have provinces will get a taste what it is like to have to do with out...What political party is going to agree to such policies that will make a difference....here and globally....name one other than the green party....

There is NO substitute for fossil fuels on the horizon.. we will always have a need for fossil fuel products be it lubricants, pavement, plastics, to name a few, and until the science guys can figure out all of that, there is no shutting off the taps...

 

[Army Guy]

8 hours ago, jacee said:

Of course there is. We just have to stop the flow of corporate welfare, especially fossil fuel subsidies, and look after Canadians instead. 

Thats what you think the problem is ... the problem is Canadians don't give a shit, or this would have been solved years ago...it's not about fossil fuels and subsidies conspiracy theory's, it all about what Canadians want.... 

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Your whole argument is based on stop using fossil fuels and every thing is going to be sunshine and rainbows.. And it is not, Canadians are all about the money, and will not trade their current quality of life for something that is going to be degraded a lot...the have not provinces will run up huge debts trying to stay a float, the have provinces will get a taste what it is like to have to do with out...What political party is going to agree to such policies that will make a difference....here and globally....name one other than the green party....

There is NO substitute for fossil fuels on the horizon.. we will always have a need for fossil fuel products be it lubricants, pavement, plastics, to name a few, and until the science guys can figure out all of that, there is no shutting off the taps...

 

Its's based on using less, we can turn those taps to reduce the flow. Yes there are substitutes and alternatives on the horizon and more just over it. No it won't be all sunshine and rainbows.  It would have been a lot easier if we'd started down this road years earlier and it'll only get harder the longer we delay. We've been seducing the pooch too long now. It's time for action, hard action that didn't need to be this hard but you people insisted.

Developing infrastructure for exporting fossil fuels goes in a direction we should have been moving away from years ago.

[Zeitgeist]

Sort of reminds me of being told to go to bed early like a good little boy — so the adults can drink.  The US is drilling oil like never before, fracking dangerously, and making money hand over fist, but we have to close our mines because, climate change.  Climate change may be real, but not everyone will pay the same price to prevent it or fight it.  

I will only support climate change initiatives that serve other economic purposes at the same time, so we’re not killing ourselves making sacrifices that might not make much difference to climate change.  

Edited February 14, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[August1991]

On 2/12/2020 at 12:58 PM, Argus said:

You live in a province and are among a people who have implemented any number of laws, some of them clearly unconstitutional, in order to fight against diversity. So don't give me any crap about your love of diversity. As for 'creating wealth' if diversity did that then Africa would be the richest place on Earth. Diversity does not create wealth, it creates disunity. Quebec has been behind most of our disunity and has been a have-not province my entire life, sucking on the federal teat. Getting rid of it would make the rest of us richer and more united.

"You live in a province and are among a people who have implemented any number of laws, some of them clearly unconstitutional, in order to fight against diversity..... "

And in which province do you live, Argus?

======

French/English, Catholic/Protestant - however we are divided, or politicians choose to divide us, I reckon that society works best if individuals agree.

==============

Sorry for this thread thrift. The OP was a question about western Canadians creating their own country.

Edited February 14, 2020 by August1991

[WestCanMan]

12 hours ago, August1991 said:

"You live in a province and are among a people who have implemented any number of laws, some of them clearly unconstitutional, in order to fight against diversity..... "

So you are conceding that point? You know that you should, right?

Quote

And in which province do you live, Argus?

I have lived in Alberta, Nova Scotia and BC and I can promise you that none of those provinces have legislation promoting discrimination. 

[Army Guy]

On 2/13/2020 at 9:24 PM, eyeball said:

Its's based on using less, we can turn those taps to reduce the flow. Yes there are substitutes and alternatives on the horizon and more just over it. No it won't be all sunshine and rainbows.  It would have been a lot easier if we'd started down this road years earlier and it'll only get harder the longer we delay. We've been seducing the pooch too long now. It's time for action, hard action that didn't need to be this hard but you people insisted.

Developing infrastructure for exporting fossil fuels goes in a direction we should have been moving away from years ago.

Eyeball, you use the words like "you people", like I don't give a shit about the environment around me,  you know jack shit about me, I already have an R2000 plus home, that is completely sprayed foamed,  top and bottom, it has a heat pump , pellet stove,  and solar panels on the roof with battery back up..., that makes my electrical bill 0 dollars, because as of yet NB power will not issue credits for neg power use.... I also drive a V-8 4x4, because I need to get to work, and the NB  provincial government does not always plow the secondary roads until late am...  What I do know is the people in Canada are not ready to give up any of their quality of life to save the planet, thats what I know... and will not give a shit until it is to late, take a look around you think the liberal climate policy is going to get the job done, you can call me what ever name you want, but it is not going to change the majority of Canadians decisions. We live in a fossil fuel economy and will for sometime....

 

 

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Eyeball, you use the words like "you people", like I don't give a shit about the environment around me,  you know jack shit about me,

Can you tell me what species of tree I live in Jack?

Get back to me when you're done pissing up a rope.

[Army Guy]

Talk to me once Justin approves that mega site in Alberta....tell me he is serious about climate change, then lets see how the rest of Canada acts towards it....money rules this nation, it always wins …. one day your going to wake up to that fact...you have to much faith in Canadians making the right chioce...

[Zeitgeist]

But what is the right decision?  Tech Frontier is worth about 70 billion dollars in revenue.  That’s a lot of jobs and money for valued programs and services.  If we don’t sell the oil, other countries will.  The US is full steam ahead on fracking.  China is still building new coal generating stations.  We can be the poor Boy Scouts and get “Sucker” tattoos on our foreheads.  

Let’s use some of the proceeds to build the infrastructure and communities for an affordable low carbon future.  

[Argus]

43 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

But what is the right decision?  Tech Frontier is worth about 70 billion dollars in revenue.  That’s a lot of jobs and money for valued programs and services.  If we don’t sell the oil, other countries will.

They approved a pair of cement factories, one in Quebec, one in Ontario, which will employ, at best, a few hundred people. They swept aside all the regulations and environmental rules to ease the way. Those two cement factories will emit about 75% as much CO2 as the Tech Frontier project. And nobody gives a damn.

CO2 is only a problem when it comes from the oil and gas industry. And even then only when it's out west.

[Grand Mal]

On 2/13/2020 at 3:08 PM, Army Guy said:

Your whole argument is based on stop using fossil fuels and every thing is going to be sunshine and rainbows.. And it is not, Canadians are all about the money, and will not trade their current quality of life for something that is going to be degraded a lot...the have not provinces will run up huge debts trying to stay a float, the have provinces will get a taste what it is like to have to do with out...What political party is going to agree to such policies that will make a difference....here and globally....name one other than the green party....

There is NO substitute for fossil fuels on the horizon.. we will always have a need for fossil fuel products be it lubricants, pavement, plastics, to name a few, and until the science guys can figure out all of that, there is no shutting off the taps...

 

Not on the horizon, the substitute is right here right now. Electric technology is advancing at a geometric rate. Electric planes, ships, buses, all are either commercially viable right now or just on the doorstep.

Of course it won't happen overnight and of course there'll always be a need for oil products but not all oil products are fuel.

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, Argus said:

They approved a pair of cement factories, one in Quebec, one in Ontario, which will employ, at best, a few hundred people. They swept aside all the regulations and environmental rules to ease the way. Those two cement factories will emit about 75% as much CO2 as the Tech Frontier project. And nobody gives a damn.

CO2 is only a problem when it comes from the oil and gas industry. And even then only when it's out west.

I give a damn. Did they let the one in Quebec mix asbestos into the cement too?

[Army Guy]

17 hours ago, Grand Mal said:

Not on the horizon, the substitute is right here right now. Electric technology is advancing at a geometric rate. Electric planes, ships, buses, all are either commercially viable right now or just on the doorstep.

Of course it won't happen overnight and of course there'll always be a need for oil products but not all oil products are fuel.

I get it electric vehs are coming they have been coming for atleast 20 years now, and yet fossil fuel cars , trucks buses, are still flying off the shelf, with electric vehs lagging some where in the dust... How many electric semi trucks are on the road today ? how many electric planes for cargo or passengers are in the air today ? Are they even in mass production yet....NO...The tech is not mature enough for people to start flying around town in electric planes or semi trucks... Nor is it mature enough to even think about reducing our requirements for fossil fuels....10 to 20 years from now is not around the corner...it would take that long just to build the Infra structure required to support it, lets not even mention all the new power generation plants that would be needed.  

But you did not touch on what we are going to heat our homes with, how are we going to generate all this extra electricity ? not to mention the current cost of electricity. who is going to be able to afford it... there are many in NB right now that can barely affords to keep the lights on....and NB power is not going to make it cheaper, but they continue to increase it..

Then I should be able to look at governmental policies and atleast see we are working towards that goal, that is making infra structure to support this massive increase in electrical power usage, and we all know how hard it is to get a major project up and going in this country... what about our climate change policies do they even come close to matching all the talk coming out of the climate change camps....2050 is our goal, it is hard to get motivated about all this when our countries leadership is not taking it seriously, nor is the rest of the globe....

 

[cannuck]

On 2/12/2020 at 11:31 AM, WestCanMan said:

4,000,000 barrels worth of oil come in per tanker, through the pristine tidewaters that Trudeau says our oil can’t go through,

Just a little technical point:   there are NO vessels capable of carrying 4mm bbls at one time.  There WAS one, long ago scrapped, and there are only two remaining ULCCs at 3mm.  The normal size is VLCCs that are either 1mm or 2mm.   Anything larger has too much draft to use the English Channel.