Ukrainian Passenger Aircraft Crashes in Iran

[Guest ProudConservative]

This is war... People die... and if you promote war... Go join the army get your own legs blown off. Then the government can claim disability and spend all day on theses forums telling people about your great adventures in the middle east.

It was drilled into me, when I went to York University, what the Iraq war was all about. I was a liberal back then, and even though i'm a fiscal-conservative... I'll never sell out and be a neocon.

What everyone fails to realize, is that every cable news outlet profits off war footage. A trillion dollar military industrial complex can stay safe in America... while they send thousands of troops overseas to get slaughtered. When they fly the dead bodies back, they will get to invoice all the fuel in their planes.

Millions of brainwashed American will love the great manufactures who supply custom Aerospace parts to out military. Some will dine and wine at industry conferences, while other get their legs blown off, or enjoy a nice piece of cancer from depleted uranium. Yes.. America puts radioactive waste in bullets, and sprays them on the battlefield. So you tell me who the most sadistic people in the world are.

Edited January 11, 2020 by ProudConservative

[Guest ProudConservative]

Iranian government might hang a few people, or kill a few protesters. Is it worth $5 Trillion dollars and a million causalities to save a few hundred protesters that might get arrested in Iran? You think the Iranians will thank us... "Well geez, I have a new government now, but I just went through a traumatic war, and friends and relatives are dead... So thank you America for imposing democracy on us."

If the Iranians are so desperate and oppressed, they will fight their own war. Right now they are enjoying a simple but relaxing life, and don't want Americans to F@ck it up.

 

Edited January 11, 2020 by ProudConservative

[Guest ProudConservative]

People need to contact the military industrial complex, and let them know that the world is waking up... Bring guilt upon them, until they no longer have the will to commit these atrocities. One by one, they will turn against their own war machine... once the cost to their conscience, becomes unbearable. You need to use guilt through attrition.

Everyone gets goosebumps including Trump, and in this case goosebumps is our best tool for world peace.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Iran regime spokesperson has spoken again and again.

[Rue]

8 hours ago, ProudConservative said:

This is war... People die... and if you promote war... Go join the army get your own legs blown off. Then the government can claim disability and spend all day on theses forums telling people about your great adventures in the middle east.

It was drilled into me, when I went to York University, what the Iraq war was all about. I was a liberal back then, and even though i'm a fiscal-conservative... I'll never sell out and be a neocon.

What everyone fails to realize, is that every cable news outlet profits off war footage. A trillion dollar military industrial complex can stay safe in America... while they send thousands of troops overseas to get slaughtered. When they fly the dead bodies back, they will get to invoice all the fuel in their planes.

Millions of brainwashed American will love the great manufactures who supply custom Aerospace parts to out military. Some will dine and wine at industry conferences, while other get their legs blown off, or enjoy a nice piece of cancer from depleted uranium. Yes.. America puts radioactive waste in bullets, and sprays them on the battlefield. So you tell me who the most sadistic people in the world are.

Your unfocused rants are incoherent. Showing pictures of a child designed to inflame emotions again just lower your discourse to a level of exploitive irrational babbling.

If you can't focus on the specific issues and discuss them run along. Your unfocused anger is a waste.

[Rue]

The issue if we can focus on it, is: we now know with certainty the Iranian military shot down the Ukrainian Airliner using a missile that explodes and sends metal fragments in a spray motion riddling the target with  thousands of shrapnel pieces. The missile itself does not hit the plane, its spray of shrapnel does. Then the target filled without thousands of holes and on fire, explodes from lack of structural integrity and wide spread flames ignited by each shrapnel piece and assault on the gas tanks that spreads.

The question that must be answered is why the Ukrainian Airline Station Manager in Tehran on the ground and the pilot of the airline both would have agreed to go back up knowing the airspace was hostile and there was a red zone and no other aircraft were in the skies because of the very immediate risk of being accidentally shot down in the aftermath of the earlier missile firings. It makes no sense the Station Manager and pilot knowing these conditions would still go back in the air. From a legal perspective, the Ukrainian Airline is 100% negligent for the decision. The Iranian military error is a secondary cause because had the jet stayed grounded until full day light and conditions had cooled off this probably would not have happened.

That is the issue. The unfocused rants only exploit a sad mistake.

I also without meaning to jump to conclusions have to ask the Ukrainian Station Manager, what the phack were you thinking?

 

[CITIZEN_2015]

How Iran nation is reacting to this murderous act:

 

Some video footage on social media has shown sporadic protests in central Tehran, with people calling for resignations and accusing officials of dishonesty.

Protests were reported at the Sharif and Amir Kabir universities.

Some demonstrators chanted for the resignation of the commander in chief - Ayatollah Khamanei.

A number of social media users asked why Iranian officials had not accepted responsibility earlier, appearing only to do so after international pressure.

One wrote: "Your mistake was inadvertent. Your lie was intentional. People should not be lied to under the pretext of expediency."

Another questioned how an air defence system could mistake a Boeing 737 with a missile.

Some users changed profile pictures to black to mourn the loss of the people on the plane.

Sadegh Zibakalam, a political scientist and former university professor based in Tehran, said it was difficult to see how officials could escape from this as "just about everyone has lied during the past three days".

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51077788

 

Again the whole world will soon find out that Iran's murderous regime intentionally shot down the commercial aircraft so that they can blame it om Americans but their plan backfired as America did not retaliate for regime's missile attack of American bases so they had to admit it were them but they lied and said it was a mistake. Mistake my ass. As one social media writer said how the hell they could mistake am aircraft leaving their airport towards the border be mistaken with a small missile? Murderers bastards and same goes for the ones who try to hide the extend of crime and directly or indirectly defend this murderous regime by claiming we must mind our own business. 63 Canadians murdered and the paid thug want us to mind our own business because we are broke!!!!!!!!.

Edited January 11, 2020 by CITIZEN_2015

[CITIZEN_2015]

Iran protests resume crowd chanting death to dictator again

Iran is facing mounting criticism at home and abroad after admiring to “unintentionally” downing a Ukrainian passenger jet this week, killing all 176 people on board, having initially denied responsibility.

 

Iran’s Revolutionary Guards (paid thugs) revealed on Saturday that it knew hours later that its air defences had caused the crash, but for days after the incident, numerous Iranian officials denied mounting claims that the plane was likely downed by a missile.

As time passed, however, the evidence became too overwhelming to deny. Videos posted online by witnesses showed the plane apparently being struck by a fast-moving object, before plummeting to the ground.  

In Twitter messages, angry Iranians condemned the government for the attempted cover-up, and video clips on social media showed a large protest at a university in Tehran, where students chanted “Death to the dictator” in protest at the government's handling of the plane crash.

 

“Unintentionally? What does it mean? They concealed this huge tragic news for days just to mourn for Soleimani. Shame on you,” said Reza Ghadyani, in Tabriz city.

It is the second time in recent months that protests have targeted the Iranian leadership. In November, young and working-class Iranians took to the streets to protest against fuel price rises. The protests turned political, with demonstrators burning pictures of senior officials and calling on clerical rulers to step down.

Somewhere between 300 and 1,500 protesters are believed to have been killed in the crackdown that followed.

The Iranian government’s handling of the incident has sparked anger in the international community, too.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iran-plane-crash-ukraine-flight-ps752-victims-deaths-trump-a9279756.html

Edited January 11, 2020 by CITIZEN_2015

[Rue]

I just read from QueenMandy who I trust and I will keep reading but she claims 12 jets were in the air  prior to the Ukrainian jet which makes a huge difference. It means an all clear was given by civil authorities and Ukrainian Airlines would not be liable. It also makes sense because I can not imagine a Station Manager or Pilot clearing the flight without an all clear. It just did not make sense. If  what she says is true, its a tragic mistake which Iran has to take responsibility for otherwise they should not have given an all clear and let flights back up. I can see how it was a mistake. I doubt it was deliberate but I could easily see how someone made a mistake. I do not see anyone exploiting this tragedy from any side and so it should be. Full facts are needed. I genuinely could not find evidence of other flights in the air. Anyone with more info please share. I would also be interested on how different the other flight paths were from the Ukrainian airlines jet and why it was the only one locked in on. Did the pilot make the mistake of flying outside a designated flight path? I suppose that is possible as well. There is so much missing to be definitive.

[eyeball]

40 minutes ago, Rue said:

 its a tragic mistake which Iran has to take responsibility for

Iran has taken responsibility for its role in the tragic mistake that led to this, now it's America's turn.

It takes two to Tango.

[bush_cheney2004]

10 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Iran has taken responsibility for its role in the tragic mistake that led to this, now it's America's turn.

It takes two to Tango.

 

The U.S. already has taken responsibility....easily detecting Iran's communications and missile signatures from space and reporting same.

You're welcome....

[SpankyMcFarland]

I’d like to see Putin following Iran’s lead and finally admitting his country’s role in the downing of MH17. 

[-TSS-]

A lot of Canadians and Swedes among the passengers. Looking at the list of the passengers names it is a bit difficult to say who were Canadians and who were Swedes. 

[Rue]

In the legal sense,and I use the civil tort of accidental death concept, BOTH Ukrainian Airlines and the Government of Iran, will be found in a civil court, jointly and severally liable for the accidental death of the passengers and employees of Ukrainian airlines on the flight that was shot out of the air.

This is because of the concept of sboth absolute  liability and joint and several liability.

If you are an airline you have NO defence to your plane crashing for ANY reason even in this case because in law, there is such a high standard of responsibility on airlines, it can be argued Ukrainian Airlines not withstanding the airport may have been reopened still should have waited a day or two or knew our ought to have known the risks were higher to fly. Its a very high standard of care that leaves no defence.

Even if a Judge might say Iran is 99.99% responsible as long as they find Ukrainian airlines even.01% responsible the class action law suit of relatives of the dead for wrongful death  goes after both Iran and the airline. Because of the concept of " joint and several liability " of the claimants can' collect from Iran (which is likely) they can go after Ukrainian airlines for all of the amount of damages from the law suit, and then its up to  Ukrainian Airlines to have to  go after Iran to recover any damages blamed on Iran.

From a layman's perspective it would explain why the pilot and station manager for Ukrainian airlines cleared the flight to go, but from a legal perspective does not relieve the airline from liability exposure. In such cases do not be surprised to see a class action law suit. Its usually first come first served and in this case the first lawyer to file usually runs with the class action law suit. Who is first out of the gate is like vultures rushing to a dead carcass to eat unfortunately.

I would think a Canadian law firm is the first out of the gate as most of the passengers were Canadian citizens. The law suit has to be in the jurisdiction of the accident or the jurisdiction of the person being sued.

I think there are complicated rules with airline crashes that may permit jurisdiction elsewhere on consent but its probable the law suit has to be filed against Ukrainian airlines in Kiev as Iran would have no court allowing a law suit against them.

The Ukrainian government has a vested interest in protecting its only viable airline operation from bankruptcy so from a legal perspective its very very complex as Canada is an ally of Ukraine and on a different level does not want to shut down its airline unintentionally.

In terms of going to an international court to condemn Iran it means nothing. Its just words. There would be no binding judgement awarding damages and allowing an enforcement mechanism to collect the damages.

So that is it from a legal perspective.

From a moral perspective, many will argue  Iran is culpable because of its immediate connection to the mistake. Morality is a fluid issue. Saying their act is immoral is to believe it was DELIBERATE not accidental because if it was accidental it would not be immoral as there would be no intent to harm the precondition to make it immoral.

As for blaming Trump or the US there is no immediate connection to what happened so again to hold them morally responsible would create a leap of assumption that they knew our ought to have known Iran would clear its civilian airspace and then accidentally shoot down a passenger aircraft. The US did not order any passenger jet into the sky and had no control over what Iran did. To say they indirectly caused the result is a faulty moral standard because if that is the case then the same people blaming the US must hold Iran morally responsible for thousands of commands and actions they have undertaken and engaged in during the last 40 years against innocent civilians world-wide which precipitated US counter-actions.

Finger pointing is meaningless. It does not bring back the dead.

[CITIZEN_2015]

In a symbolic gesture Iranian protesters purposely refuse to walk over the US and Israeli flags.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/274449

The flags painted down by the regime to be walked over but instead the nation is now walking over the pictures of the ayatollahs which has brought nothing but death, destruction, misery and discrimination and division for this defenseless nation. In the second video the crowd brought down picture of general Soleimani while the crowd was cheering.

I have heard crowds shouting admiration for the US before. I wonder how long before we hear admiration slogans for Israel from Iranian crowd who are now aware the Arab invasion has brought them the ayatollahs they now despise.

 

Edited January 12, 2020 by CITIZEN_2015

[CITIZEN_2015]

Plane Crash Victims' Families Say No Official In Iran Has Contacted Them

The sister of one victim told Radio Farda, “We will never forgive this crime” and added, “The Islamic Republic has proven in the past 40 years that except killing and bringing misfortune to the Iranian people has done nothing. This event will also go down in history as the rest of their crimes”.

https://en.radiofarda.com/a/plane-crash-victims-families-say-no-official-in-iran-has-contacted-them/30371705.html

[DogOnPorch]

1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

In a symbolic gesture Iranian protesters purposely refuse to walk over the US and Israeli flags.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/274449

The flags painted down by the regime to be walked over but instead the nation is now walking over the pictures of the ayatollahs which has brought nothing but death, destruction, misery and discrimination and division for this defenseless nation. In the second video the crowd brought down picture of general Soleimani while the crowd was cheering.

I have heard crowds shouting admiration for the US before. I wonder how long before we hear admiration slogans for Israel from Iranian crowd who are now aware the Arab invasion has brought them the ayatollahs they now despise.

 

 

Iran and America used to be very close and Iran was allied with Israel on certain levels.

It can be that way again.

[CITIZEN_2015]

12 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Iran and America used to be very close and Iran was allied with Israel on certain levels.

It can be that way again.

Yes hopefully soon. When the ayatollahs kicked to hell where they come from.

[DogOnPorch]

6 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Yes hopefully soon. When the ayatollahs kicked to hell where they come from.

 

France if I recall...lol.

They'll be right at home.

[kactus]

Would have been nice if the plane that carried Khomeini from Paris to Tehran was intercepted by a missile...(same predicament as recent Ukrainian flight)

Of course that didn’t happen since there were french crewmen on that flight making damn sure the plane carrying Khomeini touches the soil in Tehran airport.....That was 42 years ago to be exact and the rest is history.....

[DogOnPorch]

33 minutes ago, kactus said:

Would have been nice if the plane that carried Khomeini from Paris to Tehran was intercepted by a missile...(same predicament as recent Ukrainian flight)

Of course that didn’t happen since there were french crewmen on that flight making damn sure the plane carrying Khomeini touches the soil in Tehran airport.....That was 42 years ago to be exact and the rest is history.....

 

He was definitely the Bolsheviks in the Revolution.

[eyeball]

5 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Iran and America used to be very close and Iran was allied with Israel on certain levels.

It can be that way again.

Maybe after a couple thousand year long interregnum and another 2000 years of social evolution after that.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, kactus said:

Would have been nice if the plane that carried Khomeini from Paris to Tehran was intercepted by a missile...(same predicament as recent Ukrainian flight)

Of course that didn’t happen since there were french crewmen on that flight making damn sure the plane carrying Khomeini touches the soil in Tehran airport.....That was 42 years ago to be exact and the rest is history.....

Imagine if the plane carrying the Shah back to Tehran in 1953 had been shot down.

We probably never would have heard about it.

[kactus]

7 hours ago, eyeball said:

Imagine if the plane carrying the Shah back to Tehran in 1953 had been shot down.

We probably never would have heard about it.

7 hours ago, eyeball said:

 

The Shah was already the monarchy and the King in Iran. He fled the country with Empress Farah in 1953 for dust to settle down. As much as I disagree with an assassination of a political figure, the emergence of Khomeini coming back from the shadows after living many years in exile is no coincidence. It was orchestrated by the West seeing through that his plane arrives safe at Iran and we witness the rules of Ayatollahs that took the upper hand on Tudeh party supporters who were essentially communists...

But going back to your point regarding the scenario if the plane carrying Shah in 1953 was shot down one can argue if the coup did not take against Dr Mossadegh by the Brits and US there was no need for Shah to leave the country temporarily. I think the absence of democracy flourishing in Iran in 1953 created a vaccum in the Iran’s socio-politics, which inevitably led played to 1979 revolution. Things may have been may have been much different in 1978 and the revolution.

Shah in his interviews always warned two forces existent in Iran. Reds representing communism and Blacks representing Islamists....

Edited January 13, 2020 by kactus

[DogOnPorch]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

Maybe after a couple thousand year long interregnum and another 2000 years of social evolution after that.

 

Meh...no matter your proclivity towards the Mullahs and covered women, times were good under The Shah. 

Miniskirts...Rolling Stones...Hope...

The works.