DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 minute ago, kactus said: According to the story I heard the man who was operating the anti missile asked the command centre for confirmation on the target and nothing was heard. So he decided to take action.... Iranian command control does not allow such independent action normally, so take that with a big grain of salt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said: Iranian command control does not allow such independent action normally, so take that with a big grain of salt. There you go.... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/zelensky-calls-for-admission-of-guilt-justice-after-iran-admits-to-mistakenly-shooting-down-ukrainian-plane/2020/01/11/2c85cb08-33d8-11ea-971b-43bec3ff9860_story.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 11 minutes ago, kactus said: There you go.... They were lying so much before the admission that nothing they say can be trusted w/o a full independent investigation...and even then...they've already cleaned-up all the evidence. What will there be now to find? And what of the SAM operators? Are they currently having their tongues removed in Evin Prison? Or are they still at their posts and taking interviews? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) A few short vids to show exactly how the SA-15 Tor works. It's the likely candidate by accounts...though several other SAM systems use the same method of taking down an aircraft...the SA-11 Buk being another prime candidate. But for now...let's say it's the SA-15. As one can clearly see...very complex machines. One would need a LOT of training to become proficient at operating such a machine...safely. Edited January 13, 2020 by DogOnPorch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: They were lying so much before the admission that nothing they say can be trusted w/o a full independent investigation...and even then...they've already cleaned-up all the evidence. What will there be now to find? And what of the SAM operators? Are they currently having their tongues removed in Evin Prison? Or are they still at their posts and taking interviews? Good question....Whether to put the blame on the operator is to exonerate the higher level of command remains moot.... Despite the clean up the regime could not fool the experts who visited the site of the crash and the black box which is why they had to admit the truth about shooting down the commercial airplane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 minute ago, kactus said: Good question....Whether to put the blame on the operator is to exonerate the higher level of command remains moot.... Despite the clean up the regime could not fool the experts who visited the site of the crash and the black box which is why they had to admit the truth about shooting down the commercial airplane In the few photos that leaked, shrapnel holes were clearly visible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) And I must add a caveat here... Russian safety standards are not our safety standards. For example, with the much touted S-300 S-400 SAMs that Russia is selling, one must put-up with a minimum 1% missile failure rate...more like 5% in battlefield or Third World conditions. Watch a couple fail...needless to say, the crew is at extreme risk from the rocket falling atop the OTHER rockets...BIG rockets...Big warheads. Edited January 13, 2020 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: In the few photos that leaked, shrapnel holes were clearly visible. Without a doubt...This has been evident from day one and dialled to... The discussion circumvented whether the plane catching a fire internally due to a mechanical fault as the Iranian regime initially claimed.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, kactus said: Without a doubt...This has been evident from day one and dialled to... The discussion circumvented whether the plane catching a fire internally due to a mechanical fault as the Iranian regime initially claimed.... I don't know if you caught it if you perused those videos, but one has to turn a safety key before the missile(s) will fire. Hmmmmm...looking more intentional by the minute, frankly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 29 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: I don't know if you caught it if you perused those videos, but one has to turn a safety key before the missile(s) will fire. Hmmmmm...looking more intentional by the minute, frankly. Spot on...such systems require radar signature protocols, arming & safing, permission to fire, and launch command. This is even more necessary for a linked battery of SAM sites / mobile platforms...otherwise you get missile fratricide. I think you are right on this....and given other flight departures just minutes before....intentional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Marocc said: Means you post a lot of trash that is mostly Untrue, highly biased and extremely hypocritical. I saw no one shot. You are no better than those thugs who are shooting unarmed defenseless men women and children. You saw no one shot? You were there? In all places at the same time?. Oh yes may be you are actually one of those dirty thug bastards who are shooting their own brothers and sisters for a few dollars. Updated links: Iranian security forces purportedly fire live ammunition to disperse protesters despite Trump's warning https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-tweets-again-in-farsi-says-iran-has-been-choked-off-by-sanctions-protests Iranian police fired live rounds to disperse protesters, say witnesses https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/13/iran-protests-witnesses-live-ammunition-fired-disperse-crowds-tehran Edited January 13, 2020 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Spot on...such systems require radar signature protocols, arming & safing, permission to fire, and launch command. This is even more necessary for a linked battery of SAM sites / mobile platforms...otherwise you get missile fratricide. I think you are right on this....and given other flight departures just minutes before....intentional. Yes sir...this isn't an old SA-2 and somebody leaned on the "Fire" button. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 37 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: I don't know if you caught it if you perused those videos, but one has to turn a safety key before the missile(s) will fire. Hmmmmm...looking more intentional by the minute, frankly. The accident happened shortly after the take off within a short distance from the airport. One would assume that the airport still has this plane under the radar system and it makes it very peculiar how this can go wrong. According to the article from Washington Post the operator had 10 seconds to decide what to do in the absence of confirmation from the control centre.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just now, kactus said: The accident happened shortly after the take off within a short distance from the airport. One would assume that the airport still has this plane under the radar system and it makes it very peculiar how this can go wrong. According to the article from Washington Post the operator had 10 seconds to decide what to do in the absence of confirmation from the control centre.... The SAM has its own powerful radar with friend or foe transponder recognition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 4 hours ago, kactus said: According to the story I heard the man who was operating the anti missile asked the command centre for confirmation on the target and nothing was heard. So he decided to take action.... What I have heard is that the army chief asked for the Iranian airspace to be closed soon after the missile attacks but turned down by islamic republic top leadership to whom the anger of the nation is now focused. He wanted to use all commercial passenger planes as human shields against possible American retaliation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just now, CITIZEN_2015 said: What I have heard is that the army chief asked for the Iranian airspace to be closed soon after the missile attacks but turned down by islamic republic top leadership to whom the anger of the nation is now focused. He wanted to use all commercial passenger planes as human shields against possible American retaliation. If that is true the military defence has been seriously compromised...The plane was heading back to the airport after the interception by the missile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: The SAM has its own powerful radar with friend or foe transponder recognition. Sad thing is the expert on this matter is specialised on commercial flights and aviation. This requires a much deeper understanding of what has gone wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, kactus said: If that is true the military defence has been seriously compromised...The plane was heading back to the airport after the interception by the missile. I am not sure I understand this. How the military defense being compromised is related to the leadership wanting to use commercial airplanes as human shields? The plane was hit by at least one missile. I don't think it had time to head back to the airport after. The plane was taking off (going up) towards west NOT coming down to hit any target on the ground from west towards East not to mention the plane is a lot larger. How on earth it was allegedly mistaken for an incoming cruise missile???? Edited January 13, 2020 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, kactus said: Sad thing is the expert on this matter is specialised on commercial flights and aviation. This requires a much deeper understanding of what has gone wrong. It's a multi-stage process to prevent such an occurrence in the first place....specifically. Much like turning the keys in a nuclear missile launch. One has to make that conscious act of turning the key. This after the system has informed you that's it's a Boeing 737...not an F-18 Super Hornet (et al). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: I am not sure I understand this. How the military defense being compromised is related to the leadership wanting to use commercial airplanes as human shields? The plane was hit by at least one missile. I don't think it had time to head back to the airport after. The whole turn thing is pretty dubious. This missile goes for the cockpit...crew go bye bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: The SAM has its own powerful radar with friend or foe transponder recognition. Right....tracking and fire control radars have much higher frequencies and pulse repetition rates for better target resolution. This SAM also has optical guidance. When the U.S. Navy first got close-in missile defense systems like Vulcan Phalanx CIWS, we would rarely leave it in automated mode because it would shoot at nearly anything detected, including seagulls. Commanders have to follow careful protocols now, especially after what happened to USS Stark in 1986, which contributed to USS Vincennes downing an Iranian airliner two years later in 1988. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) Families of crash victims becoming victims again by the murderer. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/iran-victims-repatriation-canada-ps752-1.5424920 Canada is investing reports of harassment by iran regime thugs against families of the victims!!!! Foreign Affairs Minister François-Philippe Champagne says Canada is looking into "disturbing" allegations that Iran is harassing family members of PS752 airline crash victims who are desperately trying to bring home their loved ones' remains. Responding to a video posted on Twitter of a woman pleading for Canada's help in bringing home the body of her son, Champagne tweeted back that the government is looking into the matter. The video was posted by an Iranian journalist/activist who said Iranian authorities are telling families of crash victims not to speak to journalists. Edited January 13, 2020 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Right....tracking and fire control radars have much higher frequencies and pulse repetition rates for better target resolution. This SAM also has optical guidance. When the U.S. Navy first got close-in missile defense systems like Vulcan Phalanx CIWS, we would rarely leave it in automated mode because it would shoot at nearly anything detected, including seagulls. Commanders have to follow careful protocols now, especially after what happened to USS Stark in 1986, which contributed to USS Vincennes downing an Iranian airliner two years later in 1988. Apparently the ZSU-23s had a nasty habit of suddenly locking-onto and shooting up birds, as well. Wakes up the driver, I bet...lol. Edited January 13, 2020 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said: Apparently the ZSU-23s had a nasty habit of suddenly locking-onto and shooting up birds, as well. Wakes up the driver, I bet...lol. Yep.....even birds have sufficient Doppler to meet the fire control software gates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: Yep.....even birds have sufficient Doppler to meet the fire control software gates. Old rig, the Shilka...but still in use today, apparently. Hopefully with a few upgrades. SAM technology has advanced so much since the 1950s...it's pretty scary being a Wild Weasel these days. Thank goodness for drones. Systems like the S-400 are just a BIG SA-14 Tor...but the launcher only has four shots...and a testy failure rate as I've mentioned...so countering them might be easier than the Russians believe...a few decoys...a failure here and there...and you're in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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