More Critism about Canada from the US and the world...

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, Hudson Jones said:

Some would correctly argue that Israel is the terrorist State based on their actions.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing Hudson.

I get that you might be well-versed in the info that you get from your biased sites. Broaden your perspective.

Try answering the question: what will happen if the Israelis get their way vs what will happen if the Iranians/Palestinians/Hezbollah/Hamas/quds force get their way? 

Here's the answer, you can google it all if you like. Please do... 

If Israel gets their way there will be Palestine and there will be Israel. If the other group gets their way there will be a pile of dead Jews and some jewish women and children being raped until they convert to islam in a single country known as Palestine and that's it. If you don't believe me look at what happened in islamic state two years ago and what happened in Pakistan in the '70's (operation searchlight). 

 

[Argus]

19 hours ago, Hudson Jones said:

Some would correctly argue that Israel is the terrorist State based on their actions.

The people who hate Jews would, certainly.

[dialamah]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

The people who hate Jews would, certainly.

Thats not a good argument, unless you'd agree that only people who hate Canadians would criticize the Canadian government.  Criticizing the actions of a country isn't also a declaration of hatred towards every person who is from that country, to say so is just dumb.

[Argus]

26 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Thats not a good argument, unless you'd agree that only people who hate Canadians would criticize the Canadian government.  Criticizing the actions of a country isn't also a declaration of hatred towards every person who is from that country, to say so is just dumb.

Israel is the only Jewish state. You consider it simply a coincidence that so many people focus their vitriol on them as opposed to say China, which harvests organs from political and religious prisoners and puts a million Muslims into concentration camps? As opposed to China, which murders tens of thousands in concentration camps every year? As opposed to Syria, bombing and gassing its own people or Iran, which hangs little girls from cranes if they complain their uncles raped them or Egypt which executes political prisoners, or Saudi Arabia which finances the export of the most homophobic, misogynistic and hateful religious beliefs in the world?

Don't bullshit me. Ninety percent of the people who fixate on how awful Israel supposedly is couldn't give a damn about human rights abuses anywhere else in the world. They fixate on Israel because they hate Jews.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Don't bullshit me. Ninety percent of the people who fixate on how awful Israel supposedly is couldn't give a damn about human rights abuses anywhere else in the world. They fixate on Israel because they hate Jews.

Bullshit.  What most right thinking people hate in Israel China or Syria is the same, their governments not their people...institutions...things in other words, not human beings.  They may have no particular use for officials or groups in these countries that support or worse execute the awful things their governments and institutions order done but be sure it is at base the institution they despise the most.

Most of all though I can't stand it when the difference between a government and the people it governs are ignored by conflation, sloppy thinking, disenguity and indifference.  Anyone who does this really only gives a damn about their own agenda. 

[Argus]

16 hours ago, eyeball said:

Bullshit.  What most right thinking people hate in Israel China or Syria is the same, their governments not their people...institutions...things in other words, not human beings. 

Riiiiight. Which is why there's a boycott and divest movement towards China and Syria and Saudi Arabia and Iran and ... whoops, no there isn't.

Which is why every second post in the international section is about them... whoops, it's not.  Which is why every university in the West regularly holds demonstrations in solidarity with their victims. Whoops, that doesn't happen either.  Despite them being almost infinitely worse and more murderous and evil than Israel.

Because it's not about human rights. It's about Jews.

 

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Riiiiight. Which is why there's a boycott and divest movement towards China and Syria and Saudi Arabia and Iran and ... whoops, no there isn't.

There certainly should be but I seriously doubt you'll be spearheading it.

 

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Which is why every second post in the international section is about them... whoops, it's not.  Which is why every university in the West regularly holds demonstrations in solidarity with their victims. Whoops, that doesn't happen either.  Despite them being almost infinitely worse and more murderous and evil than Israel.

Because it's not about human rights. It's about Jews.

No, it's about a country, one that is abusing human rights.  The fact it owes its existence to another country that styles itself as the Shiniest Beacon in the known universe for human rights is probably at the root of most people's ill will towards it.  People just naturally gravitate towards underdogs which in Israel's case is not the Jews.

Perhaps people realize at some level that trying to bring dictatorships to heel will never be taken seriously when democracies can't be.   You can be sure China and Syria will be pointing and saying '"Yeah well, whaddabout that"?

Edited January 17, 2020 by eyeball

[SpankyMcFarland]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

Riiiiight. Which is why there's a boycott and divest movement towards China and Syria and Saudi Arabia and Iran and ... whoops, no there isn't.

Which is why every second post in the international section is about them... whoops, it's not.  Which is why every university in the West regularly holds demonstrations in solidarity with their victims. Whoops, that doesn't happen either.  Despite them being almost infinitely worse and more murderous and evil than Israel.

Because it's not about human rights. It's about Jews.

 

Wait a second. China is not part of the Western club. How many of us support the PRC here? Ditto Assad, KSA, Iran. There’s no argument about these regimes. They’re awful. Contrast that with the fulsome declarations of support that Israel regularly receives from the majority of US politicians - chalk and cheese. 

And claiming it’s all just bigotry is a curious argument to use, one borrowed from the PC left. ‘You disagree with me because you’re racist’ has been a way of trying to shut people up for quite some time. Actually, I believe that everyone is tribal to some extent, so as long as we accept that we are all like this then I’m not too bothered by such accusations. Let he who has not sinned...

BTW Canada did not receive criticism from ‘the world’ over this but from a tiny fraction of it. The vast majority of the world sided with Canada here. Haley isn’t so quick to comment on a subject she actually does know something about, Modi’s India. Her praise for the religious fanatics currently running that country says it all. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by SpankyMcFarland

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Wait a second. China is not part of the Western club. How many of us support the PRC here? Ditto Assad, KSA, Iran. There’s no argument about these regimes. They’re awful. Contrast that with the fulsome declarations of support that Israel regularly receives from the majority of US politicians - chalk and cheese. 

You cannot judge the behaviour of Israel on that of western countries. All other western countries have been almost entirely unthreatened at home for decades. There is no existential threat to any of them, nor has there been in the lifetime of most of their citizens. And that leads to a lazy, relaxed mindset. Israel has been surrounded by hostile enemies for all the lifetime of its citizens, attacked multiple times, and with a teeming mass of religious fanatics at its borders ready to die if they can just crawl under the fence, over it, around it, or through it just to kill a Jew or two. Any time they get through they attack everyone they find, man woman or child. When they can't get in they fire rockets and float balloons with firebombs over the borders. Their hate is palpable. No one growing up in Israel could possibly be unaffected by it, and the state itself cannot afford the lazy-assed thinking of other western countries.

Yet still they have a democracy, a free press and an independent court system - unlike any of their neighbours. They also have no death penalty, and while they've been guilty, at times, of harsh interrogations, we don't see people dying under torture such as we see from ALL of their neighbours.

5 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

And claiming it’s all just bigotry is a curious argument to use, one borrowed from the PC left. ‘You disagree with me because you’re racist’ has been a way of trying to shut people up for quite some time. 

As the saying goes not everyone who hate Israel is an antisemite but all antisemites hate Israel. I'm perfectly willing to accept a logical alternative as to why so many people who have never been there and have no relatives anywhere near there are so vociferously angry at Israel as compared to its murderous neighbours.

 

[Argus]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

There certainly should be but I seriously doubt you'll be spearheading it.

 

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

No, it's about a country, one that is abusing human rights. 

At least 100 other countries are abusing human rights. Many of them far, far worse than Israel. If Israel was putting Muslims in concentration camps your head would explode. China does it and meh, no big deal.

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

The fact it owes its existence to another country that styles itself as the Shiniest Beacon in the known universe for human rights is probably at the root of most people's ill will towards it. 

The US and the West supported Israel for decades for the plain and simple reason it was and remains the only reliable Allie in that whole area, the only true democracy, the only country with a free press and free courts, the only country which doesn't have a substantial population that hates westerners.

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

People just naturally gravitate towards underdogs which in Israel's case is not the Jews.

Israel has been the underdog its entire existence. A small country with some eight million people surrounded by hundreds of millions of hostile Muslims.

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Perhaps people realize at some level that trying to bring dictatorships to heel will never be taken seriously when democracies can't be.   You can be sure China and Syria will be pointing and saying '"Yeah well, whaddabout that"?

I can be sure they wouldn't dare since their human rights violations are a hundred times worse than Israel.

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

You cannot judge the behaviour of Israel on that of western countries. Their hate is palpable. No one growing up in Israel could possibly be unaffected by it, and the state itself cannot afford the lazy-assed thinking of other western countries.

 

I recognize Israel lives in a dangerous neighbourhood and has the right to defend itself. That does not mean I have to agree with everything Israel does. 

Again, there is no argument on the PRC, Syria etc etc. That’s why a debate is hard to sustain on those issues here. 

[Argus]

Just now, SpankyMcFarland said:

I recognize Israel lives in a dangerous neighbourhood and has the right to defend itself. That does not mean I have to agree with everything Israel does.

I don't agree with everything they do either. But I do take its 'dangerous neighbourhood' into account when judging them. All I have to do is consider what a typical western country, including Canada, would be like if under a similar threat for decades.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I don't agree with everything they do either. But I do take its 'dangerous neighbourhood' into account when judging them.

I take Israel's patron's behaviour in the region into account.

Quote

All I have to do is consider what a typical western country, including Canada, would be like if under a similar threat for decades.

I consider the reaction of people under the thumb of the dictators Israel's patron supports and then I imagine how I would feel.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

The US and the West supported Israel for decades for the plain and simple reason it was and remains the only reliable Allie in that whole area

Too bad the means by which they supported Israel included propping up dictators they were also allied with in the region.

As for America's reasons...Israel is just not paying attention to how fickle and insane those can be.  

Quote

 

In the Trump era, evangelicals take center stage on Israel policy

Hagee, one of the most influential and controversial evangelical Christian leaders in the United States and the head of Christians United for Israel, said in February that Israel was just days or weeks away from major armed conflict with its Muslim neighbors and that it would win the first in "a series of wars that end in the coming of Messiah."...

... 

It wasn't long ago — 2008 — that GOP presidential nominee John McCain was forced to reject Hagee's endorsement because Hagee had delivered a sermon suggesting the Holocaust was part of God's plan for Jews to return to Israel as a catalyst for the Biblical end times.

Times change and white evangelical Christians are proving a more reliable partner both for Republican President Donald Trump and for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu than American Jews, who largely vote Democratic and who are deeply fractured over Israel's policies.

That is, Trump may be for Israel, but evidence suggests his support has little to do with Jews and everything to do with pleasing the white evangelical Christians who form the strongest core of his base heading into the 2020 election.

 

 

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

 

I just don't believe you because of the way you've defended how our multi-nationals do business with countries like China.

Here's an idea, how about a pigouvian tax on goods that people buy from dictatorships? Like the carbon tax we can give rebates to people who buy goods from decent democracies while investing in measures to change dictator's attitudes.

Edited January 17, 2020 by eyeball