Should we bring back the death penalty?

[jacee]

5 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

I'm not off topic... This is the product of a culture that believes in dicipline.

 

That's gross overgeneralization with no scientific evidence. Your opinionating does not make it truth. 

I challenged you to provide evidence that corporal punishment is an effective strategy against juvenile crime.

So far, you haven't.

Edited November 24, 2019 by jacee

[OftenWrong]

59 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Off topic though.

Not by what I meant. It is fully on topic.

[Army Guy]

On 11/22/2019 at 11:56 AM, OftenWrong said:

I say no. Not because of the question of punishment or vengeance, although our vengeance shouldn't be so hot. The state is a reflection of our values, and if we give the state the power to kill, it means we accept killing. That's a step towards barbarism, imo.

And we as a nation do except killing, what would you call all the conflicts we have been in, we as a nation are familiar with killing....Are we not also empowering them by giving out light sentences....our system is full of examples with murders getting off light for manslaughter... drunk drivers killing kids and grandmother ring a bell ,  How many times have we heard of a police officer emptying his pistol on someone...remember that kid in Ottawa on the tram, how many rounds did he take, that is killing someone, no intention of letting him live...

I think for those criminals that have been 100 % without a doubt could be sentenced to death...in todays world with cameras and other surveillance options, DNA and other medical advances, that is not an impossibility...

 

[Cannucklehead]

7 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

And we as a nation do except killing, what would you call all the conflicts we have been in, we as a nation are familiar with killing....Are we not also empowering them by giving out light sentences....our system is full of examples with murders getting off light for manslaughter... drunk drivers killing kids and grandmother ring a bell ,  How many times have we heard of a police officer emptying his pistol on someone...remember that kid in Ottawa on the tram, how many rounds did he take, that is killing someone, no intention of letting him live...

I think for those criminals that have been 100 % without a doubt could be sentenced to death...in todays world with cameras and other surveillance options, DNA and other medical advances, that is not an impossibility...

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/vancouversun.com/news/crime/surrey-rcmp-search-for-guildford-groper/amp

It's also full of examples of how cameras dont help much and how racism plays a factor.  

Not that I would defend this individual, but is this really a case for the rcmp?  

[Cannucklehead]

7 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

And we as a nation do except killing, what would you call all the conflicts we have been in, we as a nation are familiar with killing....Are we not also empowering them by giving out light sentences....our system is full of examples with murders getting off light for manslaughter... drunk drivers killing kids and grandmother ring a bell ,  How many times have we heard of a police officer emptying his pistol on someone...remember that kid in Ottawa on the tram, how many rounds did he take, that is killing someone, no intention of letting him live...

I think for those criminals that have been 100 % without a doubt could be sentenced to death...in todays world with cameras and other surveillance options, DNA and other medical advances, that is not an impossibility...

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/vancouversun.com/news/crime/surrey-rcmp-search-for-guildford-groper/amp

It's also full of examples of how cameras dont help much and how racism plays a factor.  

Not that I would defend this individual, but is this really a case for the rcmp?  

[Army Guy]

6 hours ago, jacee said:

That's gross overgeneralization with no scientific evidence. Your opinionating does not make it truth. 

I challenged you to provide evidence that corporal punishment is an effective strategy against juvenile crime.

So far, you haven't.

Are you saying that incarceration provides better results. which sees between 10 to 15 percent return, corporate punish has a 0 % return  to prison rate.

The question should be why does the tax payer have to pay so that these convicts learn the hard way about our nations laws... Why does the prisoner take on no responsibility for this entire problem...You talk about how corporal punishment has no deterrent value, how do you measure that ? and your going to find different measures of success across the globe. How effective was French Gianna being sent there for life was almost the same as corporal punishment....why is it we can terminate a fetus in the womb, but can't find the guts to kill someone for murder or rape... 

And as far as Juvenile's go , we have given Juveniles adult sentences before , is it the age that is the problem...I mean your willing to send him to prison for 25 years , a good portion of his life, and then we expect him to become a model citizen....who hires criminals anyways, will a bank extend loans to a guy with no credit rating at all, so you get out then what,  17 when you got locked up, get out at 42, be like landing on another planet, with no money , no job thats going to pay more than min wage, no money no rent, ... but ya as long as we did not sentence him to death, for murder or rape.......

[Army Guy]

26 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/vancouversun.com/news/crime/surrey-rcmp-search-for-guildford-groper/amp

It's also full of examples of how cameras dont help much and how racism plays a factor.  

Not that I would defend this individual, but is this really a case for the rcmp?  

Not sure how it would be racism, they must have been given a description by the victim , the police then pulled up camera footage from the time and date....how is that racism because he wears a turban ?

I'm not a lawyer but I think it might be sexual assault , which would fall under the RCMP.  

[OftenWrong]

38 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I think for those criminals that have been 100 % without a doubt could be sentenced to death...in todays world with cameras and other surveillance options, DNA and other medical advances, that is not an impossibility...

I respect your difference of opinion. You didn't explain why though. What's the reason those who are 100% should be executed.

[Army Guy]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

I respect your difference of opinion. You didn't explain why though. What's the reason those who are 100% should be executed.

Fair enough , if you take a life then you should be held accountable be it by 1 st, 2 and , degree murder, or by man slaughter, . violent rape , and child molestation . 

What ever happened to your responsible for your own actions, yes they get sentenced by our justice system, but that is where it all ends, the rest is on the tax payer to ensure that they are humanely looked after, which include TV, Intra net, housing, meals, education , counseling, even a job if you like, plus they get to vote.....while the victims family is left with dealing with  the grief of a dead relative whos life was cut short due to someone's chioce of action that day.... saddled with the whole burial thing including the costs,  along with everything in the greif process , such as going back to work if you can, other social problems the whole issue cause with family and friends. The convict has only worry is getting along while on the inside....The rest is all paid in full by the tax payer...something else the family thinks about their taxes paying to keep this scumbag alive...Our justice system has always had the convicts rights held higher than the victims... our justice system has handed out very light sentences to people that have taken a life, the lowest that I could find on goggle was a man served 3 out of the 5 years he was sentenced for beating a young man to death in a crowded mall...there are a lot more examples out there...

Does corporal punishment lower the crime rate, I don't care, life is nothing more than choices, that man did not have to continue to beat that young man until he died it was his chioce...he should have to pay for that chioce in some way, 3 years is not paying for anything in my opinion...nor is it justice for the family of that young man...in 3 years to see this guy walking around while their son is in a hole... Not every case should deserve the death penalty, those that are found insane or mentally ill should be given life with no parole....accidents would be another exception....unless it was something like drinking and driving, then a life sentence should be handed down...Life sentence means  "FOREVER" to me thats a life sentence. But if you murder with intent to kill , violently rape, or molest a child it should be game over death sentence if 100 % no doubts and there is plenty of evidence to support that..

 

 

[Guest ProudConservative]

12 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Life sentence means  "FOREVER" to me thats a life sentence. But if you murder with intent to kill , violently rape, or molest a child it should be game over death sentence if 100 % no doubts and there is plenty of evidence to support that.

I disagree with enforcing a mandatory death penalty. I think most people who kill someone should get a probationary death penalty.

They receive a massive debt sentence, and they have to replay society for their crimes. It doesn't have to be a mandatory death sentence... They go to prison, and they have to become a completely moral person in prison. Maybe we could force imates who killed someone to go to visit the high schools, and lecture about their terrible mistakes. If they work their ass off to make sure less people repeat the same mistake, they make... I have no problem with them serving a life sentence, and being aloud to read books, watch TV or play sports in prison.

I believe the opportunity for redemption should be given to everyone, but we can make it extremely difficult for those who commit the worse crimes.

I like the death penalty to save money, but I think it's the easy way out. You punish the person more, by giving them a life sentence. Why not make them do exactly as their told, and have them live under the fear of being executed at any given moment?

Then you can force them to work in the prison, and recover some of the opporational costs.

Edited November 25, 2019 by ProudConservative

[Guest ProudConservative]

See this is why we can't get good Trade deals with China... Justin Trudeau doesn't know when to mind his own business.

 

 

[OftenWrong]

Perhaps if Canada implemented the death penalty, would improve trade relations with China.

[Nefarious Banana]

Robert Latimer ?

[cannuck]

While I would quite happily see murders and drug dealers getting the death penalty, our track record of convicting innocent "murderers" is not all that good.   Also, I have been party to a number of investigations (including one murder) where once the authorities formulate their theory, 100% of the effort of investigation is to get what they can to secure a conviction and conveniently ignore or discount ANYTHING to the contrary.  Sadly, we can never be 100% sure of anything.  Now, if a convicted criminal of any kind were to find jail so miserable that they wanted to off themselves, give them what the want.

BUT: Jail must become punishment for that to happen.   As it is, it is merely a place for criminals to associate in comfort, learn their craft and build networks for use in the more active phase of their criminal life.  There are essentially three kinds of people in jail: those who want to be there, those who are there as part of their risks in their lifestyle/business and those who didn't realize what they were doing would result in criminal prosecution (many due to substance abuse).  The first and third group deserve some kind of effort at reform/rehab, but the second bunch have made up their mind, made their choices and do NOT deserve the country club treatment.  IMHO, they need to be under solitary confinement and allowed to meet with their jailer, medical professional or lawyer ONLY.  Any association with or communication with or through others through written, spoken or electronic media should be denied.  Do that and I can guarantee you that genuine intentional criminals will think twice about continuing with their life choices.

[jacee]

On 11/24/2019 at 6:41 PM, Army Guy said:

I'm not a lawyer but I think it might be sexual assault , which would fall under the RCMP.  

No, that's not why. It's because the RCMP are the only police service in Surrey. RCMP are contracted to provide policing to many communities across Canada - all of those that don't have provincial and or city police. 

[Army Guy]

On 11/26/2019 at 3:02 PM, jacee said:

No, that's not why. It's because the RCMP are the only police service in Surrey. RCMP are contracted to provide policing to many communities across Canada - all of those that don't have provincial and or city police. 

Regardless of who the police are , the question was would sexual assault be an automatic a police matter....

[Army Guy]

On 11/25/2019 at 8:30 AM, ProudConservative said:

I disagree with enforcing a mandatory death penalty. I think most people who kill someone should get a probationary death penalty.

They receive a massive debt sentence, and they have to replay society for their crimes. It doesn't have to be a mandatory death sentence... They go to prison, and they have to become a completely moral person in prison. Maybe we could force imates who killed someone to go to visit the high schools, and lecture about their terrible mistakes. If they work their ass off to make sure less people repeat the same mistake, they make... I have no problem with them serving a life sentence, and being aloud to read books, watch TV or play sports in prison.

I believe the opportunity for redemption should be given to everyone, but we can make it extremely difficult for those who commit the worse crimes.

I like the death penalty to save money, but I think it's the easy way out. You punish the person more, by giving them a life sentence. Why not make them do exactly as their told, and have them live under the fear of being executed at any given moment?

Then you can force them to work in the prison, and recover some of the opporational costs.

I strongly disagree , as I have said the death penalty would be reserved for those that are 100 % beyond a shadow of a doubt  guilty, the rest could serve a full life sentence 25 years per life taken....I don't want them leaving the prison to go on school trips, or anything else, I would prefer them making license plates but apparently that is against human rights "force labour" and something about pay..i don't want them voting or have any rights or privileges while doing time, it should be counseling, work or education.... no tv, intranet nothing.... ...

I not interested in punishment , I want justice for the victim thats what we are missing in our justice system....taking a life and only doing 3 out of 5 year sentence is not justice...it is a slap in the face...

 

 

[cannuck]

AG:  I could agree with you, but for the fact that in Canada (and I assume far worse in most other countries) 100% beyond shadow of a doubt simply is not 100%.  Here is a list of 14 murder and sexual assault cases with wrongful convictions:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overturned_convictions_in_Canada

Now, if the accused ADMITS to murder (knowing full well the consequences), then I have no problem with death penalty.

[jacee]

2 hours ago, cannuck said:

AG:  I could agree with you, but for the fact that in Canada (and I assume far worse in most other countries) 100% beyond shadow of a doubt simply is not 100%.  Here is a list of 14 murder and sexual assault cases with wrongful convictions:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overturned_convictions_in_Canada

Now, if the accused ADMITS to murder (knowing full well the consequences), then I have no problem with death penalty.

Even that is questionable: False confessions due to police browbeating does happen as well. 

[jacee]

16 hours ago, Army Guy said:

 

I not interested in punishment , I want justice for the victim thats what we are missing in our justice system....taking a life and only doing 3 out of 5 year sentence is not justice...it is a slap in the face...

What are the circumstances of that case? 

[Army Guy]

6 hours ago, jacee said:

What are the circumstances of that case? 

DUI, kills 17 year old that was walking on side of road...

[Army Guy]

8 hours ago, cannuck said:

AG:  I could agree with you, but for the fact that in Canada (and I assume far worse in most other countries) 100% beyond shadow of a doubt simply is not 100%.  Here is a list of 14 murder and sexual assault cases with wrongful convictions:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overturned_convictions_in_Canada

Now, if the accused ADMITS to murder (knowing full well the consequences), then I have no problem with death penalty.

I get it there are more wrongful convictions than we would like to see, But there are also lots of cases that are 100 % with out a doubt ,  take a look at cases that have plenty of evidence plus DNA, plus video, open and shut cases, ie Someone walks into a gas station pulls a gun shots clerk all caught on camera, plus witness....open and shut...no appeal, no waiting take them out back hook them up to the prefer methods and it's done...

 

[Moonlight Graham]

On 11/22/2019 at 12:42 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Yes we should bring back death penalty for violent crimes against women and children, murder and repeat rapists. Unfortunately I don't think any party or government has the courage to take this right action.

Government shouldn't be executing its own citizens, unless in dire emergencies acting in self-defense like when there's an active shooter etc....but that's not really execution.

Prison is enough to keep the public safe from bad criminals.  Execution is unnecessary and excessive.  Let the criminal work their butt off for the rest of their life to repay their debt to society...send some money to the victim or their family even.

[cannuck]

I tend to agree with Army Guy...but would need a LOT more definition on what is an "open and shut" case.  Milgaard, etc. all were called that by the courts - until LONG after they would have been dead.

"Prison is enough to keep the public safe from bad criminals"????    Yeah, while they are inside, they are only likely to harm or kill other inmates or staff, but what they ARE doing while inside is learning from and making connections to those who will be part of their ongoing criminal life when they get out.  Prison is not punishment, it is not about reform it is about career development for genuine bad criminals.

[WestCanMan]

I think it's a joke that Clifford Olson has been chilling for 38 years while we spend hundreds of thousands of $ per year to keep him alive.

When I was a kid one of our family friends was a clinical psychiatrist and he was one of the only people in Canada to have direct access to Olson. There were 6 RCMP officers whose only job was to protect Olson 24/7 because they felt like he was at high risk of being killed in prison. It took 6 RCMP because that's how many they needed so that some could be on their days off, some could be on vacay, and there would always be enough people to be on shift with him.

6 RCMP is enough to patrol a small town. What a waste of taxpayer money. 

Not only then, when the penalty is so low it emboldens other pervs to take the chance. IMO this exposes our children to unnecessary risk.

I don't think the death penalty is something that can be handed out in 99% of cases though. There are a lot of people who are innocent, sitting around in jail for lengthy sentences.