Immigrants cost Canada $30 billion per year

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

You did not answer my question. Are you going to create 300,000 jobs per years for doctors, engineers, school and hospital workers, l and workers of other types in those tiny remote areas with small population? Are there enough schools for immigrant teachers or hospitals for immigrant nurses or restaurants for immigrant workers or construction activities for immigrant construction workers? Or you are going to put them on social assistant programs for 3 years when they will become unemployed until they get their citizenship three years later?

You didn't ask me a question.  I think you asked dialamah.

Edited September 1, 2019 by bcsapper

[taxme]

22 hours ago, marcus said:

It's not the number of people which is the main reason we need to upgrade or update. It's time. 

The aging of our population and a declining fertility rate will continue to have a significant impact on our economy. In 1971, there were 6.6 people of working age for each senior. By 2012, the worker-to-retiree ratio had dropped to 4.2 to 1, and projections put the ratio at 2 to 1 by 2036, at which time five million Canadians are set to retire.

Immigration alone cannot solve this demographic challenge, but it can help, as we look to keep our economy growing and maintain our commitments for health care, public pensions and other social programs. In recent years, more than 80 per cent of the immigrants we admit have been under 45 years of age.

You should be proud of our strict immigration system. Most other countries are looking at our immigration system in order to fix theirs. 

Really? Is that what you see in the charts?

These white folks are children of recent immigrants from white countries. 

What I see from these figures is that the children of immigrants who are coming to Canada end up performing better, if they are from non-European countries. Contrary to what many, including Argus, think.

Look at the charts and figures in regards to white vs non-white immigrants in Canada. Facts are facts.

Speaking of facts:

Many European are fine where they are. They're not looking to immigrate to Canada. It's not like Canada is opening up the door to only Indians and the Chinese and shutting the door to the whites. Our immigration system, for the most part, is competitive based. If you're coming to Canada, your age, English level, education and work experience is looked at. Not what country they're from or what colour the person is. That said, there are advantages that Europeans have over others: If you're under 35 (30 in some other countries) and from Europe, you are able to get an open work permit to come to Canada and work, which can open the door to immigrating permanently. This is something those other countries don't have. Your view of our immigration system is lacking knowledge of how it works.

You're not being realistic. Canada has never been known as a place with 'good old Canadian home cooking'. The only representation of 'white food' are chain burger restaurants and Tim Hortons. Fxck that shxt. That's crap food and I welcome alternatives. Alternatives are more than just Chinese restaurants. Plus, YOU have the option of choosing between the many alternatives. I am digging all of the new latin food options. There are several delicious Lebanese restaurants in Vancouver. The options are out there. You just need to look.

It's true that when you surround yourself with people who are exactly like you, there is no advancement. Sikhs in some parts of Surrey are a good example of this. Another good example are whites in the rural area. Living in Vancouver, I see many cultures. I'm used to differentiating between cultures, based on skin tone, accents and mannerism. But guess what! My children don't. It's amazing seeing my children grow up with kids from different cultures. They are building their own culture with kids with different backgrounds. 

Personally, I welcome new cultures and new ideas. It's my choice which I embrace and which ones I don't. Just like it is your choice.

Believe what you want to believe, and so will I. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

That is not evidence of anything other than that Canada was in a deep recession at that time. The recession was world-wide, and had nothing to do with immigration, nor did it's resolution. Comparing an economy in the midst of a deep recession with stagflation to one not in recession is simply disingenuous nonsense.

So lets compare the after recession data. GDP per capita improved from $20,500 in 1995 to over $52000 in 2019 (More than twice almost three times higher).  Or from $24000 in year 2000 to more than double now. Other statistics on employment, confidence ...etc. follow the same pattern.

https://www.google.com/search?q=canada+gdp+per+capita+in+1995&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA807CA807&oq=canada+gdp+per+capita+in+1995&aqs=chrome.0.69i59.13172j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

You are distorting facts and misrepresent them to blame all problems on immigrants whereas immigrants have been the engine for economic growth not the ther way round. Yes there are some problems likely as a result of high rate of immigration (cultural conflicts, criminal activities,...etc.) but not economic issues.

Edited September 1, 2019 by CITIZEN_2015

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

You didn't ask me a question.  I think you asked dialamah.

True. But I ask you now!!

[taxme]

23 hours ago, marcus said:

WHERE?

Again, I live in a pretty diverse place and every year there is a HUGE xmas tree in my children's school.

Where are they taking away xmas trees in schools? I am curious.

From the many alternative media websites that I have visited over the years have said that many Christmas celebrations that use to be celebrated in all Canadian schools over 30 years ago were slowly being phased out. There are indeed some schools in smaller centers where the population is majority Western Christian, and who still do celebrate Christmas the old fashioned way,  but in the big cities like Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal, Christmas celebrations have been cut back big time. The excuse was that it would appear offensive to other cultures and religions. That is what we have been told by some Zionist organizations. Many government buildings do not put up a Christmas Tree all that much anymore. 

If your kids get to see a Christmas Tree in their school, Christmas Trees now being called Holiday Tree in many places, they are the lucky ones. Just how diverse is your children's school anyway? And as more non-Christian religions keep coming to Canada with bring with them their different religious beliefs, in time, Christmas trees and celebrations in Canada will only happen in Christian homes. More non-British/European immigration means less Christmas celebrations in the future in public places. My opinion, of course. 

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

You are targeting immigrants (that is soon to be Canadian citizens ) and imposing a condition to come here and accept to become second class citizens. I think that i says enough. How about adding other conditions like if they open restaurants then they have to serve food to Canadians for free? Or if they work for the government or private sector they should accept to earn half the wage Canadians earn or work twice as much to have continued employment? Or have to pay twice as much in taxes, Or have to pay twice when buying a house or always should give way to Canadians when driving? Really!!!!!!!!

Not at all.  Once they become citizens there is no difference in status.  Canada doesn’t have to let anyone immigrate and reserves the right to reduce of increase the number of immigrants and the criteria for entry.  

You also don’t seem to understand the foreign buyers tax, which is a tax on property bought by people who live outside the country.  It may be nice for a rich foreigner to have a pied at terre in Canada in case the going gets too tough in the home country, but it simply depletes Canadian housing stock and drives up prices for Canadians.  Not okay.  Government is paid for by citizens and is there to provide the services that citizens support.   Nothing is owed to foreigners.  It’s clear that some people really don’t understand that fact.  If the government decides to offer foreign aid or some other assistance, that’s a choice for governments and their citizens to make.  

[taxme]

22 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

You don't understand the fundamentals of growth and prosperity and how it creates jobs and wealth.  Yes it is the need for new infrastructure that simulates growth and creates jobs and yes new immigrants are the engine for that. Not only new infrastructure but even more costly social  and medical  creates jobs. Don't hate out of ignorance but first educate yourself. Population as a whole is a burden on environment so the world population needs to be controlled. In spite of high levels of immigration past decade or two Canadians in general are much more prosperous than two decades ago. Unemployment is much lower compare to 90's and the main sectors of economy being housing and manufacturing is booming whereas we have about 10 million more immigrants in this country.

Even if your figures are correct then imagine that even if half of immigrants since 90's are tax payers now and each paying an average of $12000 direct income tax then each year those immigrant paying twice more in taxes (60 billion dollars annually) than the figure YOU claim the new immigrant would cost each year. And that is just Direct income tax alone they all pay other taxes two like HST and property taxes.

Of course more immigration means more growth, maybe more new jobs, and maybe more prosperity for some. So, what you are trying to say here is that let's just bring in millions of new immigrants every few years into Canada because it will help create a bigger population in Canada. Why do you want Canada to have a bigger population? The more new immigrants the more has to be built and done to accommodate them all. Yup, that sure makes lots of sense to me. NOT. Our social and medical services are going bankrupt from all of the hundreds of thousands of new immigrants/refugees immigrating to Canada. Our hospitals are overwhelmed with legal/illegal refugees that should not be here. Legal and illegal refugees are really starting to take a toll on our generous benefits and services and many Canadians that are waiting for benefits or an operation have been put back because of some medical emergency being given to a refugee who should not be her in the first place. 

I have pretty much educated myself on immigration, and from educating myself with more common sense and logic and not less on immigration I have taught myself that massive immigration into Canada every year is not good for Canada or Canadians. It's an environment disaster. The rate of unemployment in Canada has not changed all that much at all for decades now. What part of the country are you living in anyway? In the north where you will not see the big changes going on in Canada?

As I have said many times before here. I am not against immigration. I am against the massive amount of numbers of new immigrants/refugees coming to Canada. Canada does not need approx. 400,000 new immigrants/refugees every year. Our birth rates show us that. Only a tiny minority made up from special interest pro immigration groups that want more new immigrants to come to Canada. Family reunification being one of them, and these old family reunification members are taking a toll on our benefits and services in Canada. 

If you believe and want more new immigrants to come to Canada, and that more will be great for Canada, then so be it. But I have to disagree with you. Too much immigration may not be all that great for Canada. But, so be it. 

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Can't speak for Canada, but this often repeated statement is not true for the U.S.

Real U.S. wage growth has ebbed and flowed at different times over the past 50 years.

https://www.factcheck.org/2019/06/are-wages-rising-or-flat/

Also, it is a common mistake to project American data on Canadian circumstances.

Did you read the article I included?  It contains US and Canadian data.  Wages have stagnated in both countries.  It’s really a problem for the bottom half of earners.  

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Not at all.  Once they become citizens there is no difference in status.  Canada doesn’t have to let anyone immigrate and reserves the right to reduce of increase the number of immigrants and the criteria for entry.  

Again please ANSWER my question posed to other two posters saying the same thing.

THIS QUESTION:

2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

You did not answer my question. Are you going to create 300,000 jobs per years for doctors, engineers, school and hospital workers, l and workers of other types in those tiny remote areas with small population? Are there enough schools for immigrant teachers or hospitals for immigrant nurses or restaurants for immigrant workers or construction activities for immigrant construction workers? Or you are going to put them on social assistant programs for 3 years when they will become unemployed until they get their citizenship three years later?

Edited September 1, 2019 by CITIZEN_2015

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Did you read the article I included?  It contains US and Canadian data.  Wages have stagnated in both countries.  It’s really a problem for the bottom half of earners.  

 

Did you read the article I included...no stagnation at varying times in the U.S. economy, which is not Canada.

More relevant to this topic, the U.S. has far more immigrants per year and an economy with the size to employ them at higher rates.

 

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, taxme said:

Of course more immigration means more growth, maybe more new jobs, and maybe more prosperity for some. So, what you are trying to say here is that let's just bring in millions of new immigrants every few years into Canada because it will help create a bigger population in Canada. Why do you want Canada to have a bigger population? The more new immigrants the more has to be built and done to accommodate them all. Yup, that sure makes lots of sense to me. NOT. Our social and medical services are going bankrupt from all of the hundreds of thousands of new immigrants/refugees immigrating to Canada. Our hospitals are overwhelmed with legal/illegal refugees that should not be here. Legal and illegal refugees are really starting to take a toll on our generous benefits and services and many Canadians that are waiting for benefits or an operation have been put back because of some medical emergency being given to a refugee who should not be her in the first place. 

I have pretty much educated myself on immigration, and from educating myself with more common sense and logic and not less on immigration I have taught myself that massive immigration into Canada every year is not good for Canada or Canadians. It's an environment disaster. The rate of unemployment in Canada has not changed all that much at all for decades now. What part of the country are you living in anyway? In the north where you will not see the big changes going on in Canada?

As I have said many times before here. I am not against immigration. I am against the massive amount of numbers of new immigrants/refugees coming to Canada. Canada does not need approx. 400,000 new immigrants/refugees every year. Our birth rates show us that. Only a tiny minority made up from special interest pro immigration groups that want more new immigrants to come to Canada. Family reunification being one of them, and these old family reunification members are taking a toll on our benefits and services in Canada. 

If you believe and want more new immigrants to come to Canada, and that more will be great for Canada, then so be it. But I have to disagree with you. Too much immigration may not be all that great for Canada. But, so be it. 

So now you admit and acknowledge that immigrants bring growth and properties to Canada. That is an improvement.

Never I advocated illegal immigrants or more immigrants. In fact I said many times we need to cut immigration levels in half and be more selective to avoid cultural conflicts and other problems down the road. Read my posts before quoting me falsely.

Edited September 1, 2019 by CITIZEN_2015

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Again please ANSWER my question posed to other two posters saying the same thing.

What question?  All Canadian citizens have the same rights and freedoms.  We’re talking about conditions/criteria for becoming a citizen.  We already have different categories of citizenship. Everyone likes the highly skilled that come through the points system.  People tolerate the family status entry because we understand and value family, even if the relatives don’t contribute much, as long as the family sponsors can foot most of the bill.  Accepting refugees is humanitarian do gooder business that many Canadians support, but certainly not all, and definitely less than a few years ago when the country welcomed large numbers.  Attitudes ebb and flow based on many shifting factors.  

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

What question?  All Canadian citizens have the same rights and freedoms.  We’re talking about conditions/criteria for becoming a citizen.  We already have different categories of citizenship. Everyone likes the highly skilled that come through the points system.  People tolerate the family status entry because we understand and value family, even if the relatives don’t contribute much, as long as the family sponsors can foot most of the bill.  Accepting refugees is humanitarian do gooder business that many Canadians support, but certainly not all, and definitely less than a few years ago when the country welcomed large numbers.  Attitudes ebb and flow based on many shifting factors.  

Why you are avoiding the question? Is that because you have no answer for it?

This question related to forcing immigrant to move to remote areas fr 3 years:

Are you going to create 300,000 jobs per years for doctors, engineers, school and hospital workers, l and workers of other types in those tiny remote areas with small population? Are there enough schools for immigrant teachers or hospitals for immigrant nurses or restaurants for immigrant workers or construction activities for immigrant construction workers? Or you are going to put them on social assistant programs for 3 years when they will become unemployed until they get their citizenship three years later?

[Zeitgeist]

11 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Did you read the article I included...no stagnation at varying times in the U.S. economy, which is not Canada.

More relevant to this topic, the U.S. has far more immigrants per year and an economy with the size to employ them at higher rates.

 

I don’t even know what you’re arguing.  I have a very specific take on immigration that has little to do with overall numbers and everything to do with population distribution, which is a Canadian problem of concentrated settlement in the urban south and lack of settlement in the north.  If this trend continues the divide between the urban and rural will grow and the strain on the infrastructure and environment in the most concentrated areas will lower the quality of life in cities, effectively killing the goose that lays the golden area.  

Edited September 1, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t even know what you’re arguing.  I have a very specific take on immigration that has little to do with overall numbers and everything to do with population distribution, which is a Canadian problem of concentrated settlement in the urban south and lack of settlement in the north.  If this trend continues the divide between the urban and rural will grow and the strain on the infrastructure and environment in the most concentrated areas will lower the quality of life, effectively killing the goose that lays the golden area.  

 

It's not an argument so much as a basic observation....Canada's economy and funded social services cannot effectively integrate current and even larger proposed number of immigrants and refugees.   Moving the playing field to far northern areas does not change the basic dynamic.   Comparisons to U.S. wages and circumstances are meaningless.

Many Canadians are reacting with alarm at current immigration levels, but they are being dismissed as "racists".

 

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Many Canadians are reacting with alarm at current immigration levels, but they are being dismissed as "racists".

 

Not racism.

It has nothing to do with racism. Those many Canadians don't say stop immigration from certain races or countries but reduce immigration level in general from current high level. Our hospitals are flooded with newcomers from third world countries such that Canadian born here and who are sick and in need who have contributed to building this country all their lives and who have been paying taxes for decades have to wait a long time because of that or not receive quality care. Our schools are flooded with children of new immigrants so that quality education is not possible for our own. Crime rates have gone up among many new arrivals in major cities, and with that the cost of enforcement.. Cultural conflict have started showing up our society. Immigration levels should be reduced so that new arrivals can be absorbed within our evolving system. And before you or anyone call me a racist, wait I am an immigrant myself (or foreigner according to taxme). 

Edited September 1, 2019 by CITIZEN_2015

[jacee]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Someone who hasn’t immigrated to Canada but wants to become a Canadian citizen can be required to do a number of things to obtain that citizenship.  Canada is under no obligation to them.  Once full citizenship is granted, so are all the same rights and freedoms that every Canadian has, but it’s for Canadians to set the terms of acquiring that citizenship, which can include a residency restriction for a set period.

Wouldn't you agree that new immigrants have to have mobility rights to find work? 

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/const/page-15.html

I'm not sure what you're hoping to achieve by forcing low-skilled new arrivals to go to remote northern communities with high unemployment, high costs of living, few social supports, etc.

It makes no sense to me. 

Having mobility to seek work makes sense. 

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Why you are avoiding the question? Is that because you have no answer for it?

This question related to forcing immigrant to move to remote areas fr 3 years:

Are you going to create 300,000 jobs per years for doctors, engineers, school and hospital workers, l and workers of other types in those tiny remote areas with small population? Are there enough schools for immigrant teachers or hospitals for immigrant nurses or restaurants for immigrant workers or construction activities for immigrant construction workers? Or you are going to put them on social assistant programs for 3 years when they will become unemployed until they get their citizenship three years later?

An applicant under this category would be able to seek employment in most of the country and would have to maintain an address meeting this criteria.    The workplace location would also have to meet the criteria.  It wouldn’t be 300000, but it might be a third of total immigration, say 100000.  It basically uses the incentive of citizenship to bring workers to parts of the country that have job opportunities, for example in the resource sector, but don’t have the workforce available to complete projects.  It would help the North and would be in line with the early settlement of Canada, where benefits such as land were granted as long as it was cleared and made accessible by road.  

Through planting a stake in a new land and working that land, settlers reaped huge rewards.  It may not be about farming anymore, but if remote towns had a steady boost in population and experienced some prosperity, that would create bonds with the new immigrants, who would feel that they had a real stake and investment in the community.  Yes citizenship after a few years would be a great reward, but the bigger reward is the sense of building something in Canada that wasn’t there before, of creating something with locals.  That’s probably healthier in many cases than cramming into an overpriced rooming house in Toronto.  There are many immigrant doctors in Toronto who are driving Uber.  I’m sure it can’t be worse in a part of Canada well outside Toronto where there’s a doctor shortage.  

[taxme]

18 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

So now you admit and acknowledge that immigrants bring growth and properties to Canada. That is an improvement.

Never I advocated illegal immigrants or more immigrants. In fact I said many times we need to cut immigration levels in half and be more selective to avoid cultural conflicts and other problems down the road. Read my posts before quoting me falsely.

Of course, I acknowledged and saying that more immigration means more growth but that does not mean that I am in favor of that. I said that I want less immigration, and not more. You are the one that needs to read my posts more carefully.and not try to put words in my mouth.  

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

An applicant under this category would be able to seek employment in most of the country and would have to maintain an address meeting this criteria.    The workplace location would also have to meet the criteria.  It wouldn’t be 300000, but it might be a third of total immigration, say 100000.  

Most of the country is not limited to northern and remote parts where less than 5% of population resides. Are you going to create 100,00 jobs per year in 5% of Canada for new arrivals?

Edited September 1, 2019 by CITIZEN_2015

[Zeitgeist]

19 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It's not an argument so much as a basic observation....Canada's economy and funded social services cannot effectively integrate current and even larger proposed number of immigrants and refugees.   Moving the playing field to far northern areas does not change the basic dynamic.   Comparisons to U.S. wages and circumstances are meaningless.

Many Canadians are reacting with alarm at current immigration levels, but they are being dismissed as "racists".

 

I don’t understand.  Canada’s economy is doing very well.  Low unemployment and 3.7 percent GDP growth in the last quarter.  I’m discussing issues that can be impacted through adjustments to immigration:  northern development, quality of life in cities, and overall population distribution in Canada, which is too uneven.  I support immigration even at current levels, but it’s the where and the how we’re discussing.  

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, taxme said:

Of course, I acknowledged and saying that more immigration means more growth but that does not mean that I am in favor of that. I said that I want less immigration, and not more. You are the one that needs to read my posts more carefully.and not try to put words in my mouth.  

I think you also need to read my posts more carefully because I am saying exact same thing!!!!!

[Zeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Most of the country is not limited to norther and remote parts where less than 5% of population resides. Are you going to create 100,00 jobs per year in 5% of Canada for new arrivals?

Do you know where the jobs are in Canada?  There’s a lot of mining opportunities in places like Ontario’s Ring of Fire.  We all know about the northern hydro projects.  They have created huge wealth for Quebec.  We know about subarctic diamond mines and the northern Alberta oil patch.  I’m talking about adding population to 90% of the country, which is underpopulated.  Of course, applicants under this category could simply try their luck, and if they don’t find anything, either return to their home country or apply for citizenship under another category, but they may not get in that way on the current points system.  A new category with a residential requirement is a way in for those who might not otherwise get the opportunity.  

Edited September 1, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t understand.  Canada’s economy is doing very well.  Low unemployment and 3.7 percent GDP growth in the last quarter.  I’m discussing issues that can be impacted through adjustments to immigration:  northern development, quality of life in cities, and overall population distribution in Canada, which is too uneven.  I support immigration even at current levels, but it’s the where and the how we’re discussing.  

Yes and 98% of those jobs are created where yu wish to ban new immigrants. This means 100,000 new arrivals will have to move where there are no jobs for them waiting. Unemployed for 3 years on social assistant programs.

[bush_cheney2004]

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t understand.  Canada’s economy is doing very well.  Low unemployment and 3.7 percent GDP growth in the last quarter.  I’m discussing issues that can be impacted through adjustments to immigration:  northern development, quality of life in cities, and overall population distribution in Canada, which is too uneven.  I support immigration even at current levels, but it’s the where and the how we’re discussing.  

 

There are several reasons that the north has not been populated with citizens and/or immigrants, or it would have happened already.

Your proposal would also face severe political headwinds and court challenges.

Canada also has higher net immigration losses, sending foreign skills to other nations like the USA once landed in Canada.   They will go south long before ever going north to freeze their asses off....same as other Canadians.

Edited September 1, 2019 by bush_cheney2004