Immigrants cost Canada $30 billion per year

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Do you know where the jobs are in Canada?  There’s a lot of mining opportunities in places like Ontario’s Ring of Fire.  We all know about the northern hydro projects.  They have created huge wealth for Quebec.  We know about subarctic diamond mines and the northern Alberta oil patch.  I’m talking about adding population to 90% of the country, which is underpopulated.  

So immigrant doctors and nurses and teachers will go to northern Ontario or Quebec to do mining or hydro work right? Great use of their skills.

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

So immigrant doctors and nurses and teachers will go to northern Ontario or Quebec to do mining or hydro work right? Great use of their skills.

You don’t get it.  Many northern towns have one or two key operations and more potential operations that can be started if there are enough available workers.  These towns need builders, schools, hospitals, etc.  Our doctor shortages are in these kinds of places and rural areas, not Toronto and Vancouver.  

Edited September 1, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

You don’t get it.  Many northern towns have one or two key operations and more potential operations that can be started if there are enough available workers.  These towns need builders, schools, hospitals, etc.  Our doctor shortages are in these kinds of places and rural areas, not Toronto and Vancouver.  

Again I am asking you. Do you have 100,000 new jobs each years where 2% of Canada's population reside who can work using their skill sets. Or like Stalin Russia you deport skilled workers to cold remote areas to build houses and work in mines in exile for 3 years?

Btw, the incentive is already there. Those applicants who choose those areas score higher on their application for immigration but not solely based on location. We need to based it solely on adaptability and potential of future positive contributions not solely on location or location as a main criteria or condition.

Edited September 1, 2019 by CITIZEN_2015

[Zeitgeist]

10 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Again I am asking you. Do you have 100,000 new jobs each years where 2% of Canada's population reside who can work using their skill sets. Or like Stalin Russia you deport skilled workers to cold remote areas to build houses and work in mines in exile for 3 years?

When the prairies were settled there were no promises of jobs or handouts.  There was free land that would only be granted on condition of clearing it and making it accessible.  If applicants for citizenship under this less qualified category can’t make a go of it outside Toronto and Vancouver, maybe they aren’t cut out for it.  There are many thriving communities that can accommodate newcomers, from Timmins to North Bay to Prince George.  Nice places too with lakes and mountains where you can have a big house on a big lot for the cost of a studio condo in Toronto.  

Again, no one is making anyone apply under this category, but I’m sure many would for citizenship.  It’s no different to what many Canadians already do working up north for a few years making big bucks on a rig that they can use anywhere they like in Canada.  A 3-5 year residential requirement would be worth it to many people.  

Edited September 1, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[jacee]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

What question?  All Canadian citizens have the same rights and freedoms.  We’re talking about conditions/criteria for becoming a citizen.  We already have different categories of citizenship. Everyone likes the highly skilled that come through the points system.  People tolerate the family status entry because we understand and value family, even if the relatives don’t contribute much, as long as the family sponsors can foot most of the bill.  Accepting refugees is humanitarian do gooder business that many Canadians support, but certainly not all, and definitely less than a few years ago when the country welcomed large numbers.  Attitudes ebb and flow based on many shifting factors.  

Yes, right now because of increasingly toxic level of racism and white supremacy among low-skilled, precariously employed Canadians, encouraged by ruthless conservative politicians who create fear and hatred of 'other' to keep low-skilled, precariously employed Canadians fearful and subservient. 

Regarding your ship-the-newbies-to-the-north idea, are you suggesting creating another category of immigration for them? Increasing immigration? Reducing numbers accepted through the points system? (And why would we reduce numbers of skilled immigrants?) 

You speak of improving viability of remote northern communities, then of jobs in the north but ... the communities with viability issues are not the ones near the resource jobs. 

It still makes no sense to me.

Please explain again why you want to send new immigrants to remote northern communities? Is it just a NIMBY thing, 'get them out of my city'?

And ... I think you misspoke: We don't have different categories of "citizenship", but just different routes to immigrate to Canada.

Edited September 1, 2019 by jacee

[Zeitgeist]

11 minutes ago, jacee said:

Yes, right now because of increasingly toxic level of racism and white supremacy among low-skilled, precariously employed Canadians, encouraged by ruthless conservative politicians who create fear and hatred of 'other' to keep low-skilled, precariously employed Canadians fearful and subservient. 

Regarding your ship-the-newbies-to-the-north idea, are you suggesting creating another category of immigration for them? Increasing immigration? Reducing numbers accepted through the points system? (And why would we reduce numbers of skilled immigrants?) 

You speak of improving viability of remote northern communities, then of jobs in the north but ... the communities with viability issues are not the ones near the resource jobs. 

It still makes no sense to me.

Please explain again why you want to send new immigrants to remote northern communities? 

Okay, the Ring of Fire in northern Ontario is full of precious minerals, but it’s very expensive for companies to set up shop without a guaranteed available workforce.  It’s the same all over the north.  Basically we’re restricted to costal communities and rail line settlements and there’s no incentive to build infrastructure.   

It would be a new category, yes, and what percentage of overall immigration it would represent would depend on its success.  This is my point.  You can’t provide the future markets and future workers for the high end information economy we all drone about only by recruiting software engineers to Toronto, though we’ll continue to do that.  There have to be viable population centres in the north that can support higher institutions of learning and all of the institutions we value in our large southern cities.  If we don’t find ways to incentivize northern growth, the north will continue to struggle, and eventually so will an overcrowded, environmentally stressed south.  

Edited September 1, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[jacee]

26 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Okay, the Ring of Fire in northern Ontario is full of precious minerals, but it’s very expensive for companies to set up shop without a guaranteed available workforce.  It’s the same all over the north.  Basically we’re restricted to costal communities and rail line settlements and there’s no incentive to build infrastructure.   

It would be a new category, yes, and what percentage of overall immigration it would represent would depend on its success.  This is my point.  You can’t provide the future markets and future workers for the high end information economy we all drone about only by recruiting software engineers to Toronto, though we’ll continue to do that.  There have to be viable population centres in the north that can support higher institutions of learning and all of the institutions we value in our large southern cities.  If we don’t find ways to incentivize northern growth, the north will continue to struggle, and eventually so will an overcrowded, environmentally stressed south.  

Why not provide northern  incentives to all Canadians? 

I don't think resource companies are looking for the "low-skilled" immigrants you're talking about. Those jobs pay well and I don't think they have any trouble filling them, despite the horribly isolated and addiction-prone 'man-camp' life. 

The northern cities you reference aren't remote, and I'm not aware that they're short of low-skilled workers.

I just don't think your approach adds anything we need to the immigration process. 

Let's face it: Most of us prefer to  live as far south in Canada as possible. Lol  And that's a free choice. 

Edited September 1, 2019 by jacee

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Okay, the Ring of Fire in northern Ontario is full of precious minerals, but it’s very expensive for companies to set up shop without a guaranteed available workforce.  It’s the same all over the north.  Basically we’re restricted to costal communities and rail line settlements and there’s no incentive to build infrastructure.   

 

You simplify everything. In practice it is not that easy.

I remember at a time when I lost my high paying job two decades ago I targeted companies in those areas in my field even. I received hundreds of rejections that I was either overqualified or the existing jobs don't call n my skills. Just because jobs are there you think that anyone who applies will be accepted for those positions? Obviously you don't have experience in looking fr jobs.

Edited September 1, 2019 by CITIZEN_2015

[Zeitgeist]

26 minutes ago, jacee said:

Why not provide northern  incentives to all Canadians? 

I don't think resource companies are looking for the "low-skilled" immigrants you're talking about. Those jobs pay well and I don't think they have any trouble filling them, despite the horribly isolated and addiction-prone 'man-camp' life. 

The northern cities you reference aren't remote, and I'm not aware that they're short of low-skilled workers.

I just don't think your approach adds anything we need to the immigration process. 

Let's face it: Most of us prefer to  live as far south in Canada as possible. Lol  And that's a free choice. 

Well if you don’t have a way of encouraging people to move north, they probably won’t.  The carrot of citizenship is a way.  Otherwise it’s much more settlement in major southern cities and higher home prices, unless immigration levels are slashed, as 7 out of 10 immigrants move to the GTA. 

[Argus]

3 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

So lets compare the after recession data. GDP per capita improved from $20,500 in 1995 to over $52000 in 2019 (More than twice almost three times higher).  Or from $24000 in year 2000 to more than double now. Other statistics on employment, confidence ...etc. follow the same pattern.

https://www.google.com/search?q=canada+gdp+per+capita+in+1995&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA807CA807&oq=canada+gdp+per+capita+in+1995&aqs=chrome.0.69i59.13172j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

You are distorting facts and misrepresent them to blame all problems on immigrants whereas immigrants have been the engine for economic growth not the ther way round. Yes there are some problems likely as a result of high rate of immigration (cultural conflicts, criminal activities,...etc.) but not economic issues.

You... don't know anything whatsoever about economics, do you? Or logic? Or math? You keep flailing around trying to show that this or that economic statistic has improved over some time period or other and then attributing that to immigration despite producing not a shred of evidence to that effect.

 

[Argus]

2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

So immigrant doctors and nurses and teachers will go to northern Ontario or Quebec to do mining or hydro work right? Great use of their skills.

Far more immigrants are drug dealers, uber drivers and janitors than nurses and teachers.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

Yes, right now because of increasingly toxic level of racism and white supremacy among low-skilled, precariously employed Canadians, encouraged by ruthless conservative politicians who create fear and hatred of 'other' to keep low-skilled, precariously employed Canadians fearful and subservient.

The increasing anger towards heavy immigration has nothing to do with conservative politicians, since all conservative politicians have always been enthusiastic supporters of mass immigration up until this year when Maxine Bernier became the first to call for lowering immigration. It has to do with ever increasing numbers of immigrants in Canadian communities, ever increasing numbers coming in, and a deliberate attempt by those on the Left, especially Justin Trudeau, to play identity politics.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Did you read the article I included...no stagnation at varying times in the U.S. economy, which is not Canada.

More relevant to this topic, the U.S. has far more immigrants per year and an economy with the size to employ them at higher rates.

The US has ten times Canada's population, and on that metric, much less immigration and far fewer immigrants. 13.7% of the US is foreign born vs over 20% in Canada.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t understand.  Canada’s economy is doing very well.  Low unemployment and 3.7 percent GDP growth in the last quarter. 

Canada's unemployment rate is officially at 5.7%. Economic growth is expected to be a very unexciting 1.4%

Nonetheless, past weakness will restrain growth this year to a modest 1.4 percent, before an acceleration to 1.7 percent in 2020

https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/insights/economy/americas/canada-economic-outlook.html

Meanwhile, the unemployment rate in the US is 3.1% with 2.6% growth (on much less immigration). The UK unemployment rate is 3.9% (on much less immigration)

Edited September 1, 2019 by Argus

[Guest]

 

4 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

True. But I ask you now!!

Sure.  Why do you need 300000 jobs?  You said yourself we need to cut immigration levels in half and be more selective.  Let's select people who want to settle somewhere outside the lower 100 miles.

Like I said, ask them.

You never answered my question.  Why are people who live in northern and remote communities second class citizens?

[jacee]

5 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Why are people who live in northern and remote communities second class citizens?

That's not the issue.

It's immigrants being forced to live there - not having a choice, not having mobility rights - that could be considered creating a 'second class' of citizens. 

I don't think it's a useful idea anyway. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, jacee said:

That's not the issue.

It's immigrants being forced to live there - not having a choice, not having mobility rights - that could be considered creating a 'second class' of citizens. 

I don't think it's a useful idea anyway. 

Well, nobody has to immigrate.  I would definitely be against forcing people to immigrate.

I would certainly give them the choice of staying where they are.  It's only fair.

[jacee]

17 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Well, nobody has to immigrate.  I would definitely be against forcing people to immigrate.

I would certainly give them the choice of staying where they are.  It's only fair.

 I guess you just choose to miss the point. 

But it doesn't matter, because this thread is all just as fake and misleading as the topic header, just another mlw sh!t show for white supremacists. Lol 

Edited September 2, 2019 by jacee

[Guest]

Just now, jacee said:

 I guess you just choose to miss the point. 

Sure.  But why go over it again?  I already said I didn't care about the mobility rights of landed immigrants.  That once one becomes a citizen they can go where they want.  But if they really want to immigrate, Prince Rupert might be a nice spot.  Or Flin Flon.

[jacee]

On 8/21/2019 at 3:39 PM, Shady said:

That's enough to balance the budget.

Well, Shady, it's fake.

So don't get your hopes up. Lol 

If we magically got rid of all the immigrants (1985 to present), we would lose $75b/year in tax revenues. 

If you read the article to see what the main point is,  it isn't about the costs of immigrants or immigration at all. 

It's a lament that immigrants don't make as much money as other Canadians, so they don't pay as much in taxes. 

But in fact, using their own data (of doubtful accuracy, but ...), we're raking in $75b a year in taxes from immigrants. 

 If it's more tax revenues we want, I think we'd be better to look to the rich people stashing their money offshore, evading Canadian taxes. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by jacee

[marcus]

10 hours ago, Argus said:

Then we ought to be importing tradesmen. We're not.

We are 'importing' tradesmen through the immigration program. We are also 'importing' people in other sectors that are desperately needed in Canada.

Quote

No, it's actually bullshit. There is no evidence we have a labour shortage except in small, specific areas. Nor is immigration going to do much, if anything, for our aging workforce.

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-alas-immigration-wont-replace-canadas-aging-workforce

There is ample evidence that we have labour shortage and this labour shortage is affecting businesses in a negative way. Stop denying facts:

 

 

 

Quote

This too is, of course, bullshit. People retiring don't stop being taxpayers.

No one said they stop paying taxes. What was said was that the retired don't pay enough towards social services to make up for what they're costing social services.

Quote

We've got them. We have no shortage of workers and none is foreseen in the near future. There, happy?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/budget-watchdog-finds-little-evidence-of-labour-skills-shortages-1.2585468

Thanks for the 2014 article. The article says that there are areas that there is a shortage of skilled workers. 

Quote

No, the majority are coming in through the family unification program. Only 17% of those who come to Canada are skilled workers tested for skills, language, etc.

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/bissett-immigration-policy-is-out-of-control-and-needs-an-overhaul

Really? You're so desperate in trying to cover the misinformation you're trying to spread in regards to immigration, that you've gone as low as finding some opinion piece that misrepresents the reality? Shame on you. This opinion piece, devoid of any reference to statistics is from someone who is probably in his 80s or maybe even 90s. This is a guy who defended Slobodan Milošević. 

The total number admitted through the economic category was 155,994, which is majority of the immigrants coming to Canada. This whole thing about "everyone in the family must be assessed for language" is not going to fly. It's about whether or not an immigrant can become economically established and how well they will do in the long run, including their children. As I have shown you repeatedly, the children of immigrants end up doing quite well in education and filling skilled jobs. They do better than non-immigrants. Especially those from China, India and the Middle East.

Here are the statistics in regards to the immigrants admitted into Canada, including those coming in under the Economic programs - This information, which confirms what I have said, which is majority of immigrants who come to Canada, come through the Economic category.

 

Quote

And what about the ones who are in their 40s, 50s, and 70s who have little savings and skills that aren't really very adaptable here?

The few who are coming in, who fall under what you're describing end up having children who do well, as I keep showing you and as you keep disregarding.

 

Quote

Good for you. Many people however, like Canada and Canadians, and don't revel in living surrounded by foreigners. For people like you who do, might I suggest going and living somewhere else, since you clearly have no attachment to this place?

Calm down Trump.

How about I am going to continue to live in Canada, while promoting real Canadian values, and you can go and isolate yourself, repeating misinformation, avoiding reality in your bubble of ignorance and bigotry.

Edited September 2, 2019 by marcus

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, jacee said:

 I guess you just choose to miss the point. 

But it doesn't matter, because this thread is all just as fake and misleading as the topic header, just another mlw sh!t show for white supremacists. Lol 

We can say shit on here, can't we?

Well, we'll see...

 

Edit> Yeah, I thought we could.

Edited September 2, 2019 by bcsapper

[jacee]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

You don’t get it.  Many northern towns have one or two key operations and more potential operations that can be started if there are enough available workers.  These towns need builders, schools, hospitals, etc.  Our doctor shortages are in these kinds of places and rural areas, not Toronto and Vancouver.  

Yes there are doctor shortages in Vancouver, and in southern Ontario cities too.  

The doctor shortages are because of lack of funding for regular medical school spots, and for requalification spots for doctors who immigrate here, arguably, because the current medical establishment assures itself of lots of patients and high incomes.  

You keep talking as if there are labour shortages in northern cities. Do you have any evidence to support that? 

Edited September 2, 2019 by jacee

[jacee]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

The increasing anger towards heavy immigration has nothing to do with conservative politicians, since all conservative politicians have always been enthusiastic supporters of mass immigration up until this year when Maxine Bernier became the first to call for lowering immigration. It has to do with ever increasing numbers of immigrants in Canadian communities, ever increasing numbers coming in, and a deliberate attempt by those on the Left, especially Justin Trudeau, to play identity politics.

No, it's just the same old prejudice, in particular anti-Muslim prejudice now, and business leaders stirring  up those prejudices among people who are fearful for their jobs. Keeps them subservient so they don't ask for raises, and if they lose their job, they'll blame 'the immigrants' instead of their bosses. Lol 

 

[Michael Hardner]

39 minutes ago, marcus said:

 I am going to continue to live in Canada, while promoting real Canadian values, and you can go and isolate yourself, repeating misinformation, avoiding reality in your bubble of ignorance and bigotry.

Pointing out that our points system prioritizes economic advantages for Canada, also.

Side note: you have done a great job of backing up your points.  People who claim that there's not enough dialogue on immigration pretty much always side with low-information emotive arguments.   And then they claim that people 'shut down' the arguments.

Well, make one then.