The Land Is Strong

[jacee]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I disagree about the notion of “keeping the Indians down.”  I think most Canadians want to see Indigenous peoples and cultures thrive.  It’s a matter of whether they can do it as a self-sustaining segment of society (e.g. fishermen), as is the case on many Indigenous territories out west, or if they will rely too heavily on outside support (e.g. recipients of fish).  There has to be a recognition that if a people cannot sustain themselves separate from the rest of Canada, perhaps they’re better off either joining a more prosperous Indigenous group in another location, or else becoming more integrated within mainstream Canadian society.  It’s not a bad thing.  Where possible a language and culture should be preserved.  When the living conditions and mental health within a community become unbearable without outside help, that’s the time for change.  Of course seeking resource development and educating people helps.  I do think we need more learning about Indigenous peoples.  We also need open and honest dialogue.  Apologizing all the time and making sugary and disingenuous statements thanking Indigenous people for taking care of private or municipal property when they are not won’t help much.

You spout nonsense.

You can't forcibly remove Indigenous people from their traditional territory.

We can release more appropriate funding levels from Indigenous Trust Funds- e.g., equal educational funding per student would be a good start. 

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, jacee said:

You spout nonsense.

You can't forcibly remove Indigenous people from their traditional territory.

We can release more appropriate funding levels from Indigenous Trust Funds- e.g., equal educational funding per student would be a good start. 

I would never support forcibly removing Indigenous people from their homeland.  C’mon.  I’m saying there may be some communities that decide to move.  

[Yzermandius19]

9 hours ago, jacee said:

Do you like having a Health card? 

People having health cards does not make someone the greatest Canadian, except to George Stroumboulopoulos and other Eskimo Communists huffing the CBC paint.

[jacee]

7 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I would never support forcibly removing Indigenous people from their homeland.  C’mon.  I’m saying there may be some communities that decide to move.  

Don't count on it.They have chosen not to leave their traditional territories until now, and that won't likely change. It is not a viable 'strategy'.

You are aware that some Indigenous communities were forcibly relocated in the past? It was not a good thing for them and it won't be repeated by government. 

Supporting them in place with adequate housing, and funding are necessary, comparable to the rest of us.

Funding for 'public' housing and education (per student) should be comparable, and it is not! 

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by jacee

[jacee]

3 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

People having health cards does not make someone the greatest Canadian, except to George Stroumboulopoulos and other Eskimo Communists huffing the CBC paint.

Tommy Douglas and the CCP/NDP started the process that led to universal Health care in Canada.

Universal Health care is why Canadians of all political parties voted Tommy Douglas "greatest Canadian".

The term "Eskimo Communist" is offensive. Are you 12? 

Edited March 3, 2019 by jacee
Add

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, jacee said:

Don't count on it.They have chosen not to leave their traditional territories until now, and that won't likely change. It is not a viable 'strategy'.

You are aware that some Indigenous communities were forcibly relocated in the past? It was not a good thing for them and it won't be repeated by government. 

Supporting them in place with adequate housing, and funding are necessary, comparable to the rest of us.

Funding for 'public' housing and education (per student) should be comparable, and it is not! 

 

See you’re exemplifying the problem that is holding back a good percentage of Canada’s Indigenous peoples.  Who thinks in terms of being supported in place?  Are they babies to be taken care of?  It’s patronizing and insulting.  The expense of shipping food by plane, flying ailing people to hospital in the south, and the pain of children having to leave their parents and community behind to live by a school they can attend in the south takes a huge toll psychologically and financially.  There are suicides and substance abuse in communities that can offer few healthy outlets for people.  

Are you saying that if such communities can’t afford to bear the costs of elevating their situation with their “trust fund” that taxpayers should pay the high cost of sustaining such an unsustainable place?  That’s why the problem won’t get fixed, because most Canadians won’t consent to funding such a money pit. I’m not talking about most Indigenous communities, but there are some that have struggled for too long.  Again, the decision to consolidate such a place won’t be imposed on the people living there.  It has to come from within the community.  

It’s disingenuous, however, to show footage of conditions of some of these communities on the CBC and say that the Canadian government isn’t doing enough for people on such lands if the people on those lands cannot generate funding themselves, for example through resource development, leases, etc., to fix their housing.  In that case it’s basically a public housing project paid for by people off the reserve/territory.  Don’t you see that such a place isn’t a healthy community?   It doesn’t lift people up or make them independent.  It’s bad for children.  What about health and education?  Ultimately kids end up having to leave.  That’s the other side of the argument for residential schools and the higher rate of removals of children from the home by Child and Family Services.  

Residential schools are done thankfully.   Everyone agrees that not allowing children to speak their native language and express their cultural beliefs is wrong. New legislation will ensure that issues with child welfare and neglect will be solved within Indigenous communities rather than through removal from the reserve.  Obviously problems should be solved as much as possible within the reserve, but it’s a lie to say that all communities, no matter how desperate, small, distant, and dependent on outside support, should remain in place and be supported from the outside.  

Self-sustainability is what it means to live your culture independently.  Is a public housing project really what it means to live according to the traditional way of life?  It’s the inability or unwillingness to answer such questions reasonably that shuts down serious resolution of the problems Indigenous people face in Canada.  Too many unsustainable communities that are reliant on outside support that will never be enough.  Too little opportunity for people living in some of these communities that children ultimately end up having to leave for education and opportunity, and the emotional price children pay for leaving their families.  

Edited March 3, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Self-sustainability is what it means to live your culture independently.  Is a public housing project really what it means to live according to the traditional way of life?  It’s the inability or unwillingness to answer such questions reasonably that shuts down serious resolution of the problems Indigenous people face in Canada.  Too many unsustainable communities that are reliant on outside support that will never be enough.  Too little opportunity for people living in some of these communities that children ultimately end up having to leave for education and opportunity, and the emotional price children pay for leaving their families.  

 

How many other small, non "aboriginal" communities in Canada can meet this standard ?    Are they self sufficient for roads, bridges, ferries, electrification, natural gas/propane, schools, health care, water/sewage, etc. without government outlays above their tax base ?    Are they consolidated with voluntary or forced removals ?

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

How many other small, non "aboriginal" communities in Canada can meet this standard ?    Are they self sufficient for roads, bridges, ferries, electrification, natural gas/propane, schools, health care, water/sewage, etc. without government outlays above their tax base ?    Are they consolidated with voluntary or forced removals ?

There were remote non-Indigenous communities in Newfoundland that were relocated for similar reasons.  Too few people and too little work.  One solution is directing immigration to such communities, however that can’t happen on Indigenous territory.  This is part of the problem with the reserve system: Cultural protectorate can also mean ethnic ghetto, and an impoverished one if there’s no or little self-generated income.  

Edited March 3, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Yzermandius19]

6 hours ago, jacee said:

Tommy Douglas and the CCP/NDP started the process that led to universal Health care in Canada.

Universal Health care is why Canadians of all political parties voted Tommy Douglas "greatest Canadian".

The term "Eskimo Communist" is offensive. Are you 12? 

Universal Health Care, does not the Greatest Canadian make. Eskimo Communists disagree because they love their nanny welfare gulag and overrate it to a religious degree, but that is to be expected.

If you want to go around looking for things to be offended by, that isn't my problem.
/shrugs

Edited March 3, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[August1991]

On 3/2/2019 at 9:22 PM, jacee said:

Cuba's doing fine. We can take a lesson. It's not about toadying to the billionaires. It's about serving the needs of the  people.  

 

Cuba is a disaster. I've been there.

=====

But my OP has a different point.

In 1972, Pierre Trudeau (Trudeau Snr) chose as campaign slogan in English-Canada: "The Land is Strong" (In Quebec, he chose "Ensemble".) Whacky, but well-intentioned.

I reckon that our current PM (Trudeau Jnr) is a product of such thinking.

Well, in 1974, Trudeau Snr changed slogans. As he famously said, "No more philosopher king."

So, Trudeau Jnr is more Margaret than Pierre.

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by August1991

[taxme]

On 3/2/2019 at 1:52 PM, Dougie93 said:

Left is towards the mob, right is towards the Crown.   PET was the bulwark of the Crown against the Pequiste Mob.   I have no partisan loyalty but for Her Majesty.

And her majesty has no loyalty to you nor cares about you. The crown just takes there share of our tax dollars paid(stolen)from us.   

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, taxme said:

And her majesty has no loyalty to you nor cares about you. The crown just takes there share of our tax dollars paid(stolen)from us.   

Her Majesty is a contract, the Queen is the constitution, and she has treated me well, gainfully employed me from a young age, retired me into the landed gentry, GSTQ

I am a high school drop out, yet I live in palace now by the standards I grew up with.

[taxme]

On 3/2/2019 at 1:56 PM, Zeitgeist said:

Canada was never a WASP nation.  It was anglophone and francophone from the beginning, with protected First Nations treaties.  Yes Ontario and parts of the west were once very Orange, just as Quebec and parts of the East were very much under French influence and under the thumb of the Catholic Church.  Bilingualism, multiculturalism, and the Quiet Revolution has changed all of that.  What we have now is not primarily of France or England.  It’s Canadian.  Trudeau played a role in that. 

What the hell are you trying to say here? In the beginning of Canada, Canada was very much a WASP nation. Very British and very white and not very non-British and not very non-white.

Hello.  

[taxme]

On 3/2/2019 at 6:22 PM, jacee said:

Cuba's doing fine. We can take a lesson. It's not about toadying to the billionaires. It's about serving the needs of the  people.  

When people have no freedom of speech the needs of the people are being denied. Cuba is not doing fine. Just the billionaire communists in the government are doing fine. If you paid attention to leaders of the many socialist and communist country's of today and in the past you will see that many were/are millionaires or billionaires. The people(slaves)have nothing but poverty and always live in fear of their communist governments. The only lesson that Cuba teaches us all is that communism is not all that great at all. It is a system of slavery with no freedom for it's people. 

[Rue]

26 minutes ago, taxme said:

When people have no freedom of speech the needs of the people are being denied. Cuba is not doing fine. Just the billionaire communists in the government are doing fine. If you paid attention to leaders of the many socialist and communist country's of today and in the past you will see that many were/are millionaires or billionaires. The people(slaves)have nothing but poverty and always live in fear of their communist governments. The only lesson that Cuba teaches us all is that communism is not all that great at all. It is a system of slavery with no freedom for it's people. 

To start with no comparing their freedom of speech to what you have in Canada its not the same. No they can not speak out openly against the government in a certain way. Can you?

Seriously. You think your media is not controlled by the government of the day or special interest groups that prevent free discussion? Really? You so sure?

Billionaire communists? Really? Name them. The privileges exist such as access to medicine, alcohol, sex not money. You really need to look at what constitutes privilege in Cuba. Billionaires? Yah right. Where does the money come from? Get real. You have any idea what kind of clamp down is on the Cuba economy? Clearly not.

You claim poverty in Cuba. Compared to who? Canada? Do you have any idea that the poorest of people in Cuba still eat better than the poorest of Canadians?  Go find out. Yah they have a shortage of aspirin, shampoo, soap, sanitary napkins, fresh beef or pork, but they have fruit and certain vegetables and they manage to feed everyone and treat them.

Their poor have better education than the poor in Canada.

It is absurd to compare the poverty level in Cuba and Canada. You are trying to measure them by material values, values such as t.v.'s, cars, house size, furniture, things Cubans don't place the same values on. Tell me who has more musicians? Who has more artists, scientists per population? Go find out.

Cuba is by far perfect. Their is corruption. There is prostitution. There are problems yes. But its not the nightmare bullshit state you define it as.

Cubans don't need your analysis. They can live without your flat screened TV's and suv's. Their athletes, the vast  majority of them stay home, they don't leave when they can, likewise their doctors and intelligentsia.

Freedom of speech denied? Get back to me and ask me what happens in our political parties when you disagree with your leader..

Edited March 5, 2019 by Rue

[Rue]

45 minutes ago, taxme said:

And her majesty has no loyalty to you nor cares about you. The crown just takes there share of our tax dollars paid(stolen)from us.   

The Crown refers to what exactly? Do you mean Canadian government because that is not the Crown. The Crown is used to describe the head of state. The head of state is figurative. Tell me what Canadian tax money goes to Queen Liz. That would be news to me.

If you are questioning whether the federal government wastes money of course it does. So do you. Its a problem of course. Don't act like its stolen from you. I am sure you steal as much as is stolen from you. Your playing victim of the state is something everyone does and feels.

However when you do need medical care, an ambulance, the fire department, they will be there.

Don't tell me you didn't go to school, use any roads, flush your toilet ever. Your country that you piss on is not perfect but compared to other countries and their degrees of corruption and inefficiency you have no clue how good you have it.

You need to travel and go work for a relief organization. You smell of privilege in your comments. Its easy to piss on a country whose services you take for granted as a given.

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Rue

[jacee]

45 minutes ago, taxme said:

What the hell are you trying to say here? In the beginning of Canada, Canada was very much a WASP nation. Very British and very white and not very non-British and not very non-white.

Hello.  

Unhhhhh ... Canada was first all Indigenous Peoples, then a French Catholic colony, Metis out west, then English/Irish/Scottish.

Southern Ontario became largely Orange-run. 

Canada was never all WASP.

Where the hell are you from?

Not here! 

Edited March 5, 2019 by jacee

[Rue]

41 minutes ago, taxme said:

What the hell are you trying to say here? In the beginning of Canada, Canada was very much a WASP nation. Very British and very white and not very non-British and not very non-white.

Hello.  

Canada was never a Wasp nation. It was and remains a  majority Catholic nation.

 

[Zeitgeist]

 

41 minutes ago, taxme said:

What the hell are you trying to say here? In the beginning of Canada, Canada was very much a WASP nation. Very British and very white and not very non-British and not very non-white.

Hello.  

In 1876, the year Canada became a country, there were about as many or more francophones in Canada as anglophones.  Quebec had more people in it than Ontario. 

[Rue]

Just now, jacee said:

Unhhhhh ... Canada was first all Indigenous Peoples, then a French Catholic colony, Metis out west, then English/Irish/Scottish.

Southern Ontario became largely Orange-run. 

Canada was never all WASP.

You are of course right. It was and remains majority Catholic by a wide margin especially in Canada. Our buddy lives in a neo Nazi fantasy world.

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, Rue said:

Canada was never a Wasp nation. It was and remains a  majority Catholic nation.

 

Constitutionally protected Catholic and Protestant. 

[Rue]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

 

In 1876, the year Canada became a country, there were about as many or more francophones in Canada as anglophones.  Quebec had more people in it than Ontario. 

More to the point and Statistics Canada can show you, the majority in Canada was and is (other than aboriginal people) majority Catholic.

[Rue]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Constitutionally protected Catholic and Protestant. 

Yes that is a legal fact. So are indigenous cultures and values constitutionally protected.

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, Rue said:

More to the point and Statistics Canada can show you, the majority in Canada was and is (other than aboriginal people) majority Catholic.

Yes.  The publicly funded Catholic education system scores higher academically too than the secular public, which is why it hasn’t disappeared from all provinces, though it has from some.  

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, Rue said:

Yes that is a legal fact. So are indigenous cultures and values constitutionally protected.

Yes