The Death of the Federal Liberal Party

[Queenmandy85]

If any province separates, it will make no economic difference. Economics are determined by geography. Most of our daily life is determined by geography.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Climate change is the greatest threat ever faced by humanity. Minor changes in climate brought down the Roman civilization in Europe, and caused the great famine in Europe in the early 14th century. 

We have far, far more ability to cope with changes in climate than the Romans had. And oceans to keep the barbarian hordes away, if we stop acting soft headed about it.

Quote

No matter who gets elected this fall, the threat will not go away. If the CPC form the Government, they will still have to take action.

Why? Nobody else is. The Chinese say they'll try to slow their immense growth in a few decades. The Indians too. Canada produces 1.7% of world CO2. China increased its CO2 production last year by, effectively, the entirety of Canada's emissions. India was right behind. Nobody in the third world is committed to reducing CO2 emission in the near term, and are almost all frantically building power plants - often coal fired power plants - for more energy production. Anything Canada could possibly do would be utterly ineffective and unnoticed.

Quote

The yellow vests are whining about immigration but do not want to tackle global warming. If we don't do what is needed now, we could have 400 million people moving north into Canada when the south becomes uninhabitable. The death of the liberal party pales in comparison to what is coming.

Pretty sure the Americans would build their wall before that happened, and start shooting people at the border, for that matter.

Say, here's an idea. If we weren't adding 350,000 new people each year maybe it would be easier to reduce our CO2 emissions! Ya think!? So maybe the Liberals ought to stop raising immigration levels, and instead consider lowering them.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Argus

[Zeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The appetite will return, a combination of displacements are going to rain down on Canada, people will be forced to adapt, Quebec will do what Quebec does, which is blame Canada and have a referendum.

A non-issue right now. Canada East would be opposed in Quebec whether or not it was independent.  Quebec needs to see that it’s exceptionalism in pipelines prevents the province from obtaining the construction jobs, royalties, and energy independence to pay for her prized programs and fertile business climate.  They may see this now that the shoe is on the other foot as one of its own, SNC is facing possibly crippling penalties due to bad business ethics.  Under the Green New Deal, environmental stewardship is no different an ethical imperative to non corrupt business practices.  There will be no distinction.  Quebec can’t pretend to be beyond reproach environmentally yet look the other way on bribery.  

The Yellow Vests will likely support high taxes on the rich.  They may not support carbon taxes on everyone.  That’s the new opposition, environmentalists vs Yellow Vests.  It barely involves the right, which is why I think we’ll see the rise of left wing populism drown out Trump. 

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

A non-issue right now. Canada East would be opposed in Quebec whether or not it was independent.

The majority of the people of Quebec want energy east. But those people are a lot less fanatic about it than those who oppose it. So the politicians are going with the latter group.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Argus

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The Yellow Vests will likely support high taxes on the rich.  They may not support carbon taxes on everyone.  That’s the new opposition, environmentalists vs Yellow Vests.  It barely involves the right, which is why I think we’ll see the rise of left wing populism drown out Trump. 

 

The leftists already had their chance against Trump...and blew it.    French and American political conflicts do not directly translate to Canada, which already had national and regional fault lines long before Brexit or Trump.

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The leftists already had their chance against Trump...and blew it.    French and American political conflicts do not directly translate to Canada, which already had national and regional fault lines long before Brexit or Trump.

Let’s see what happens.  Warren and Cortez are both pushing the Green New Deal.  

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Let’s see what happens.  Warren and Cortez are both pushing the Green New Deal.  

 

The "Green New Deal" is an aspirational ideal divorced from the actual foundation in American depression era politics, but plays well as political rhetoric.   Relevance to Canadian party politics in an election year is unclear to me.  Warren and Cortez are neither original or capable of garnering enough support to sustain change in the U.S., even less so in Canada. 

[scribblet]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

If the Liberal Party were to die, it would be replaced by another liberal Party. It reflects the views of a significant number of voters. When the Reform Party made a hostile take over of the Progressive Conservative party, it lost a portion of the Red Tory base. It took several years for enough Red Tories to drift back into the CPC to enable them to form a majority government. There is a broad band of voters in the centre of the spectrum, call them blue Liberals or Red Tories, that determine who will form a government.

It was not a 'hostile take over',  there was a vote in which the majority of PCs agreed to unite the right. 

[Dougie93]

22 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The "Green New Deal" is an aspirational ideal divorced from the actual foundation in American depression era politics, but plays well as political rhetoric.   Relevance to Canadian party politics in an election year is unclear to me.  Warren and Cortez are neither original or capable of garnering enough support to sustain change in the U.S., even less so in Canada. 

Zeitgeist lives in the Dem n' Cuck bubble,  whatever the liberal media says, Zeitgeist clearly clings to it tenaciously, even after the media has been discredited as getting everything wrong so far.

Butt Hurt lefties gonna butt hurt, mainly by declaring that the right is going to be brought down by a leftist socialist revolution. 

Any time now.  Won't be long now.  Here it comes.   He can't keep getting away with it!

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

A non-issue right now.

Right now is fleeting.  The Americans have just begun the process of squeezing  the Canadian supply managed socialist economy, climate change is just now starting to do real damage to the governance of states, the stronger states will weather it, but weak states like Canadian Confederation will crack under the pressure.

[Zeitgeist]

20 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Zeitgeist lives in the Dem n' Cuck bubble,  whatever the liberal media says, Zeitgeist clearly clings to it tenaciously, even after the media has been discredited as getting everything wrong so far.

Butt Hurt lefties gonna butt hurt, mainly by declaring that the right is going to be brought down by a leftist socialist revolution. 

Any time now.  Won't be long now.  Here it comes.   He can't keep getting away with it!

I’m fiscally and somewhat socially conservative.  I see both Trudeau and Trump as irresponsible big spenders.  I’m basically a Red Tory and believe that Bill Davis is about as good as it gets in politics.  Nevertheless, the rich have never been richer and Trump has exacerbated the problem of socio-economic polarization and overspending.  The US is less democratic these days given all the gerrymandering. Also I believe climate change is real and should be fought through responsible public policy that will have real impact without creating onerous costs for businesses and individuals.  I also believe in good international rules that improve labour and environmental conditions and create a level playing field for international trade. 

Edited February 18, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

Bottom line, Canada is held together by one tenuous thing, and that is bribing Quebec with other peoples money.

That is not sustainable, climate change really will come crashing down on the Canadian economy, the global economy really is a giant ultra leveraged bubble.

When the bubble pops, Canada will not be able to bribe Quebec anymore.

Once the spigot is turned off, there will be no more reason for Quebec to remain in Confederation, but there will be lots of reasons for them to want a legislative and constitional firewall between Ottawa and Quebec City.

[Queenmandy85]

45 minutes ago, scribblet said:

It was not a 'hostile take over',  there was a vote in which the majority of PCs agreed to unite the right. 

Maybe it was just me but I sure felt a lot of hostility from the reformers.

 

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Why? Nobody else is. The Chinese say they'll try to slow their immense growth in a few decades. The Indians too. Canada produces 1.7% of world CO2. China increased its CO2 production last year by, effectively, the entirety of Canada's emissions. India was right behind. Nobody in the third world is committed to reducing CO2 emission in the near term, and are almost all frantically building power plants - often coal fired power plants - for more energy production. Anything Canada could possibly do would be utterly ineffective and unnoticed.

You are probably right but one thing we could do is export nuclear power plants to china and India on a large scale. It beats giving up and throwing our descendants on the barbecue.

 

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Say, here's an idea. If we weren't adding 350,000 new people each year maybe it would be easier to reduce our CO2 emissions! Ya think!? So maybe the Liberals ought to stop raising immigration levels, and instead consider lowering them.

On that, we are in complete agreement.

[Dougie93]

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I’m fiscally and somewhat socially conservative.  I see both Trudeau and Trump as irresponsible big spenders.  I’m basically a Red Tory and believe that Bill Davis is about as good as it gets in politics.  Nevertheless, the rich have never been richer and Trump has exacerbated the problem of socio-economic polarization and overspending.  The US is less democratic these days given all the gerrymandering. Also I believe climate change is real and should be fought through responsible public policy that will have real impact without creating onerous costs for businesses and individuals.  

Fiscally, I am liberal, socially,  I am libertarian, I am simply a Tory in the classical sense, the thing to conserve is the British Crown, everything else is negotiable.

Gerrymandering is more democratic, democracy is about achieving power without having a violent insurrection. That is the only problem democracy solves, otherwise it is useless.

The Americans are not really overspending, that is just a meme, a 20 trillion dollar mortgage is easily carried by a 20 trillion dollar GDP which is the only safe harbour in the world for capital.

So America is fine, the Flight to Quality will allow the Americans to spend way more, trillion dollar trips to Mars n' shit.

Canada however, does not attract capital, so Canada will continue to decouple and go into a crisis while the Americans roll on without it.

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Bottom line, Canada is held together by one tenuous thing, and that is bribing Quebec with other peoples money.

That is not sustainable, climate change really will come crashing down on the Canadian economy, the global economy really is a giant ultra leveraged bubble.

When the bubble pops, Canada will not be able to bribe Quebec anymore.

Once the spigot is turned off, there will be no more reason for Quebec to remain in Confederation, but there will be lots of reasons for them to want a legislative and constitional firewall between Ottawa and Quebec City.

Your narrative about an improbable breakup of Canada is besides the point.  Quebec will be Quebec.  The war of attrition was won. Quebec is an independent nation within Canada.  Even the Conservatives recognize that reality. Recognition was a a Harper resolution. We’ve moved on from that constitutional debate, which is a waste of time, energy, and money, not to mention bad for business.  The rest of Canada is becoming more like Quebec culturally in some ways, which serves Quebec.  The real issue is acting environmentally responsible enough to meet genuine climate change concerns and keep the environmental extremists, mostly in B.C., at bay, along with other radical special interests.  Canada needs to unlock its resource potential.  The Charter protects minority interests quite effectively.  Trudeau doesn’t seem able to get anything done that will strengthen Canada economically. He’s buried in social justice demands from special interests. 

[Dougie93]

Not improbable at all, as it is already broken, the last referendum came so close, the Pequistes won it by default. 

They know they can leave anytime and there's nothing Canada could nor would  do about it, Canada knows this too, and so is reduced to bribing them to keep the country together.

This is not fiscally sustainable.   Ergo;  heading towards a break up as we speak.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

Bear in mind, Legault is the Pequistes, he's just the Pequiste who is tasked with extracting more money out of Ottawa, until Ottawa runs out of money.

[Zeitgeist]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Bear in mind, Legault is the Pequistes, he's just the Pequiste who is tasked with extracting more money out of Ottawa, until Ottawa runs out of money.

Nonissue just like American invasion of Canada.  Nothing changes because we’re all liberal democtrats.  Basically the people have elected the country that they have and they will likely continue to do so.  There will be tweaks and sometimes more jarring changes, but no revolutions.  The country is peaceful and strong.

[Dougie93]

There's not going to be a war, because there is a Clarity Act, Quebec can and will cede by peaceful democratic means.

Then Ontario will snap awake and realize that Ontario needs a new deal as well, and then I will be free of Quebec and they will be free of me.

[Dougie93]

In terms of the Americans invading Canada, there is no need, Canada has signed the Continental Defense and Security Agreement which places Canadian Forces under American command at US NORTHCOM, so if the Americans are need to use military force in Canada, they will simply direct the Canadian Army to do it.

[Zeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

There's not going to be a war, because there is a Clarity Act, Quebec can and will cede by peaceful democratic means.

Then Ontario will snap awake and realize that Ontario needs a new deal as well, and then I will be free of Quebec and they will be free of me.

Free to go where to do what?  What would change for the better?  Sure, rich city elites won’t have to send as much money to the poorer hinterland.  Runs counter to our communitarian culture, so I doubt it would happen. 

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Free to go where to do what?  What would change for the better?  Sure, rich city elites won’t have to send as much money to the poorer hinterland.  Runs counter to our communitarian culture, so I doubt it would happen. 

The better change would be that the interests of the various regions would be under those regions self determination, and so while the interests would still be in conflict, without Confederation, everyone would have to negotiate for a change.  Once there is no way for one region to rule the other with the jackboot of Ottawa, everyone will calm down and so be more willing to quid pro quo, as opposed to now, where they dig their heels in and rouse rabble.

Because they are afraid.  They are afraid of their interests being stomped on.  Take that fear away; much better.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

29 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Your narrative about an improbable breakup of Canada is besides the point.  Quebec will be Quebec.  The war of attrition was won. Quebec is an independent nation within Canada.  Even the Conservatives recognize that reality. Recognition was a a Harper resolution. We’ve moved on from that constitutional debate, which is a waste of time, energy, and money, not to mention bad for business.  The rest of Canada is becoming more like Quebec...

 

Right...and it is that very Canadian narrative that makes admonishments about "unity" somewhat laughable.  For the Canadian body politic, "unity" is just redefined and morphed to whatever the practical realities may be at the time, including "multiculturalism".

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Right...and it is that very Canadian narrative that makes admonishments about "unity" somewhat laughable.  For the Canadian body politic, "unity" is just redefined and morphed to whatever the practical realities may be at the time, including "multiculturalism".

And ultimately all "unity" boils down to the fascistic invocation of America being the Reb Menace at the gates poised to make Canadians have "assault rifles" or something or other, even though you can buy an "assault rifle" legally, in Canada, right now.

[scribblet]

50 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Maybe it was just me but I sure felt a lot of hostility from the reform

None felt here at all, and it was actually Canadian alliance