Indigenous blockade in BC & related protests

[Dougie93]

In the case of Oka however, it was in fact the Mohawks who invoked the British Crown, it was in fact the SQ who were imperiling its rule.

But this is exactly why Prime Minister Mulroney removed the SQ from the equation, and put the Canadian Army in charge.

At which point the situation was stabilized and resolved peacefully henceforth.

Professional soldiers are more professional than cops, who knew?

[jacee]

On 2/24/2019 at 1:24 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Why are the "aboriginals" (totally imperialist word) in British Columbia on unceded territory bound by anything the provincial government does/decides in the first place?

What does "unceded" mean in Canada ?   Does it mean that it still belongs to the old lady with Corgis across the pond ?

Zeitgeist is not quite correct.

"Unceded" territory means it is Indigenous land: It was Indigenous territory at contact, and it was never ceded to the Crown via treaty, etc.

The Royal Proclamation of 1763 lays out these laws:

"any other Lands, which, not having been ceded to, or purchased by Us, are still reserved to the said Indians "

"We do, with the Advice of Our Privy Council, strictly enjoin and require, that no private Person do presume to make any Purchase from the said Indians of any Lands reserved to the said Indians, within those Parts of Our Colonies where We have thought proper to allow Settlement; but that if, at any Time, any of the said Indians should be inclined to dispose of the said Lands, that same shall be purchased only for Us, in Our Name, at some publick Meeting or Assembly of the said Indians to be held for that Purpose by the Governor or Commander in Chief of Our Colonies respectively, within which they shall lie"

According to the Supreme Court of Canada, unceded Indigenous territory in Canada  can be legally recognized as 'Aboriginal Title'. (See esp. Delgamuuk 1997 re Wet'suet'en land, and T'silqotin 2017). Aboriginal Title is outright ownership, and includes (underground)  minerals and also waters incl river/lake beds. Thus, it is stronger and more inclusive ownership than our land deeds.

In Delgamuuk 1997, Wet'suet'en territory was recognized as unceded land, and the court recommended that the BC government (that administers 'Crown'  Land) proceed with recognition of Aboriginal Title. 11 years later, they are still 'talking' about it ... while the RCMP is ordered, by a business-friendly temporary injunction of the local low court of BC with no Indigenous input, to escort and protect a pipeline company in forcing a pipeline through Wet'suet'en territory.  

It is significant that by the Royal Proclamation, decisions about unceded Indigenous land cannot be signed off on by any Indigenous leader(s) alone, but must have public consensus agreement of all people of the Indigenous Nation. That was not done.

As such, the current sign-offs by (forcibly imposed) Band Councils DO NOT QUALIFY AS CONSENT, but have not yet been adjudicated by the Supreme Court of Canada. Pipeline work continues under the temporary injunction, a permanent injunction hearing will be held in the spring with Indigenous input, and can be appealed to the Court of Appeal and then to the Supreme Court.

Edited February 26, 2019 by jacee

[Zeitgeist]

10 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Not actually true.   Canada is not a republic,  Soldiers of the crown report to the Queen.  In the event of war measures, constitutional rights are suspended as necessary.

Welcome to the monarchy.

You’re just wrong.  There’s zero reporting to the Queen.  Where do you get this stuff?

She is our pageantry and tradition, but has no political influence.  The Governor General plays the role in Canada of the Queen in the UK, and yes, the systems are a bit different.  No House of Lords for example.  Just about every country has its version of the War Measures Act,  which is martial law temporarily invoked in times of crisis.  

Edited February 26, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re just wrong.  There’s zero reporting to the Queen.  Where do you get this stuff?

She is our pageantry and tradition, but has no political influence.  The Governor General plays the role in Canada of the Queen in the UK, and yes, the systems are a bit different.  No House of Lords for example.  Just about every country has its version of the War Measures Act,  which is martial law temporarily invoked in times of crisis.  

The Viceroy has no authority but the Queen's, the Viceroy is not the Queen, the Queen is the Commander-in-Chief, the Queen is the country, the rest are nobodies.

[jacee]

13 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re just wrong.  There’s zero reporting to the Queen.  Where do you get this stuff?

Here:

"I ......... (full name), do swear (or for a solemn affirmation, "solemnly affirm") that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her heirs and successors according to law."

In Canada, the Governor-General represents the Queen, and is nominally the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces. Politicians/government cannot order military action against people of Canada. The order must come from the CinC - Governor General - and it can be appealed to the Queen. It's one of the checks and balances in our system that protects us from partisan politicians running amok and (eg) attacking people of their political opposition.

Edited February 26, 2019 by jacee

[Dougie93]

It does work by the way, the Queen's authority to override the civilians, I've used it, obviously it causes a ruckus with the chain command, none the less, when you say "unlawful order, I must respectfully decline", that gets their attention.

[jacee]

10 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

In the case of Oka however, it was in fact the Mohawks who invoked the British Crown, it was in fact the SQ who were imperiling its rule.

But this is exactly why Prime Minister Mulroney removed the SQ from the equation, and put the Canadian Army in charge.

At which point the situation was stabilized and resolved peacefully henceforth.

Professional soldiers are more professional than cops, who knew?

Pffft!! See my post about Waneek Horn being stabbed by a Canadian soldier.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, jacee said:

Pffft!! See my post about Waneek Horn being stabbed by a Canadian soldier.

I am not aware of it.   Which soldier stabbed her? There's no record of it that I can find.

[jacee]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

It does work by the way, the Queen's authority to override the civilians, I've used it, obviously it causes a ruckus with the chain command, none the less, when you say "unlawful order, I must respectfully decline", that gets their attention.

You're RCMP? 

Nominally, you have the responsibility to decline unlawful orders.

But I'll bet you get bounced for it. Lol 

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, jacee said:

You're RCMP? 

Nominally, you have the responsibility to decline unlawful orders.

But I'll bet you get bounced for it. Lol 

No.  I was Army.  But we were not automatons.   We operated under mission command.   The time I was forced to decline an unlawful order, the system worked, my Regimental Sergeant Major backed me up once he looked into it.  I was not charged, nor sanctioned in anyway.  In fact I was promoted soon after.

 

[jacee]

11 hours ago, jacee said:

Dougie93: link below, and there are other accounts online too.

And later a 14 year old Mohawk girl holding her young sister got a soldier's  bayonet in her chest near her heart. She went on to be an Olympic champion ... for Canada.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/waneek-horn-miller

And of course, you will not find an 'official' account, an apology, nothing! 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by jacee

[jacee]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

No.  I was Army.  But we were not automatons.   We operated under mission command.   The time I was forced to decline an unlawful order, the system worked, my Regimental Sergeant Major backed me up once he looked into it.  I was not charged, nor sanctioned in anyway.  In fact I was promoted soon after.

 

You lucked out. LOL 

Where is it written that a CAF soldier must decline unlawful orders?

Edited February 26, 2019 by jacee

[Dougie93]

Until I am provided with some evidence as to who exactly stabbed what, where, when, why, and how, it is mere propaganda by default.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, jacee said:

You lucked out. LOL 

Where is it written that a CAF soldier must decline unlawful orders?

The Queen's Regulations & Orders.  QR&O's Volume I, Chapter 19

[Dougie93]

The more they train you, the more elite you become, the more you know your shit, to include your own authority and the law, at which point, it's not about "luck", it just about being more professional, and then invoking the Commander-in-Chief's authority, from Buckingham Palace itself.  Then they have to stop and check.  You'd just better be right about it.

But that's everything in the infantry, the infantry is all about assuming risk to defend principles, unto death as necessary, never mind being charged under the QR&O's

Edited February 26, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

As a troop, you also need to be aware of the consequences of failing to decline unlawful orders and/or enforce the law and standing orders yourself.

Clayton Matchee outranked Kyle Brown.  Clayton Matchee was beating a prisoner to death in contravention of national and international law and the laws of armed conflict.

Brown didn't stop him.

That was a mistake for which Brown went to military detention barracks first, then the penitentiary after.

Edmonton DB followed by the Edmonton Max, is arguably the hardest time you could ever do in Canada.

My advice, don't be intimidated by bullies like Matchee, do your duty, invoke the Queen, and shoot him if you have to.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

Zeitgeist is not quite correct.

"Unceded" territory means it is Indigenous land: It was Indigenous territory at contact, and it was never ceded to the Crown via treaty, etc.

The Royal Proclamation of 1763 lays out these laws:

"any other Lands, which, not having been ceded to, or purchased by Us, are still reserved to the said Indians "

 

 

Thank you for this explanation.

Although protests by native bands also occur for encroachment on reserve land,  one would think that the strongest case for sovereign control and decision can be made for land that was never controlled by the Crown via treaty in the first place, and certainly not by provincial/local suits.

 

[jacee]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

Until I am provided with some evidence as to who exactly stabbed what, where, when, why, and how, it is mere propaganda by default.

Of course  a victims' report doesn't matter to you. No investigation, no official report, no investigation, no inquest ... lies lies lies. Check the hospital records, etc. Lots of ways to learn the truth ... IF the CAF wanted to find the truth, but they don't.

Waneek is a public figure, as a former Olympian and an activist. She speaks about it openly. The CAF has never called her a liar, sued her for defamation, conducted an investigation, etc. Just silence. 

You're an idiot if you believe what you wrote. Go look for the evidence yourself. Get the CAF to investigate the truth of her accounts. At this point, it appears that they don't have the balls, or the morals. And you obviously are not interesred in the truth, can't even be bothered googling! 

See report and photo here:

https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2015/07/10/pan-ams-waneek-horn-miller-an-oka-crisis-survivor.html

Edited February 26, 2019 by jacee

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, jacee said:

Of course. A victims' report doesn't matter to you. No investigation, no official report, no investigation, no inquest ... lies lies lies. Check the hospital records, etc. Lots of ways to learn the truth ... IF the CAF wanted to find the truth, but they don't.

Waneek is a public figure, as a former Olympian and an activist. She speaks about it openly. The CAF has never called her a liar, sued her for defamation, etc. Just silence. 

You're an idiot if you believe what you wrote. Go look for the evidence yourself.

I operate by the rule of law.  Without evidence, is a false accusation by default. 

Moreover, without knowing the circumstances, I cannot infer malice, could have been an accident for all I know.

An idiot would be one who jumped to conclusions at the first accusation of a co-belligerent party,  without gathering the facts

[Dougie93]

Not to mention, it was a NATO Brigade Group, someone getting a little bit poked by a bayonet, but otherwise going on with their life, is hardly an unrestrained application of military force.

[Zeitgeist]

22 minutes ago, jacee said:

Zeitgeist is not quite correct.

"Unceded" territory means it is Indigenous land: It was Indigenous territory at contact, and it was never ceded to the Crown via treaty, etc.

The Royal Proclamation of 1763 lays out these laws:

"any other Lands, which, not having been ceded to, or purchased by Us, are still reserved to the said Indians "

"We do, with the Advice of Our Privy Council, strictly enjoin and require, that no private Person do presume to make any Purchase from the said Indians of any Lands reserved to the said Indians, within those Parts of Our Colonies where We have thought proper to allow Settlement; but that if, at any Time, any of the said Indians should be inclined to dispose of the said Lands, that same shall be purchased only for Us, in Our Name, at some publick Meeting or Assembly of the said Indians to be held for that Purpose by the Governor or Commander in Chief of Our Colonies respectively, within which they shall lie"

According to the Supreme Court of Canada, unceded Indigenous territory in Canada  can be legally recognized as 'Aboriginal Title'. (See esp. Delgamuuk 1997 re Wet'suet'en land, and T'silqotin 2017). Aboriginal Title is outright ownership, and includes (underground)  minerals and also waters incl river/lake beds. Thus, it is stronger and more inclusive ownership than our land deeds.

In Delgamuuk 1997, Wet'suet'en territory was recognized as unceded land, and the court recommended that the BC government (that administers 'Crown'  Land) proceed with recognition of Aboriginal Title. 11 years later, they are still 'talking' about it ... while the RCMP is ordered by the low court of BC to escort and protect a pipeline company in forcing a pipeline through Wet'suet'en territory.  

For that to happen there would have to be an aboriginal group or number of groups occupying this territory exclusively of other groups for an extended period of time.  It’s not as simple as, we live here and therefore get title.  If there are other people living there after the request for title comes forward, it’s not exclusively settled.  What’s more, we’re only talking title here.  There’s no purchase as no one is buying land on someone else’s property.  

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

The Viceroy has no authority but the Queen's, the Viceroy is not the Queen, the Queen is the Commander-in-Chief, the Queen is the country, the rest are nobodies.

The viceroy is more like a governor than a Queen.  A monarch’s representative with governmental duties.  No viceroy in Canada.  

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The viceroy is more like a governor than a Queen.  A monarch’s representative with governmental duties.  No viceroy in Canada.  

Governor-General is simply another term for Viceroy, but the office of the Viceroy, is entirely ceremonial, Julie Payette is not the constitutional monarch, she's just a seat warmer while the Queen is away,

[bush_cheney2004]

15 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

For that to happen there would have to be an aboriginal group or number of groups occupying this territory exclusively of other groups for an extended period of time.  It’s not as simple as, we live here and therefore get title.  If there are other people living there after the request for title comes forward, it’s not exclusively settled.  What’s more, we’re only talking title here.  There’s no purchase as no one is buying land on someone else’s property.  

 

Ahem...we call that "occupied territory"....as in illegal possession / squatting.

But my take on all of this as an outsider is that BC and the federal government prefers this squishy Twilight Zone status for unceded "aboriginal" land, with the courts continuing the game forever.

[Dougie93]

38 minutes ago, jacee said:

Of course  a victims' report doesn't matter to you. No investigation, no official report, no investigation, no inquest ... lies lies lies. Check the hospital records, etc. Lots of ways to learn the truth ... IF the CAF wanted to find the truth, but they don't.

Don't mistake me for a White Guilt Liberal, my duty to the Mohawks is simply a duty to the Queen, but otherwise, my heart does not bleed for them, I am a warrior, they are warriors, should we come head to head on the battlefield, don't cry to me of bayonets, shit happens when you take things there.

I'm a North German Protestant, we are the fiercest warriors in the history of the world, if you cross us, and live to tell the tale, consider yourself lucky therein.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Dougie93