Indigenous blockade in BC & related protests

[Dougie93]

But the judiciary ruled that the Quebec government was entirely in the wrong and the Mohawks were entirely within their rights, and as a result released them once it got to court.

Thus I don't see a mandate for CSOR nor any CANSOF barring a hostage taking of some sort, which is not the Mohawks m.o.

[Army Guy]

Yes they did but only well after the incident had played out, remember this thing went on for over a couple of months, and the PM did authorize force if required, hence the Airborne, and all the intimidation tactics, fast air, helos, tanks ripping up and down the roads... 

I'm glad it ended the way it did, had there been gun play, there would have been lots of casualties on the mohawk side...an Airmobile plus mech thrust would have chewed them up....there would still be unrest today....Back in the day the CAR was todays equivalent of CSOAR, besides I think having the Airborne there was over kill, why use a hammer when you could have used a surgical strike...As for mandate, everything was green lite right up to the big guy...

[Dougie93]

12 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

lets not forget, they also had a few M113, M109 SPG, Leo tanks , Helos, some Airborne, and some fast air to intimidate them.

I think CSOAR would have these guys for lunch....Regardless of what wpns they had when that leo with the dozer blade went through that road block across the road that was the sound of the end... after that all you could hear was the sound of people running through the woods..Thats not the sounds of professionals but people scared shitless...

But why do you want to intimidate and terrorize people on behalf of the Quebec government which was behaving like thugs, by the rendered judgement of their own court?

Why are you so gung-ho to kill people just for bearing arms on their own land in defence of their rights?

[Army Guy]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

But why do you want to intimidate and terrorize people on behalf of the Quebec government which was behaving like thugs, by the rendered judgement of their own court?

Why are you so gung-ho to kill people just for bearing arms on their own land in defence of their rights?

Because a QPP Officer was killed in their botched raid....and mr Crietien had to be the man, and save face...Nobody was gung ho, everyone knew what is meant to be there, but also everyone knew what the consequence's were going to be if it went bad...

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Army Guy said:

Yes they did but only well after the incident had played out, remember this thing went on for over a couple of months, and the PM did authorize force if required, hence the Airborne, and all the intimidation tactics, fast air, helos, tanks ripping up and down the roads... 

I'm glad it ended the way it did, had there been gun play, there would have been lots of casualties on the mohawk side...an Airmobile plus mech thrust would have chewed them up....there would still be unrest today....Back in the day the CAR was todays equivalent of CSOAR, besides I think having the Airborne there was over kill, why use a hammer when you could have used a surgical strike...As for mandate, everything was green lite right up to the big guy...

CSOR.  Canadian Special Operations Regiment.  There is no "A" in CSOR far as I know.

And I'm not disputing that Canada has the military capacity to annihilate the Mohawks as necessary, merely pointing out national and international law and the laws of armed conflict,  which preclude that by multiple statutes, from baseline lack of military necessity, collateral mitigation and proportionality, to overrunning their Article 51 rights, which is War Crime; Aggressive War, to liquidating any who pick up an arm (what Argus said which you are agreeing to) which is Crime Against Humanity; Genocidal War, 

[Dougie93]

23 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Because a QPP Officer was killed in their botched raid...

When de facto corrupt cops executing a de jure criminal action come to kick down your door and take your property at gun point,  I will allow for right to self defence. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Dougie93

[Army Guy]

My bad CSOR it is, 

This is not the first time the Military has been used again'st the Canadian people, going way back to the riel uprising, many times during the conscription crises during WWI, so their was a precedence, First the Quebec courts had ruled against the Mohawks, the province ordered the QPP in to open up the road blocks, and one officer was killed,  the province ask for and received military assistance to contain the area....as it dragged on with no end in site the feds ordered DND in, the airborne came in through the back, and a small mech force came in the front door...Now for the legality of it all not sure, but some how mr Cretien did not or has not served any time, or face the courts...

I doubt very much that DND would kill on site any one armed, and not a threat, you know how that works, ....That being said, when the government gave the order for the road blocks to be removed and certain individuals arrested, it would have only taken one shot from their side to release the hounds so to speak, DND would have responded in kind, but it would have been over whelming force...remember the entire area was smoked out...nobody could see shit, except though thermal, once the smoke started to dissipate, the airborne were already outside of their HQ/ mess hall. So there was great potential for mass casualties, or things to get way out of control. I think it was professionalism on DND part, and the fact the mohawks were scared shitless..

[Dougie93]

I'm not saying that the Crown may not summon the military in aid to the civil power in the face of apprehended insurrection by order in council, none the less, national and international law and the laws of armed conflict still apply, in fact, doubly apply when using forces against the subjects of your own Crown.

 

[Army Guy]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

When de facto corrupt cops executing a de jure criminal action coming to kick down your door and take your property at gun point,  I will allow for right to self defence. 

Not sure if they were corrupt or not, but they have a mandate as well , given to them by provincial and federal laws. RCMP have been making arrest on Indian land for many years now..this is not new...Anyways resisting or defending yourself is a good way to suicide by cop...Don't hate the players hate the game....Cops, Military all want to go home to the wife and kids to....so when it comes down to you or them, 

[Dougie93]

De facto corrupt, because the earliest opportunity to avoid a crisis was simply at national law; theft.  

The Quebec government was engaged in theft. 

The SQ was bound by oath to inform them that they may not take peoples property at gunpoint, period, full stop. 

Which the courts upheld post facto.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Dougie93

[Army Guy]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

I'm not saying that the Crown may not summon the military in aid to the civil power in the face of apprehended insurrection by order in council, none the less, national and international law and the laws of armed conflict still apply, in fact, doubly apply when using forces against the subjects of your own Crown.

 

A lot if things have changed since then, when we went to BC to provide protection for the Olympics, we were not to have our 25 mm guns  mounted, our LAVS could be used only to transport RCMP officers, NO LMG's or GPMGs , M203 were brought,  to offensive, we did have C-7 and 9 mm  and were warned if we had to fire not on full auto, one aim shot per target, unless they were still a threat....no double tapping...infact while working inside the venues, no uniforms at all, only uniforms while on patrols in the back 40, and even then we had to have RCMP at all times because we did not have powers of arrest. So things are much different today...mind you we have not had another OKA, so who knows.

[Dougie93]

Yes, I am aware of the CONOPS, but I don't want the RCMP kicking the Mohawks door down in the first place so that the Army would have to bail them out, because the Army is going to get blamed, and rest assured, the international liberal media will be pummeling Canada as if it is Saudi Arabia if/when we go to war with the Indians.

The Americans will also pounce too.

[Army Guy]

5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

De facto corrupt, because the earliest opportunity to avoid a crisis was simply at national law; theft.  

The Quebec government was engaged in theft. 

The SQ was bound by oath to inform them that they may not take peoples property at gunpoint, period, full stop. 

Which the courts upheld post facto.

I get your point, for the natives they were right and the feds were wrong, did not stop them from getting forced to the ground, searched and zap strapped until the area was secured...did not stop the feds playing this out for months....like someone said can't fight city hall.

I think the natives already knew what you can do or can not do with a firearm...at that point in time I don't think the natives really cared ,the fact they killed an police officer is proof of that....once it got to this point, I don't think it could have been stopped...

 

[Dougie93]

I do not want nor accept as legitimate the Quebec government coming to take my land at gun point resulting in me being taken prisoner on my own property by armed agents of the state.

No, I won't likely pick up an AK-47, but I will be suing for the $10.5 million that Omar Kadr got.

[Army Guy]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Yes, I am aware of the CONOPS, but I don't want the RCMP kicking the Mohawks door down in the first place so that the Army would have to bail them out, because the Army is going to get blamed, and rest assured, the international liberal media will be pummeling Canada as if it is Saudi Arabia if/when we go to war with the Indians.

The Americans will also pounce too.

While the mohawks are Canada's first people that does not make them above the law, when they arm themselves and break the law , bad stuff happens.... the men and women enforcing that law are always going to take the blame...thats a fact, it's a shitty job but someone has to do it....

[Army Guy]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I do not want nor accept as legitimate the Quebec government coming to take my land at gun point resulting in me being taken prisoner on my own property by armed agents of the state.

No, I won't likely pick up an AK-47, but I will be suing for the $10.5 million that Omar Kadr got.

Omar got ripped off , he did'nt get the poetry lessons, or the arts classes...

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

While the mohawks are Canada's first people that does not make them above the law, when they arm themselves and break the law , bad stuff happens.... the men and women enforcing that law are always going to take the blame...thats a fact, it's a shitty job but someone has to do it....

Canadian law said that they were within their rights considering what they were being confronted with, by rendered judgement of the Canadian judiciary, the Quebec government were the criminal thugs engaged in robbery and the Mohawks were backs against the wall invoking the Charter in the face of tyranny.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Omar got ripped off , he did'nt get the poetry lessons, or the arts classes...

I could turn $10.5 million into $105 million in pretty short order, once you have that kind of cheese to play with,  you can go big time, the bigger the stake, the bigger the reward.

Takes money to make money and ten point five sheets is go time.

[Army Guy]

I don't buy that....they may have been right  according to the law.....OKA could have gone the other way as well, shots fired, lots of casualties, so yes they be right , but they would be dead as well...It should have all played out in the courts, not on some golf course....

[Dougie93]

Except they played it cool, and so did 5e Brigade, the only problem was Quebec City and the SQ, once it was taken out of the hands of the thugs kicking peoples doors down to take their property at gun point, the situation deescalated, albeit it took all summer.

[Dougie93]

The Oka Crisis is a perfect example of why the Americans have the second amendment and prize it,  gun grabbers are always declaiming it "cause you can't fight city hall" but in fact you can, sometimes you need to effect an armed blockade until such time as the courts can catch up to whats going on.  Much easier to defend your property and beg forgiveness after, than it is to beg to get your property back once taken, possession being nine tenths of the law.

And make no mistake, if/when Canada starts gunning Indians down to take their land, the Big Dog down south is going to say "British Crown Tyrannical Government!" bet dat.

If it spiraled up the escalatory ladder quite sure they will invoke the Continental Defense and Security Agreement and take control from NORTHCOM, Ottawa sent to the kiddie table until the Americans sorted it out.

Because of course, any war with the Indians up here is going to cause the indians down there to get involved, at which point Washington is going to decapitate Canada for all intents and purposes to keep the continental peace.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

.OKA could have gone the other way as well, shots fired, lots of casualties

I don't even think it would be a CSOR tasking, CSOR is expeditionary focused, Special Reconnaissance  Direct Action/ Special Forces Unconventional Warfare.

CSOR is like Ranger/Green Beret.

Apprehended insurrection is counterrevolutionary, which is JTF2,  being Canada's CT-JTF, which is like Delta/Devgru

All of the JSOC taskings in Canada; Special Mission Unit; are encompassed within the  National Mission Force role, which goes to Dwyer Hill not Pet.

In fact, quite sure that Minister Fowler and General De Chastelain were including Oka in the Canadian CT-JTF CONOPS back in 92'

The Airborne was replaced in this role, but not by CSOR, the SOA course is what covers dealing with delicate situations like Oka.

In reality, CSOR is a completely new capability, the airborne tasking was basically just downgraded back to where it was before 68', which was regimental para coys

In the event of Oka 2.0, I would expect the Immediate Reaction Task Force,  CSOR kept in reserve for Standing Contingencies otherwise.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Dougie93

[jacee]

On 1/27/2019 at 7:23 PM, Army Guy said:

What a load of horse crap jacee, Canadian government has been dealing with native Americans for centuries now, and everything was fine until all the payments were handed out , pipe line companies had all the checks in the boxes, and boom another check is needed.......and wait one minute we forgot about old joe and his cousin marry, the witch doctor, tribal dentist/ doctor/dog breeder he has a say as well........How many layers does it take to get a pipeline built, everyone's pockets must not be filled by now.... What should be happening right now, going back and collecting all that money they paid out, and tell them when you grow up we will come back....Environment my ass this is all about money... the man with the suit case full of money needs to pack up and head some where else....and when fuel for their vehs reaches 3 bucks a liter.....I bet they sing a new tune.... 

As you said about OKA, it should all play out in courts of law, not in conflict with police (or military). Unfortunately, our governments evade the rule of law and create conflicts that should not happen. The point I was making about the rule of law is this: When Canada forced 'elected' Band Councils on Indigenous Peoples in the 1920's and confined them to 'reserve' lands, Canada made law (in the Indian Act) that confined the powers of elected Band Councils to the 'reserve' lands.

BUT ... the proposed TC/CGL pipeline does not go through 'reserve' lands. It goes through the much larger traditional Wet'suet'en territories, never ceded to the Crown and still under the authority of the Traditional Chiefs Council.

The 'elected' Band Councils do not have jurisdiction on the pipeline route, and the BC government was wrong ... in law ... in telling TC/CGL to negotiate agreements only with the Band Councils, while the Federal government remained duplicit and silent.

Because of government greed, we AGAIN have conflict, where we should have had rule of law. We AGAIN have officers trying to defend illegal government actions instead of courts upholding Constitutional law, including Aboriginal rights. Canadian governments have used and abused police (and military) this way forever. In my opinion, it is time for police - RCMP in this case - to push back, to require decision from the highest court, the Supreme Court, BEFORE initiating conflict against Indigenous Peoples.

I certainly agree that TC/CGL should pack up and head somewhere else. Problem solved. 

PS: A pipeline for shipping fracked natural gas overseas FOR PRIVATE PROFIT has absolutely nothing to do with the domestic price of oil&gasoline for your car. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by jacee

[Dougie93]

The Mohawks won at Oka.  

"the right to keep and bear arms in defence of resistance and self preservation within the allowance of the law." in accordance with the Bill of Rights 1689.

Mission accomplished. Affirmed by the judiciary. Extremism in the defence of liberty, no vice, and no crime neither.

You do indeed have to be men and women of iron to hold a NATO Brigade at bay with only fifty warriors, but that's the Mohawks.

That's how they saved Canada at the Heights of Queenston, in the face of 30,000 American troops.

This Domestic Self Governing Federation of the British Empire is in fact modeled on the Iroquois Six Nations Confederacy, and the Iroquois were the tip of the spear of the British Crown, from the beginning.

God save the Queen and her Mohawk warriors, same as it ever was.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[jacee]

On 1/27/2019 at 8:55 PM, Army Guy said:

I get your point, for the natives they were right and the feds were wrong, did not stop them from getting forced to the ground, searched and zap strapped until the area was secured...did not stop the feds playing this out for months....like someone said can't fight city hall.

I think the natives already knew what you can do or can not do with a firearm...at that point in time I don't think the natives really cared ,the fact they killed an police officer is proof of that....once it got to this point, I don't think it could have been stopped...

 

It was never established that the Mohawks killed the officer at OKA. 

The backstory was that he was SIU, about to blow the whistle on some corrupt cops, strangely ordered to suit up that day and then shot from behind. 

Your obsession with firearms is not warranted. Firearms have not been used by Indigenous people in political action since then, as they know that will just get them killed. Dudley George got killed at Ipperwash  because a cop wanted to pretend that a walking stick was a rifle. 

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by jacee