Yzermandius19 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Trump’s economic nationalism hasn’t worked. Tariffs have added costs to domestic producers and consumers. Just look at auto production where steel and aluminum tariffs have added a billion dollars in expenses to GM, leading to major plant closures. If you want fair and balanced free trade, we need better and stronger international rules. Same goes for fighting climate change and improving human development as a whole world wide. Trump has turned his back on international institutions and rules. While a strong central government that controls the economy like a totalitarian communist state of the past would never and should never be supported in America, there’s much to learn from the most successfully run “socialist” countries in Scandinavia. Trump's economic nationalism does work when the other side caves and negotiates a deal to lower tariffs on the US. In the meantime, it doesn't work, and backfires on the US, but the US is better able to weather any trade war they start than anyone they could start a trade war with, and thus Trump is using tariffs as an outrageous opening offer and it's getting people to the negotiating table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 (edited) Other than the most dingbat Democrats, Americans know that Scandinavia cannot be duplicated by a big, rambunctious, non homogeneous raucous and free demcoracy like America. Americans would never get those types of services from the government, so they prefer the private sector to deliver service. Despite Canada being a nanny state, Canadians don't get Scandinavian style services neither, Canadians just cling to their hallway healthcare as Doug Ford calls it, because Canadians have been raised to be Eskimo Communists by the CBC state propaganda arm. Which is why if you are really sick, you're better off having the capital to fly to Switzerland to get your care, than you are to rely on sad and failing OHIP Medical device manufacturers actually have two tiers of product, the very high end stuff for the Americans and the Swiss, and then the low quality communist models for places like Canada. Edited February 23, 2019 by Dougie93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: Trump's economic nationalism does work when the other side caves and negotiates a deal to lower tariffs on the US. In the meantime, it doesn't work, and backfires on the US, but the US is better able to weather any trade war they start than anyone they could start a trade war with, and thus Trump is using tariffs as an outrageous opening offer and it's getting people to the negotiating table. No doubt Trump is a Mercantilist bully, but the counter tariffs on the US are hurting Americans. You see this very clearly in agriculture, which is being propped up by 7 billion dollars in “nanny socialist” subsidies. The 2008 recession demonstrated that the US government will step in and take over from private capital when necessary. Remember Lehman Brothers and the consolidation of the financial services sector under Morgan Stanley/Chase? The US economy is right now being fueled into overdrive by debt, which is being increased to pay for massive tax cuts largely benefiting the rich. It’s unprecedented to have large economic growth and rising debt simultaneously. It’s irresponsible. Edited February 23, 2019 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: Other than the most dingbat Democrats, Americans know that Scandinavia cannot be duplicated by a big, rambunctious, non homogeneous raucous and free demcoracy like America. Americans would never get those types of services from the government, so they prefer the private sector to deliver service. Despite Canada being a nanny state, Canadians don't get Scandinavian style services neither, Canadians just cling to their hallway healthcare as Doug Ford calls it, because Canadians have been raised to be Eskimo Communists by the CBC state propaganda arm. Which is why if you are really sick, you're better off having the capital to fly to Switzerland to get your care, than you are to rely on sad and failing OHIP Wrong. Health outcomes are good in Canada especially for serious illnesses. We pay much less of our GDP on healthcare than the US. Mainstream America has figured this out. It’s about buying power through economy of scale and eliminating the for profit HMO bureaucracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Wrong. Health outcomes are good in Canada especially for serious illnesses. We pay much less of our GDP on healthcare than the US. Mainstream America has figured this out. It’s about buying power through economy of scale and eliminating the for profit HMO bureaucracy. I only care about my outcomes, and I have no interest in waiting in line or lying in a gurney in a hallway, so I go to the free market. America is good, Switzerland is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Dougie93 said: Methinks the Americans will not be subsidizing the Canadian nanny socialist welfare gulag anymore neither. It's not just Big Daddy Trump President of Canada, because the Democrats are protectionist too. There is no Canada Go Ahead And Be A Free Rider Which Is Also Protectionist We Will Still Prop You Up party in America anymore. Propping the Canadian Eskimo Communist Fairyland up, was a Cold War legacy project. Without the Iron Curtain, it no longer serves any purpose. Meanwhile, the American Information Age Revolution is upon the industrial workers of America, so the priority is to prop them up now. America can't afford to just hand industrial work to Canada, particularly when America is picking up the tab for all national security to include Canada's. There's plenty of Information work going around, neither country needs to prop that up, but the industrial work is going away. America doesn't have enough industrial work surplus to provide for both American workers and Canadian Eskimo Communists too. Canadians think its business as usual if they can just get rid of Trump somehow. But they will be in for a rude awakening, because the Democrats can't ship jobs to Canada neither, whenever they get back into power. Capital only comes to Canada as an arbitrage play with the American Flight to Quality market. Eskimo Communists are under the delusion that somehow capital is willing to invest in Eskimo Communism if America is not propping it up. As it becomes clear that America is increasingly hardening and thickening the border, capital will move to be on the right side of that. Which obviously is not the confiscatory Canadian nanny socialist fake jobs welfare gulag side. In order to prop the unions up, Canada basically kills investment in the private sector. This will be increasingly untenable as capital flees Canada. Then the two economies will decouple, Canada will go into recessions while America does not, for the first time since World War Two. Then Canada will not be able to bribe Quebec to stay in Confederation anymore, at which point; Vive le Quebec, vive le Quebec libre rises again. The MSM asserts that Big Daddy Trump is the one who is breaking down the Postwar Liberal Order, but that is not the case. The Information Age is simply displacing the Industrial Age, and the Postwar Liberal Order is industrial, so that is what is breaking it down. Roger Stone and his protege Donald Trump simply recognized that it was already falling apart, and they could ride that wave, if they simply spoke the truth of it. Bottom line, in this new order, which is not going away, only America can afford to prop her unions up, if Canada tries to mimic that, it will break Canada. Right now, Canada is in the denial phase, harboring the delusion that there are other economies which are interested in propping Canada up. Maybe China? Maybe Europe? Maybe a combination of China and Europe? Canada will however find that no economy is interested in propping protectionist Canada up so Canada can run a nanny socialist welfare gulag. Sad and failing as it is, this is what happens when you let socialists run your country, someday you have to pay the piper, and then it gets ugly. You make it sound as though the US government is giving Canada something. In reality we import from the US as much as or more than we export to the US. Companies set up shop in Canada because of the highly skilled and educated workforce, low benefit costs due to universal healthcare, and the strong market for the goods companies produce. Most of these companies are international and publicly owned and traded. They aren’t owned or controlled by the US or any other government. You can’t have it both ways. If the US wants to treat Canada as a domestic market for its goods and pay the same price and have the same access to Canada’s energy that Canadians have, then Canadians should have the same access to the American market. This was the case under NAFTA and is the case under USMCA. The big positive advancement in USMCA was putting a floor on low wages, such that at least 40 percent of auto jobs in Mexico must pay at least $16.00/hour. This is a Canadian contribution to the deal. If we had more such rules on an international scale, you’d see the standard of living rise in poorer countries, less offshoring of jobs to low cost jurisdictions, and more export markets for goods produced in developed countries, because people in developing countries could actually afford to buy them. Edited February 23, 2019 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 True...a majority of Americans would not tolerate the wait time rationing for health care as seen in Canada. Health care is not a right, and private pay will always survive in some form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 America is a global Hegemon with a twenty trillion dollar GDP which the entire world seeks access to, so America can have it both ways. America can dump product into Canada while denying Canadian product access, quite easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: True...a majority of Americans would not tolerate the wait time rationing for health care as seen in Canada. Health care is not a right, and private pay will always survive in some form. There is a wait time for non-serious illnesses as assessed in triage, and yes, there are private clinics in Canada too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: True...a majority of Americans would not tolerate the wait time rationing for health care as seen in Canada. Health care is not a right, and private pay will always survive in some form. The Swiss have the best system, the private healthcare is bound by Swiss law to provide basic healthcare for all, in return profit is permitted for those who wish to pay more and have the means, thus the rich pay for the poor in Switzerland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: America is a global Hegemon with a twenty trillion dollar GDP which the entire world seeks access to, so America can have it both ways. America can dump product into Canada while denying Canadian product access, quite easily. Well Trump is taking as much advantage as he can economically by playing the economic hegemon card. The result? Counter tariffs, bad foreign relations, and possibly the rise of the populist left in Sanders and AOC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Well Trump is taking as much advantage as he can economically by playing the economic hegemon card. The result? Counter tariffs, bad foreign relations, and possibly the rise of the populist left in Sanders and AOC. Happened long before Trump. The U.S has better "foreign relations" than Canada right now under Trudeau. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 The Americans are not worried about retaliation of pygmies, the retaliation of nothing burgers like Canada is insignificant to King Dollar, Canadian tariffs are just a tax on Canadians,the Americans don't care, nor even notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 Canada can never win a trade war with the United States. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: The Americans are not worried about retaliation of pygmies, the retaliation of nothing burgers like Canada is insignificant to King Dollar, Canadian tariffs are just a tax on Canadians,the Americans don't care, nor even notice. America can afford to take the hit that comes with tariffs, retaliating pygmies, not so much. Hence Trump's penchant for using them as an outrageous opening offer, to eventually get the pygmies who can't afford to tariff American products to lower their tariffs against the US in the long run. Usually the strategy just backfires, but Trump has actually been getting some results from using this strategy, much to my surprise. Edited February 23, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: America can afford to take the hit that comes with tariffs, retaliating pygmies, not so much. Hence Trump's penchant for using them as an outrageous opening offer, to eventually get the pygmies who can't afford to tariff American products to lower their tariffs against the US in the long run. Usually the strategy just backfires, but Trump has actually been getting some results from using this strategy, much to my surprise. Indeed. Canadian self taxing tariffs drive inflation, that becomes stagflation in an non competitive nanny socialist welfare gulag, ultimate inciting said gulag to bring itself down. All attempts to wage war against America, end up in the dustbin of history with the Soviets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: America can afford to take the hit that comes with tariffs, retaliating pygmies, not so much. Hence Trump's penchant for using them as an outrageous opening offer, to eventually get the pygmies who can't afford to tariff American products to lower their tariffs against the US in the long run. Your use of colonialist language demonstrates exactly why the US administration has lost respect internationally, because it’s associated with xenophobia and might is right unfair Mercantilism that may win the short term battle but will lose the war as more progressive regimes seek more advantageous and fair partnerships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 International respect, the Canadian delusion, all that matters is power, international relations are realpolitik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 19 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Canada can never win a trade war with the United States. We never started one. We have merely learned from the one Trump started to diversify our trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 Just now, Dougie93 said: International respect, the Canadian delusion, all that matters is power, international relations are realpolitik. Not in the arena of public opinion where voting happens, or do you think one leader/group should have absolute control and free elections suppressed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: We never started one. We have merely learned from the one Trump started to diversify our trade. Then Trump has done Canada an enormous favour....should never have become so economically dependent on exports to one nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Not in the arena of public opinion where voting happens, or do you think one leader/group should have absolute control and free elections suppressed? Bad time to hold Canada up as a great example given the present government's issues...Trump is doing far better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: Indeed. Canadian self taxing tariffs drive inflation, that becomes stagflation in an non competitive nanny socialist welfare gulag, ultimate inciting said gulag to bring itself down. All attempts to wage war against America, end up in the dustbin of history with the Soviets. What war against America are you talking about? What failed nanny socialist gulag state are you talking about? There’s a large part of the American electorate that would support sensible gun control and similar programs to what we have up here. If Americans develop better ones, then great, we can learn and adapt, as we should always do from international best practices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Not in the arena of public opinion where voting happens, or do you think one leader/group should have absolute control and free elections suppressed? No one respects a virtue signaling pygmy with no real power, sucking up to other nations to feel better about ourselves isn't a substitute for realpolitik. Edited February 23, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2019 Report Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: What war against America are you talking about? What failed nanny socialist gulag state are you talking about? There’s a large part of the American electorate that would support sensible gun control and similar programs to what we have up here. If Americans develop better ones, then great, we can learn and adapt, as we should always do from international best practices. The only thing Americans can learn from Canada is surrender to the nanny state for Eskimo communism. That is a disease...and Trump is the cure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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