bush_cheney2004 Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: This is old ground and you’ve received your responses. It’s about the better climate, and earlier on in your history, the extra freedom that created the economy of scale that you continue to enjoy. The US faces major challenges with violence, socioeconomic disparity, political polarization, and environmental pressures. The US is up there in many rankings, but not all, especially with regard to infant mortality, homicides, even life expectancy and happiness. It’s a great country, but anyone who is well informed sees the shortcomings. On foreign policy it’s one big “Meh” and worse under Trump. It's old ground because it has been that way for over 100 years...and continues to this day. I'll take the good with the bad, and so have far more millions compared to Canada and many other nations. On foreign policy, Trump still matters a lot more than Trudeau. Edited October 22, 2018 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbon882 Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) I fully accepted that there is something wrong in the United States today. It's getting more serious than I thought. The United States had the largest prison population. Kanye West explained his abolish the 13th amendment tweet to be about all the prisoner's working for cheap. It sounds like the Americans are imprisoning people for cheap labor and finding any excuse to do it. possession of weed, hate speech, taking advantage of vulnerable people in court, and false imprisonment by cop cohesion and so on. It is literally legal for a police officer to pin a crime on whoever you want along as if they talk to the police without immunity. I believe there is gonna be civil armed conflict of some sort. The people who are stocking up guns to defend their gun-rights are the ones saying there is gonna be. The Trump administration left the human rights council and are now taking away rights. This transgender stuff was the most recent thing they have done to violate human rights. The polarizing arguments in the United States are far more extreme than the ones in Canada. Mabye those armed militant groups are start harassing and controlling the populace and the government will benefit off the chaos like in Brazil. WAKE UP CANADA! WE CAN'T JOIN THEIR SINKING SHIP! Edited October 22, 2018 by Carbon882 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 On 10/21/2018 at 9:47 PM, bush_cheney2004 said: It's old ground because it has been that way for over 100 years...and continues to this day. I'll take the good with the bad, and so have far more millions compared to Canada and many other nations. On foreign policy, Trump still matters a lot more than Trudeau. Yes, on foreign policy Nazi Germany also mattered more than Canada. You’re talking about impact, not justice. Stop equating power with virtue. Power can be used for good or ill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Yes, on foreign policy Nazi Germany also mattered more than Canada. You’re talking about impact, not justice. Stop equating power with virtue. Power can be used for good or ill. Even Germany today matters more than Canada on foreign policy. Stop confusing virtue with economics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Even Germany today matters more than Canada on foreign policy. Stop confusing virtue with economics. Germany is thre times the size of Canada. Also, are you saying there was no virtue in fighting Nazism? I’d argue that Canada does have moral authority internationally. Trump knows this and tried to use Trudeau for cover, not that Trudeau speaks for all of Canada and not that Trump speaks for all of America. On the other hand, there is greater clarity, consensus, and consistency in the Canadian perspective than the American one. These days Canada represents freedom and human rights to a greater degree than America, which is increasingly perceived as a quasi-authoritarian regime to be feared. Edited October 23, 2018 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 Just now, Zeitgeist said: I’d argue that Canada does have moral authority internationally. Trump knows this and tried to use Trudeau for cover, not that Trudeau speaks for all of Canada and not that Trump speaks for all of America. On the other hand, there is greater clarity, consensus, and consistency in the Canadian perspective than the American one. These days Canada represents freedom and human rights to a greater degree than America, which is increasingly perceived as a quasi-authoritarian regime to be feared. Oh sure...we will just ignore Canada's actions in Haiti/Myanmar/Syria/Iraq, mining companies, arms exports, oil services contracts, First Nations "aboriginals", environmental destruction, climate change failures, security certificate detentions, etc. etc. Canada's "moral authority" is a legend in some Canadian minds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Oh sure...we will just ignore Canada's actions in Haiti/Myanmar/Syria/Iraq, mining companies, arms exports, oil services contracts, First Nations "aboriginals", environmental destruction, climate change failures, security certificate detentions, etc. etc. Canada's "moral authority" is a legend in some Canadian minds. I’ll take our track record over yours, though your power is appreciated when it’s a force for good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: I’ll take our track record over yours, though your power is appreciated when it’s a force for good. You don't have any choice in either regard. More Canadians are heading south right now to the "authoritarian" USA...just as they always have. Far fewer Americans heading north...funny how that works, eh ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: You don't have any choice in either regard. More Canadians are heading south right now to the "authoritarian" USA...just as they always have. Far fewer Americans heading north...funny how that works, eh ? Is that even true anymore? Last I checked it’s a very small net migration. Anyway, you need to make room for the caravan from the south. Good for you to accept these desperate people who could really use some Southern hospitality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Is that even true anymore? Last I checked it’s a very small net migration. Anyway, you need to make room for the caravan from the south. Good for you to accept these desperate people who could really use some Southern hospitality. From the north or from the south...far more people want to go to the "authoritarian" USA than to Canada....have for generations. Did I ever mention that inconvenient truth before ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: From the north or from the south...far more people want to go to the "authoritarian" USA than to Canada....have for generations. Did I ever mention that inconvenient truth before ? You've achieved a great rhetorical fraud: persuasion through oversimplification. You won't get into details or reasons, since doing so undermines your premise. Edited October 23, 2018 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 14 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: You've achieved a great rhetorical fraud: persuasion through oversimplification. You won't get into details or reasons, since doing so undermines your premise. Sorry, but the math of the matter says otherwise. Canadians are streaming to the "authoritarian" United States with a president named Donald Trump, just as they have always done. About 7,000 illegals from Central America are marching to the U.S. southern border by way of Mexico. What do you know that all these other people don't know (or care about) ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Sorry, but the math of the matter says otherwise. Canadians are streaming to the "authoritarian" United States with a president named Donald Trump, just as they have always done. About 7,000 illegals from Central America are marching to the U.S. southern border by way of Mexico. What do you know that all these other people don't know (or care about) ? You've given accurate data on the influx from the south. You need to provide data on net migration from Canada for your other point to stand. I don't think it will, especially given all the migrants fleeing to Canada from the U.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: You've given accurate data on the influx from the south. You need to provide data on net migration from Canada for your other point to stand. I don't think it will, especially given all the migrants fleeing to Canada from the U.S. Google "Canadian snowbird"....then count the snowbirds who cross the border every year...for many, many years. It's already late October....the snowbirds are starting to head south to escape from their country (Canada) for the usual six months. Tell them that America is too "authoritarian"...that they should turn back and freeze their asses off in Canada instead...I think they will laugh and go to Florida or Arizona anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Google "Canadian snowbird"....then count the snowbirds who cross the border every year...for many, many years. It's already late October....the snowbirds are starting to head south to escape from their country (Canada) for the usual six months. Tell them that America is too "authoritarian"...that they should turn back and freeze their asses off in Canada instead...I think they will laugh and go to Florida or Arizona anyway. Well we're on the fence of selling the place in Florida. You're right though. The colder it gets the easier it is overlook Trump's shenanigans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 Just now, Zeitgeist said: Well we're on the fence of selling the place in Florida. You're right though. The colder it gets the easier it is overlook Trump's shenanigans. Seriously ? We are having this debate while you own property in Florida the whole time ? Trump is just another American president....snow and ice in Canada is far more permanent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: Seriously ? We are having this debate while you own property in Florida the whole time ? Trump is just another American president....snow and ice in Canada is far more permanent. I told you I have many connections in the U.S.. My guess is that you have some in Canada... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: I told you I have many connections in the U.S.. My guess is that you have some in Canada... Ummmm...no...I have no connections with Canada other than my state's international border. It is estimated that 10% of Canadians have U.S. citizenship, but the same is not true for Americans in reverse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Ummmm...no...I have no connections with Canada other than my state's international border. It is estimated that 10% of Canadians have U.S. citizenship, but the same is not true for Americans in reverse. I didn't think Americans are allowed to be dual citizens. Many families have relatives on both sides of the border. Why do you take such an interest in Canada? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 Just now, Zeitgeist said: I didn't think Americans are allowed to be dual citizens. Many families have relatives on both sides of the border. Why do you take such an interest in Canada? Lots of Americans have dual citizenship...it is permitted. Why ? Because Canada takes a far greater interest in the United States. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 11 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Lots of Americans have dual citizenship...it is permitted. Why ? Because Canada takes a far greater interest in the United States. We have no bloody choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 16 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: We have no bloody choice. I think you really believe that, true or not. Watching you watching me...but I do have a choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 16 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: I’ll take our track record over yours, though your power is appreciated when it’s a force for good. In a nice world, we only have to make choices about the nicest of things. We can be "a force for good". Meanwhile, some else has to make the hard choices... the ones where no outcome is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted October 24, 2018 Report Share Posted October 24, 2018 5 hours ago, OftenWrong said: In a nice world, we only have to make choices about the nicest of things. We can be "a force for good". Meanwhile, some else has to make the hard choices... the ones where no outcome is good. I do respect that sometimes it's a choice of the lesser of evils. All countries make such choices often. I also appreciate that hindsight is 20/20. And track records are track records. The problem with all the murderous espionage, manipulations of governments, and belligerent public policy is that after while there is no identifiable greater good, no end to justify the corrupt means. All that's left is the shit. All broken eggs and no omelet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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