Should Incest be a crime?

[Argus]

I came across an article in the Washington Post the other day, and it posed the above question. 

Should incest be against the law? And bear in mind we're not speaking about children. Sex with children is against the law regardless of familial ties. We're talking here of consensual adult sex. Should sex between a brother and sister or uncle and niece of parent and child be illegal? 

Right now, the law in Canada calls for up to 14 years in prison, which I think is ridiculous. Where one of the members of the relationship is under 18 it calls for a minimum five years in prison, which I also think is ridiculous. It allows for an 18 year old brother to have consensual sex with a 17 year old sister and get 5 years in prison. Should incest be treated so severely or should it be a much more minor crime as long as both parties consented an there was no abuse?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/01/23/adult-incest-and-the-law/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b5207b7fcea9

[Goddess]

Even between adults, such as a father & daughter or 2 siblings, there can be a power dynamic that can make consent impossible to judge.  

When children result from incestuous relations, the risk of serious birth defects, early death and physical and mental disabilities increase by 50%.

Those are 2 concerns that lawmakers would have.

(I only know this because I knew a family where the uncle married his niece and they had 2 kids.  2 kids with severe mental disabilities.)

[Argus]

28 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Even between adults, such as a father & daughter or 2 siblings, there can be a power dynamic that can make consent impossible to judge.  

When children result from incestuous relations, the risk of serious birth defects, early death and physical and mental disabilities increase by 50%.

Those are 2 concerns that lawmakers would have.

(I only know this because I knew a family where the uncle married his niece and they had 2 kids.  2 kids with severe mental disabilities.)

I agree that the risk of birth defects, presuming they decide to have kids, is higher. But as the article points out, we don't bar marriage and child bearing for people who have very dangerous birth defects they're likely to pass on. I tend to agree there would still be a power dynamic between parents and children, unless, as in the case mentioned, it was a child who hadn't lived with the parent and had had little in the way of a relationship. I think between siblings, which is the most common type of relationship, it would depend on age. I don't think there' be a power dynamic between siblings of a similar age.

But even if we retain a ban on it I think the penalties are absurdly high, and based more on the ick factor and moral repugnance than any recognized damage being done to anyone.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Argus

[Goddess]

10 minutes ago, Argus said:

But even if we retain a ban on it I think the penalties are absurdly high, and based more on the ick factor and moral repugnance than any recognized damage being done to anyone.

You're prolly right about that.

I wonder how often someone is brought up on incest charges in Canada?

[taxme]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I came across an article in the Washington Post the other day, and it posed the above question. 

Should incest be against the law? And bear in mind we're not speaking about children. Sex with children is against the law regardless of familial ties. We're talking here of consensual adult sex. Should sex between a brother and sister or uncle and niece of parent and child be illegal? 

Right now, the law in Canada calls for up to 14 years in prison, which I think is ridiculous. Where one of the members of the relationship is under 18 it calls for a minimum five years in prison, which I also think is ridiculous. It allows for an 18 year old brother to have consensual sex with a 17 year old sister and get 5 years in prison. Should incest be treated so severely or should it be a much more minor crime as long as both parties consented an there was no abuse?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/01/23/adult-incest-and-the-law/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b5207b7fcea9

There is a reason for having such a law. We all should know by now as to what happens when incest becomes a part of family life. The mental health consequences are enormous and in the end can cost the government(taxpayer)plenty of tax dollars. 

When God created Adam and Eve he must of forgot that eventually all of their decendants would be having sex together with another family member. Everyone on earth are related and are pretty much committing incest every day. Maybe that is why the whole world is fn' crazy. Too much inbreeding. Hey, you never know, eh? LOL. 

[bush_cheney2004]

No...logically "incest" between consenting adults should not be illegal.  

As for stupid Canadian sex laws, is the one for illegal buggering between more than two males still on the books ?

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

No...logically "incest" between consenting adults should not be illegal.  

As for stupid Canadian sex laws, is the one for illegal buggering between more than two males still on the books ?

Could be.  Not sure when the last was it was used to actually prosecute someone.  Prolly about the same length of time as some of the stupid American laws still on the books:

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/weird-laws-in-america_us_56a264abe4b0d8cc1099e1cd

 

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Could be.  Not sure when the last was it was used to actually prosecute someone.  Prolly about the same length of time as some of the stupid American laws still on the books:

 

For sure....this forum already discussed the topic back when Canada gave asylum to a Florida women who had sex with a male teen.   I guess Ms. Hot Pants is now living happily ever after in Canada but can never return to the United States to get it on with more American teens...just Canadian teens !

Edited September 25, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Goddess said:

Even between adults, such as a father & daughter or 2 siblings, there can be a power dynamic that can make consent impossible to judge.  

When children result from incestuous relations, the risk of serious birth defects, early death and physical and mental disabilities increase by 50%.

Those are 2 concerns that lawmakers would have.

(I only know this because I knew a family where the uncle married his niece and they had 2 kids.  2 kids with severe mental disabilities.)

When it comes to family pressure, as we have established on here in another discussion, the only thing that matters is what a person says about their choice.

Were common sense to prevail, it would not be against the law between consenting adults.  People can do what they want.

I'd sterilize them first though.

[bush_cheney2004]

5 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I'd sterilize them first though.

 

Why....abortions are a "right" and so much cheaper !

On a related note (pun intended), some jurisdictions have no such laws for incest between same sex, consenting adults.

[Rue]

On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 1:13 PM, Goddess said:

You're prolly right about that.

I wonder how often someone is brought up on incest charges in Canada?

Here is info on what goes on in the US:

https://www.insideprison.com/Crime_Rates_Detailed_splash.asp?crime=361&crimeName=Incest

Now why did I refer you to the US? Because and I quote:

"Outside the U.S., there has been only one comparably reliable study published: a thirteen-hundred-page report on face-to-face interviews of over 2,000 men and women done for the Canadian government by the Gallup organization, which concludes with incidence rates approximately the same as the U.S. studies."

source:http://www.rationalskepticism.org/social-sciences/just-how-common-is-incest-t9841.html

May I point out that the no. of charges filed in regards to  ANY crime won't accurately predict the actual rate of crimes for the simple reason most crimes never get reported. Particularly in sexual offence crimes most sex crimes are never reported.

With any sex crime and in particular sexual assault and incest, people are reluctant to lay charges fearing the stigma attached.

From https://www.sexassault.ca/statistics.htm consider these stats:

Of every 100 incidents of sexual assault, only 6 are reported to the police

• 1 - 2% of "date rape" sexual assaults are reported to the police
• 1 in 4 North American women will be sexually assaulted during their lifetime
• 11% of women have physical injury resulting for sexual assault
• Only 2 - 4% of all sexual assaults reported are false reports
• 60% of sexual abuse/assault victims are under the age of 17
• over 80% of sex crime victims are women
• 80% of sexual assault incidents occur in the home
• 17% of girls under 16 have experienced some form of incest
• 83% of disabled women will be sexual assaulted during their lifetime
• 15% of sexual assault victims are boys under 16
• half of all sexual offenders are married or in long term relationships
• 57% of aboriginal women have been sexually abused
• 1/5th of all sexual assaults involve a weapon of some sort
• 80% of assailants are friends and family of the victim

It goes on to state this caution:

The above noted statistics have been taken from various studies across Canada. While the numbers can never been 100% accurate, a few key generalizations can made:

1. sexual assault is far more common than most would suspect
2. relatively few incidents of sexual assault are reported to the police
3. young and otherwise vulnerable women are most likely to be sexually abused
4. most sexual assaults are committed by someone close to the victim, not a stranger .

Also this from: https://www.esquire.com/lifestyle/sex/a18194469/incest-porn-trend/

"Incest in the real world is often extremely traumatic and criminal and can have profound mental health implications—namely, because the victims are so often children. In the 63,000 sexual abuse cases substantiated to Child Protective Services every year, 80 percent of the perpetrators are a parent, and 6 percent are other relatives, according to RAINN. Even after the age of 18, factors of youth, emotional immaturity, and the power dynamic between say, a father and daughter figure, are no easier to reconcile."

In my past work and people in the family and child protection sectors, police and counsellors/psychologists/psychiatrists can tell you it happens and in some communities it APPEARS more prevalent than in others but whether it is or not we don't really know.

In my work I saw it a lot in the Guyanese, Portugese, Trinidadian, Indian and various Middle East and Muslim states, i.e., Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan.

I can't say whether it is actually higher but we know in Syria people married into their own families because of civil war and distrust of people outside their families.

We know in Pakistan its prevalent and in communities with incest, the rates in regards to 14 specific gene mutations are very high and the average i.q. of an incest child not seriously damaged by genetic mutation is much lower.

Nature did not intend for gene pools to inbreed. It increases the risk of severe deformities, neurological and mental illnesses, cancer and other diseases not to mention lowers life expectancy.

I can also tell you there does appear to be a pattern where the more rural and isolated one is with a lack of availability of potential partners outside the immediate family, the more likely incest is.

Incest is not limited to poor people by any means. All you have to do is look at the Royal families.

I have worked with children born from incest rapes. Its not pleasant. Even if their intelligence capacity and physical selves are not genetically compromised they have to deal with severe internal identity turmoil feeling guilty for being born. This is why in many orphanages in Canada they would not tell the orphans they were from incest rapes or relationships.

Having seen both the physical and emotional issues associated with incest and the co-relation to sexual crimes of assault, I clearly believe civilized societies can not function with incest and will break down if its allowed.

What is scary is that incest porn is VERY common if not the most common form of porno requested if you ask porn producers. How prevalent is it. All you have to do is check the incest porn out on the web. It is too common and because it is, it means the prediction to engage in it even indirectly by watching it, is real.

 

 

 

[taxme]

On 9/25/2018 at 1:28 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

No...logically "incest" between consenting adults should not be illegal.  

As for stupid Canadian sex laws, is the one for illegal buggering between more than two males still on the books ?

Incest should not be illegal but it is still a sick perverted thing for any family member wanting to screw around with another family member.  

Not on the books anymore. Trudeau's old man made it legal for men to be able to bugger another man anytime they felt like it. It is believed that old man Trudeau was a homosexual himself. 

[Machjo]

On 9/25/2018 at 11:44 AM, Argus said:

I came across an article in the Washington Post the other day, and it posed the above question. 

Should incest be against the law? And bear in mind we're not speaking about children. Sex with children is against the law regardless of familial ties. We're talking here of consensual adult sex. Should sex between a brother and sister or uncle and niece of parent and child be illegal? 

Right now, the law in Canada calls for up to 14 years in prison, which I think is ridiculous. Where one of the members of the relationship is under 18 it calls for a minimum five years in prison, which I also think is ridiculous. It allows for an 18 year old brother to have consensual sex with a 17 year old sister and get 5 years in prison. Should incest be treated so severely or should it be a much more minor crime as long as both parties consented an there was no abuse?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/01/23/adult-incest-and-the-law/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b5207b7fcea9

Given the potential harms, it should be illegal, though I'd probably limit the penalty to a heavy fine that doubles for each repetition of the offence, with the fine for a first offence well above a thousand dollars.

[Rue]

On 9/28/2018 at 4:44 PM, taxme said:

Incest should not be illegal but it is still a sick perverted thing for any family member wanting to screw around with another family member.  

Not on the books anymore. Trudeau's old man made it legal for men to be able to bugger another man anytime they felt like it. It is believed that old man Trudeau was a homosexual himself. 

1. You response provides an excellent example of why incest should remain illegal.

2.Trudeau's father was part of a legal process carried out by many people that decriminalize a person for being gay. It has nothing to do with when gay men or gay women choose to have sex or how often. Sodomy which is what you were probably referring to by the way,  used to be illegal for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals. 

3.Trudeau was bisexual and never denied he was. Everyone in Quebec was well aware of this. If you need an up to date list of gays and lesbians which it sounds like you do go to: www.wheredotheyputit.html.com.

Finally when you start a sentence with the words " it is believed" it does not  make your opinion any more valid by distancing it's origins from you.

Regards, Dr. Rue, proctologist to the stars

 

Edited September 30, 2018 by Rue

[taxme]

20 hours ago, Rue said:

1. You response provides an excellent example of why incest should remain illegal.

2.Trudeau's father was part of a legal process carried out by many people that decriminalize a person for being gay. It has nothing to do with when gay men or gay women choose to have sex or how often. Sodomy which is what you were probably referring to by the way,  used to be illegal for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals. 

3.Trudeau was bisexual and never denied he was. Everyone in Quebec was well aware of this. If you need an up to date list of gays and lesbians which it sounds like you do go to: www.wheredotheyputit.html.com.

Finally when you start a sentence with the words " it is believed" it does not  make your opinion any more valid by distancing it's origins from you.

Regards, Dr. Rue, proctologist to the stars

 

1. Very funny. But your reply is not funny at all. Boring. You best stay with the job that you have working at Burger King. Comedy is not your gig. But are you certain that I am the product of incest or are you? Just wondering. 

2. Hey, if people want to have sex with the same gender go for it. But in my opinion homosexuality is not normal. Those people may be the products of incest. Just saying. 

3. No time for that website. There is no need for a straight guy like me to want to ever go visit a perverted website. Those websites are left for people like you to go visit. Enjoy. LOL.

4. Wow, okay. 

5. Enjoy your butt hole job. LOL. 

[Argus]

On 9/30/2018 at 7:05 PM, Rue said:

1. You response provides an excellent example of why incest should remain illegal.

Because it offends people?

[Rue]

19 hours ago, Argus said:

Because it offends people?

I doubt he offends anyone  at this point. He does  however provide a very  strong argument why incest should remain illegal.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/07/cousin-marriage-can-reduce-i-q-a-lot/#.W7yNR4-cFpk

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC392897/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289608001608

 

 

[Argus]

12 hours ago, Rue said:

I doubt he offends anyone  at this point. He does  however provide a very  strong argument why incest should remain illegal.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/07/cousin-marriage-can-reduce-i-q-a-lot/#.W7yNR4-cFpk

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC392897/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289608001608

Yes, we all know that incest which produces children has a higher risk of bringing children into the world with birth defects. That is not open to debate. However, we also know that a number of people with certain conditions which are genetic will, if they have children, have a very strongly increased chance of them having severe birth defects, and that is not illegal.

And even with this taken into consideration that is a logical rule to prevent people from having children, not from having sex.

[WestCanMan]

On 9/25/2018 at 9:33 AM, Goddess said:

Even between adults, such as a father & daughter or 2 siblings, there can be a power dynamic that can make consent impossible to judge.  

When children result from incestuous relations, the risk of serious birth defects, early death and physical and mental disabilities increase by 50%.

 

Yup. That, and the fact that it's repugnant. 

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Yup. That, and the fact that it's repugnant. 

 

If repugnant was against the law we'd need more prisons.

[WestCanMan]

57 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

If repugnant was against the law we'd need more prisons.

lol

[Rue]

On 10/9/2018 at 7:49 PM, Argus said:

Yes, we all know that incest which produces children has a higher risk of bringing children into the world with birth defects. That is not open to debate. However, we also know that a number of people with certain conditions which are genetic will, if they have children, have a very strongly increased chance of them having severe birth defects, and that is not illegal.

And even with this taken into consideration that is a logical rule to prevent people from having children, not from having sex.

I just read this. The logic is sound if the only issue was children being born deformed but its not.

Further using your argument does it mean paedophilia should be legal as long as no one gets pregnant?

The incest relationship is not just about  making genetically defective children but also creating  a plethora of complex negative psychological, emotional and physical health issues other than defective children..

Do you really think someone who has sex with his mother or sister could be healthy and have a positive life?

I have been one on  one with incest victims in court. Their stories and the impact on them led me to learn the damage done via incest can be multi-generational, contagious and is very rarely consensual or between people of equal capacity and power.

I am loath to morally judge behaviour but I draw the line with paedophilia, incest, sexual assault and yes I believe laws dealing with sexual behaviour must set limitations.

I do have a Freudian bias as to this issue as well. I follow Freud's conclusions as to the need to limit, i.e. repress certain sexual desires if society is to evolve past basic primate behaviour.

I also believe that while sex has a purpose to procreate life, in the case of humans, it may also have a pleasure function. I don't believe either issue should be used as sole criteria for defining social morale and laws but form part of a wider criteria of considerations.

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Rue

[Argus]

15 minutes ago, Rue said:

I just read this. The logic is sound if the only issue was children being born deformed. Point However does it mean paedophilia should be legal as long as no one gets pregnant?

The incest relationship is not just about  making genetically defective children but also creating  a plethora of complex negative  psychological, emotional and physical health issues other than at child birth.

Do you really think someone who has sex with his mother or sister could be healthy and have a positive life?

I have been one o  one with incest victims. Their stories and the impact on them led me to learn the damage done can be multi-generational, contagious and is very rarely consensual or between people of equal capacity and power.

I am loath to morally judge behaviour but I draw the line with paedophilia, incest, sexual assault.

But we're talking about adults, not children, not people under age. And we've pretty much asserted that adults have the right to do just about any kind of sexual thing to each other they want as long as both sides consent. Could such relationships be open to emotional abuse? Of course! But then, most relationships are. Could this lead to one partner dominating the other? Sure, but that happens all the time too. A lot of people who are heavily screwed up in the head wind up in sexual relationships with others who abuse them emotionally or otherwise take advantage of them. And none of it is illegal.

[Rue]

Again  you make salient arguments Arg and I edited my response while you wrote yours anticipating additional issues.

Bottom line, if two consenting adults are not reproducing, and their decision is not based on violence, exploitation, it may not be a concern for the state, and become a moral decision to be decided between individuals privately.

As I stated I am loath to use the state to define sexuality nor do I consider myself a role model of chastity and righteousness. I sleep with dogs.

 

[cannuck]

It also opens up issues such as polygamy, which, while I don't think is a very good idea, I can't find any logical argument to oppose.   Same applies to consensual sex between related adults.

BTW: until reading through this thread, I had no idea just how large the parent/child issue was.   Yuck!!!