Should Canada explore an amicable separation from Quebec?

[Machjo]

Given the cost of official bilingualism, should Canada negotiate an amicable separation from Quebec?

For example, we might negotiate a common bi-national citizenship; but other than that, both would operate as sovereign states.

[turningrite]

I wasn't even aware Quebec separation remains a hot-button issue at this point in time. If it's not, why make it one? If one thing has become clear over the past few years it's that Quebecers and other Canadians share a lot of the same concerns and problems. We live on a continent dominated by a bullying neighbor to the south. And Canadians outside of Quebec share with that province many of the same insecurities over population and cultural trends. If anything, our interests have converged over the past generation. We already share a citizenship and Quebec is largely left alone to govern itself within its allocated areas of jurisdiction.

[Machjo]

1 hour ago, turningrite said:

I wasn't even aware Quebec separation remains a hot-button issue at this point in time. If it's not, why make it one? If one thing has become clear over the past few years it's that Quebecers and other Canadians share a lot of the same concerns and problems. We live on a continent dominated by a bullying neighbor to the south. And Canadians outside of Quebec share with that province many of the same insecurities over population and cultural trends. If anything, our interests have converged over the past generation. We already share a citizenship and Quebec is largely left alone to govern itself within its allocated areas of jurisdiction.

You might be correct that all of these years of decentralization might have weakened the sovereignty movement.

[Centerpiece]

3 hours ago, Machjo said:

Given the cost of official bilingualism, should Canada negotiate an amicable separation from Quebec?

For example, we might negotiate a common bi-national citizenship; but other than that, both would operate as sovereign states.

No.

[Queenmandy85]

No.

[Guest]

Sure, why not?

[Hates politicians]

Tell them here's your share of the debt. Now get out. Then english only in canada

[Wilber]

Sure, we could have East and West Canada. Like East and West Pakistan. On the other hand, that didn't work.

[Zeitgeist]

No.  Quebec is a valued part of Canada.

[Machjo]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

No.  Quebec is a valued part of Canada.

But if we maintained a common citizenship, any Canadian could still move to Quebec and any Quebecer to Canada visa-free and even vote in their respective elections. In a sense, it would not truly be 'separation' but perhaps more accurately described as 'hyper-decentralization' or making Quebec a semi-autonomous region.

[Wilber]

Quebec is already semi autonomous.

[Zeitgeist]

14 hours ago, Wilber said:

Quebec is already semi autonomous.

Exactly.  They have special powers, such as control over their own pension plan, political system (Code Civil), unemployment, etc.  Even on language they buck the trend because Quebec isn't officially bilingual.  There are very restrictive language laws that limit languages other than French.  Harper's government also declared Quebec a nation.  Quebec is thriving and relations with the rest of Canada have probably never been better.  A lot of kids are learning French in immersion programs across the country, especially in provinces like Ontario.  It wasn't always like this.  As a child I remember feeling a bit xenophobic about Quebec because there was a real distance between English and French Canada, two solitudes.  Now I find myself slipping in and out of French and hearing others do the same, even though I grew up in English Canada.  Canada is very unified these days.  The biggest division in the country is on the environment.  Quebec and B.C. have aligned themselves against pipelines.  Who would have thought that the most English part of the country and the most French would be so politically united.  In some ways those places are the most left wing parts of the country.  I love both provinces for very different reasons.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[Argus]

On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 10:14 PM, Zeitgeist said:

No.  Quebec is a valued part of Canada.

Valued for what?

[Machjo]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

Valued for what?

For a large chunk of the Canadian economy among other things?

[Wilber]

3 minutes ago, Machjo said:

For a large chunk of the Canadian economy among other things?

Canada would be split geographically. How long the Maritimes and Newfoundland would remain part the rest of Canada is very questionable. New Brunswick is the only official bilingual province, it might just join Quebec. Who knows about the others.

[Machjo]

13 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Canada would be split geographically. How long the Maritimes and Newfoundland would remain part the rest of Canada is very questionable. New Brunswick is the only official bilingual province, it might just join Quebec. Who knows about the others.

If we maintain a common citizenship though, then the Quebec corridor wouldn't seem so imposing since private citizens could freely cross it easily enough.

 

As for governments, yes, I can see your point that Canadian military equipment couldn't just cross a quasi-sovereign Quebec without its consent, meaning that for the most part, what's on the east coast would stay there and what's on the other side of Quebec would stay there. Unless they're willing to head North over Quebec and then down through Nunavut I suppose.

Given the cost of going around Quebec, Canada would probably just negotiate paying a fee for Quebec to allow Canadian military equipment to cross the borders freely I guess.

 

But again, for private citizens, if we maintained a common citizenship, that would be a non-issue.

[Wilber]

We already have that.

[Machjo]

Just now, Wilber said:

We already have that.

Have what? Hyperdecentralizaton? No we don't. We have decentralization but not to that degree.

[August1991]

On 9/12/2018 at 3:49 PM, Machjo said:

Given the cost of official bilingualism, should Canada negotiate an amicable separation from Quebec?

For example, we might negotiate a common bi-national citizenship; but other than that, both would operate as sovereign states.

Two languages? Half of Canada's milk is produced in Quebec. Do cows speak a language?

=====

I happen to think that if I pay a tax, the government tax bureaucrat collecting the tax should - at least - speak my language. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, August1991 said:

 Do cows speak a language?

 

That's a moot point...

[Wilber]

16 hours ago, Machjo said:

Have what? Hyperdecentralizaton? No we don't. We have decentralization but not to that degree.

What would be in it for Quebec? All those things you want, the ROC would need for unfettered access to the Atlantic and between the ROC’s provinces. Quebec would not. What incentive would the Maritimes have to stick with Provinces that were so willing to cut them off from the rest of their country? How would the remaining provinces build infrastructure needed to tie them together? How would you handle defence? Etc, etc. Lot of difficult issues there and for what?

We aren’t the only country with more than one official language, Switzerland  has four. Even though the US is officially English, Spanish is extensively used, both commercially and by governments.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Wilber

[Wilber]

Why do you want to make being Canadian even more complicated? Do you dislike French that much?

[bush_cheney2004]

10 minutes ago, Wilber said:

We aren’t the only country with more than one official language, Switzerland  has four. Even though the US is officially English, Spanish is extensively used, both commercially and by governments.

 

The United States has no official language.   Several states do....now back to Canada.

[Machjo]

1 hour ago, Wilber said:

What would be in it for Quebec? All those things you want, the ROC would need for unfettered access to the Atlantic and between the ROC’s provinces. Quebec would not. What incentive would the Maritimes have to stick with Provinces that were so willing to cut them off from the rest of their country? How would the remaining provinces build infrastructure needed to tie them together? How would you handle defence? Etc, etc. Lot of difficult issues there and for what?

We aren’t the only country with more than one official language, Switzerland  has four. Even though the US is officially English, Spanish is extensively used, both commercially and by governments.

Switzerland is a bad example. While canada's is based on the personality principle (i.e. from coat to coast to coast), Switzerland's is based on the territorial principle (i.e. official unilingualism in any given region). Indonesia has over 100 languages with an official or de facto status locally, but again that's local. Nationally, Indonesia has but one easy-to-learn official language that all Indonesians are expected to learn as their common second language (since the national language originally evolved from a trade pidgin). 

 

So yes, if we follow the territoriality principle, Canada could handle countless official languages as long as it has a common language at the national level. Otherwise, even two languages becomes unwieldy. Heck, even our MPs need interpreters like UN ambassadors in Parliament.That should say something.

[Wilber]

Still, you haven't given me one real reason other than you don't like bilingualism