Saudi Arabia expells Canadian ambassador

[turningrite]

On 8/6/2018 at 8:09 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada still imports sweet crude from the Saudis...must be best buddies.   Too stupid to build east-west pipeline infrastructure.

And we'll continue to do it because we won't allow Eastern Canada to be supplied by Western Canadian oil. What a country! It's almost too funny that Quebec could be negatively impacted if the supply of Saudi oil dries up due to political stance taken by a Quebec-based PM. Oh, and there are reports that Saudis are trying to stir up separatist discontent in Quebec as well.

https://business.financialpost.com/commodities/why-it-wont-be-easy-for-quebec-and-atlantic-canadian-refineries-to-replace-saudi-oil

https://montrealgazette.com/news/quebec/saudi-trolls-support-quebecs-independence-amidst-conflict-with-canada

[Zeitgeist]

These are mostly bullshit comments from U.S. Trump supporters.  Smarten up.  Saudi Arabia imprisons and mistreats political activists.  Canada was speaking up for Canadian nationals.  Stop turning this into a left versus right thing.  You should be standing with Canada the way Canada stood with you after 911.  The LAV deal was questioned because of how the Saudis were purported to plan to use this equipment.  What kind of country says, “That’s it, come home, you’re no longer allowed to study in a country that raised human rights concerns.”  Remember those, Trump supporters?  You keep talking about the Trudeau “feminist agenda”, but I’m starting to wonder if there’s some real misogyny in your remarks, because you don’t respect the rights that Freeland was trying to defend.   There was nothing unusual about those tweets, but after Trump’s major anti-Iran swing (mostly a partisan anti-Obama move), now the Saudis figure the U.S. has given them a green like to behave like tyrants.  It’s so obvious.

[turningrite]

1 hour ago, Centerpiece said:

Could be that the worst part of what the Trudeau gang has brought upon Canada is the eventual departure of 18,000 Saudi university students - they will be transferred to the US, Australia and others. Not only does it take significant funding from universities - but it wastes an opportunity to indoctrinate Saudi youth to Canadian democracy - and take that back home. That should be all part of the longer term plan to help the Kingdom turn the ship around.

There might be an upside here as reportedly hundreds of Saudis are medical residents in this country. If the Saudi government forces them to go elsewhere, perhaps space will open up for some of the Canadian medical grads who can't get residency positions in this country.

https://www.thestar.com/vancouver/2018/04/17/official-data-confirms-more-canadian-medical-grads-are-without-residency-positions-than-ever-before.html

[turningrite]

13 hours ago, cannuck said:

I assume that the bottom line is that they weren't using the "appropriate" engineering and consulting companies (i.e. not those who are...let's just say FRIENDLY....to the federal bureaucrats).  Chief Marshall is probably going to go it on his own with the Irish guy(s).   This is typical of reserves all across the country - and also true of a lot of small communities. 

We have encountered similar stories of completely ridiculous and seemingly incompetent behaviour by the feds in foreign locations.   It's all about the providers being "on the bandwagon" that seems to be steered by government employees that, well, you know - just seem to be living a lot better lifestyle than their pay stubs suggest is possible.

The Libs are masters at the scams of public money, but the Trudeau #2 bunch have literally no idea of the politics of the countries outside of Canada, nor for that matter, the politics and realities INSIDE of Canada.  Just their own twisted politically correct, mindless agenda.

A couple thoughts:

1) The drinking supply issue is very complex and not difficult to resolve. As you note, scaling down solutions is problematic and it's likely true that federal bureaucrats favor certain providers and solutions over excluding others. Also, I recently read an article about one reserve in Quebec which was seeking a groundwater solution only to find the groundwater supply contaminated by naturally occurring uranium. A lot of northern reserves don't necessarily have access to easily treatable water supplies. It may seem counterintuitive that this would be a problem in Canada but apparently it is the case.

2) Did Freeland have a clue as to what she was doing when she tweeted her critique of Saudi misbehavior? Did she have any sense of the potential extent of the blowback? I think her criticism was mainly intended for domestic consumption and that she's probably surprised at the backlash. Were the Trudeau government to go after all the countries in the world that violate gender and/or LGBTQ rights we'd probably be boycotted by many regimes. Usually Trudeau prefers to characterize these regimes/countries as "evolving" rather than backward. It seems odd, then, that Freeland chose to attack a single country if this is really about principle.

[AngusThermopyle]

11 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

It was a comment on the mistreatment of peaceful protesters in a foreign country. There's no hope for reform in KSA if it can't even tolerate that. 

And you're really going to criticize Canadian politicians for using Twitter indiscreetly?

Why yes, yes I will criticize them. If they knew anything at all about the Kingdom they'd know that things are done very privately in that country.  Deals and arrangements are made behind closed doors, that's how it is and always has been. If you don't play by those rules then they don't let you play at all. This is something you'd expect the current government to know and understand. In fact the Saudi's have been taking steps, small, but steps nonetheless towards a society that is more free. Perhaps you may not think it's enough, they don't care. Tact and diplomacy are the only things that matter when dealing with them. Once again the Trudeau Liberals have screwed up royally. I can't think of anything they haven't screwed up actually.

[betsy]

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

These are mostly bullshit comments from U.S. Trump supporters.  Smarten up.  Saudi Arabia imprisons and mistreats political activists.  Canada was speaking up for Canadian nationals.  Stop turning this into a left versus right thing.  You should be standing with Canada the way Canada stood with you after 911.  The LAV deal was questioned because of how the Saudis were purported to plan to use this equipment.  What kind of country says, “That’s it, come home, you’re no longer allowed to study in a country that raised human rights concerns.”  Remember those, Trump supporters?  You keep talking about the Trudeau “feminist agenda”, but I’m starting to wonder if there’s some real misogyny in your remarks, because you don’t respect the rights that Freeland was trying to defend.   There was nothing unusual about those tweets, but after Trump’s major anti-Iran swing (mostly a partisan anti-Obama move), now the Saudis figure the U.S. has given them a green like to behave like tyrants.  It’s so obvious.

 

The thing unusual about those tweets.....is why on earth are they tweeting subjects that should be discussed diplomatically?  

THEY ARE NOT TRUMP - so stop copycatting Trump!  Tweeting his policies and decisions - that's the signature of Trump!  Only Trump can pull that off!   

 

You don't need an ambassador anywhere if Freeland and others will simply resort to tweets!  Freakin' unreal!

 

First, it was Trudeau's tweet that got us the border problem. 

  Now, Freeland's tweet will also costs us billions (some are not so easily determined)!  Take those tweeter account from them! 

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

Quote

 

And then there are the personalities and political concerns of the two young leaders in Ottawa and Riyadh: Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, widely known by his initials, MBS. “Both sides are playing politics here,” says Ali Shihabi, founder of the Arabia Foundation, a Washington think-tank. Trudeau, he argues, is “grand-standing and posturing on women’s rights” to compensate for an unpopular decision to persist with a $12 billion deal to sell Saudi Arabia armored personnel carriers. The Canadian criticism, unnecessarily public, certainly smacks a little of virtue-signaling.

For his part, MBS “sees himself as managing an unprecedented and delicate reform process, and doesn’t want outside criticism making it more difficult, let alone from allies who are beneficiaries of Saudi business, so he’s very upset with the Canadians,” Shihabi says.

 

There’s a lesson for Freeland, and for diplomats everywhere: tweet less, talk more.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-07/canada-and-saudi-arabia-spar-on-twitter-and-no-one-will-win

Edited August 8, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

These are mostly bullshit comments from U.S. Trump supporters.  Smarten up.  Saudi Arabia imprisons and mistreats political activists. 

So does freakin CHINA!

 

 

 

Quote

 

Justin Trudeau,  then running for the leadership of his party in 2013, was given a lob-ball question from a supporter at a “Ladies Night” meet-and-greet in Toronto: “Which nation, besides Canada, which nation’s administration do you most admire, and why?”

The future prime minister’s odd answer: “You know, there’s a level of admiration I actually have for China ….”

China? Why China?

“Because their basic dictatorship is allowing them to actually turn their economy around on a dime and say ‘we need to go green  fastest…we need to start investing in solar.'”

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/3899392/trudeau-admires-most-not-china/

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

Notice the difference in tone with China!

 

 

Quote

 

Chrystia Freeland decries plight of four Canadians jailed in China

 

Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland says Prime Minister Justin Trudeau takes "very, very personally to heart" the plight of Canadians imprisoned in China and she doesn't know why Beijing won't heed Ottawa's pleas to free them.

 

Ms. Freeland acknowledged that China's one-party dictatorship and record of human-rights abuse trouble many Canadians, but she said Canada nevertheless needs to expand trade with the world's fastest-growing economy.

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/chrystia-freeland-decries-plight-of-canadians-jailed-in-china/article37170212/

 

In other  words, let's not really go there - let's not make a big deal out of it.

See?   You lose your high-ground and credibility when you say Canadian "values"  are for sale!  That's not only hypocritical.  That's despicable.

 

 

Of course, ther could be another factor at play here:  KSA is a close friend of Trump.

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

On 8/6/2018 at 7:28 PM, Argus said:

So apparently the Saudi royals are taking their queue from Donald Trump in going nuclear whenever anyone tweets something they don't like. In response to a tweet from Canada about a womens rights campaigner (the sister in law of people Canada has accepted as refugees and given citizenship to) the Saudis have withdrawn their ambassador, expelled Canada's ambassador, ended all future trade (except for selling us oil, of course), and ordered 12,000 Saudis studying in Canada to end their studies and go elsewhere.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/newsalert-saudi-arabia-expelling-canadian-ambassador?video_autoplay=true

 

First of all, they are not Trump.  Unless they can deal with retaliations - they shouldn't be tweeting any issues that should be discussed DIPLOMATICALLY.

Second, who needs an ambassador anyway.....if they will bypass him, and deal with sensitive issues through tweeter? 

 

And yeah.....it's a women's rights campaigner, right?   FYI, women's rights in the west is very much different from the rights that women from Islamic States are clamoring for.   Add to that,  Canada's women's rights entail the rights to fornication and abortion (as seen from a religious perspective).  How do you think that flies in an Islamic state? 

Don't forget too that the LGBT movement is back-to-back with feminist movement - that's how Trudeau is.  I wouldn't be surprised if that's part of this strong reaction from the KSA.

How KSA respond to Trudeau adminstration might be a precedent.   I won't be surprised if we see all religious-based countries to start pushing back........where it hurts Canada the most.   TRADE.

 

The spat with the USA is no secret, you know.   Everyone knows we're hurting.

Besides, Canada has no moral high ground and credibility.....when faced with China.  Morneau gives empty words.  Our so-called values mean squat when we're talking dollars.  At least, that's what the Trudeau admin shows to the world.

(please see my two previous posts)

Edited August 8, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

Notice how quiet European nations are?  Even Macron and Merkel?   

 

Quote

Earlier this year, Saudi government agencies were told to cut back on contracts with German companies, apparently in response to a comment in November by Germany’s then foreign minister suggesting that Lebanon was a “pawn” of Saudi Arabia.

Fortunately, the spat with Germany did not get out of hand, and the Saudi ambassador to Stockholm returned his post — which allows for some optimism that relations with Canada will return to normal after a time. But Riyadh’s open hostility will make the walk-back longer and harder. And harder still, because it all began on social media, where furies unleashed are notoriously hard to tame.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-07/canada-and-saudi-arabia-spar-on-twitter-and-no-one-will-win

[betsy]

On 8/6/2018 at 7:28 PM, Argus said:

It is, I think, worthwhile pointing out that while assorted progressive idiots insist on blaming western interference in the Arab world for terrorism, almost every world terrorist group subscribes to the Saudi Wahabbi form of Islam, which is extremely violent, intolerant, and hateful towards anyone not following that school, but particularly to Jews and Christians. ISIS and Al Quaeda are both inspired by Wahabbi Islam, as are other world terrorist groups like Al Shabaab and Boko Haram in Africa, as well as Indonesian terrorist groups. Their common religious ideological beliefs flow through Saudi Arabia's cult-like version of Islam, which it has spent many tens of billions of dollars spreading around the world.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-yousaf-butt-/saudi-wahhabism-islam-terrorism_b_6501916.html

Bottomline:  You don't make demands by tweeting......especially when you've got no leverage.  

 

Not only do you embarrass a nation publicly...... but it is an open challenge that will make a country dig in all the more.  face it.  Tweeting that demand and rebuke was a costly, stupid move.   Kinda like the stupid open-invitation tweet by Trudeau.

 

Lol.  Unconfirmed rumours (mentioned by CBC) says  the Trudeau admin is begging UK to intervene to make a dialogue between Canada and KSA to happen.   Canada sounds  panicky desperate.  Talk about between a hard rock and hard place.  Which will you wanna lose?  Face?  Or, billions?

 

Don't start something you can't finish.  Trudeau is our downfall.

Edited August 8, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

Holy cow!   KSA stopped importation of wheat and barley!

Even Saudi patients are being taken out of Canada!  I think there's more to this than meets the eye.

Edited August 8, 2018 by betsy

[turningrite]

1 hour ago, betsy said:

  I think there's more to this than meets the eye.

Of course there is. Saudi Arabia's Wahhabist regime is walking a tightrope between recent openness to reform on the one side and entrenched hard-line Islamism on the other. This was never going to be easy. The regime has to satisfy two opposing constituencies but in opting for the hard-line position it's reverting to form. I think it's sending the message that while reform may be possible, it will be very minimal and very gradual and the old rules will remain in place. And I read this morning that other Arab nations are joining the chorus on behalf of the Saudi regime, basically warning the West to shut up about human rights in the region. We have to remember that these countries don't recognize the legitimacy of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (at least within their own borders) and have in fact put in place a substitute doctrine called the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam. Only daydreamers and naifs, like our PM and apparently many in his cabinet, believe these two ideologically opposed philosophies are somehow reconcilable.

Edited August 8, 2018 by turningrite

[cannuck]

We may not agree with how the Saudis do things at home, but by the same token, it is THEIR law and THEIR business.   Anyone with a tiny bit of intelligence would know that the Saudis are a hugely important ally to the West in MENA and you simply hold your nose about some of the things they do to keep that relationship open and workable.   Anyone who actually KNOWS anything about KSA also knows that some of the most security-critical contracts go to Canadian companies - as the DID trust us...until the advent of the Trudiots.  One must also remember that Saudi nationals/citizens are not captives, they live in or leave a KINGDOM (not a democracy) where they get negative taxation and can live a very fine lifestyle by simply following the rules.  Pretty much the same deal aboriginals get in Canada.

This probably rates as the biggest diplomatic screw-up on the plant this year, maybe this decade.

Edited August 8, 2018 by cannuck

[betsy]

1 hour ago, turningrite said:

Of course there is. Saudi Arabia's Wahhabist regime is walking a tightrope between recent openness to reform on the one side and entrenched hard-line Islamism on the other. This was never going to be easy. The regime has to satisfy two opposing constituencies but in opting for the hard-line position it's reverting to form. I think it's sending the message that while reform may be possible, it will be very minimal and very gradual and the old rules will remain in place. And I read this morning that other Arab nations are joining the chorus on behalf of the Saudi regime, basically warning the West to shut up about human rights in the region. We have to remember that these countries don't recognize the legitimacy of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (at least within their own borders) and have in fact put in place a substitute doctrine called the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam. Only daydreamers and naifs, like our PM and apparently many in his cabinet, believe these two ideologically opposed philosophies are somehow reconcilable.

KSA isn't done yet with Canada.  They're selling off assets they've got in Canada, "at whatever cost."  That must be the answer to millionaire Morneau's posturing yesterday, and the ministers' standing by their tweets!  Lol.  The arrogance that cost billions......and more problems for ordinary Canadians like you and I.   

Trudeau's feminist and LGBT activism could very well be at the heart of this. 

 

A Saudi minister says Canada knows what to do to rectify this.  Big apology?

Edited August 8, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

Notice how Canadian mainstream media try to dilute these costly retaliatory measures:  "this is a message to the west."

 

No.  This is a message to Trudeau.

 

Trump didn't particularly push for feminism and LGBT issues. Look how Trump was treated!    And if what I've read quite a while back is accurate, the young prince of Saudi was taking advice from Kushner in opening up and bringing KSA to the present.

Edited August 8, 2018 by betsy

[turningrite]

2 minutes ago, betsy said:

KSA isn't done yet with Canada.  They're selling off assets they've got in Canada, "at whatever cost."

Trudeau's feminist and LGBT activism could very well be at the heart of this. 

 

A Saudi minister says Canada knows what to do to rectify this.  Big apology?

There seems to be widespread agreement that the Saudi government is utilizing what it believes to be our government's grandstanding on (Western) human rights to bully the rest of the West into compliance with the notion of Islamic exceptionalism. And, so far, the Saudis appear to be succeeding. My question is whether our government had any intention of becoming a whipping boy in this context or whether Freeland and Trudeau have fallen into this by mistake? If Freeland backs away from her stance, the government's international human rights strategy (i.e. "they're evolving") and its mantra of inherently reconcilable values will be exposed as shams. I don't think the 'sunny ways' approach will accomplish much here. But the question remains as to whether the government had or has any idea what it's gotten into here?

[turningrite]

19 minutes ago, betsy said:

Notice how Canadian mainstream media try to dilute these costly retaliatory measures:  "this is a message to the west."

No.  This is a message to Trudeau.

 

Trudeau/Freeland made Canada a target. But I think the Saudi action has much more to do with reinforcing the message of Islamic exceptionalism, as outlined in the Cairo Declaration. It's sending a message to its own activists and reformers and to the West in general that its hard-line approach remains intact despite some tentative reforms. Reportedly other Arab countries are lining up in support of this position. Our naive government should have been able to anticipate this. Canada is an easy target because our trade with the region and its investment in this country are in both cases relatively small. The Saudis and the Arab countries in general get to make a statement that they'll tolerate no values-based interference in their affairs. Naively, our government has viewed conflicting cultural ideologies as reconcilable. They are not. I believe that it's primarily our government's naivety that's has landed Canada at the centre of this showdown. Other Western governments, and particularly those in countries with significant economic ties to the Arabic world, will no doubt heed the Saudi warning. None, if any, of the major Western economic powers are coming to Canada's defense. The silence speaks volumes.

Edited August 8, 2018 by turningrite

[Wilber]

This will come back on the Saudis as well. If you are a western business person, how comfortable will you be going into a business relationship with the Saudis when you know one Tweet can blow your whole investment up? If the Saudis want partners, their approach to getting them is questionable.

[Centerpiece]

38 minutes ago, Wilber said:

This will come back on the Saudis as well. If you are a western business person, how comfortable will you be going into a business relationship with the Saudis when you know one Tweet can blow your whole investment up? If the Saudis want partners, their approach to getting them is questionable.

It wasn't just the tweet. That was the final straw. Gerald Butts/Trudeau's sanctimonious, virtuous ramblings have been embarrassing Canada on the world stage for some time. That's why Canada's allies have not stepped up with any support. We made our own bed - and now we have to sleep in it. It doesn't help that our shallow Prime Minister is unable to develop any personal relationships with Western leaders.

So no - Canada is alone on this one - thanks to a completely incompetent, moralistic, naive, arrogant federal government. Politically biased? Not so much. Disgusted with how this government represents Canada? Absolutely! Ashamed and embarrassed of our "leader". That too. If Marc Garneau had been chosen leader, he would not have had Gerald Butts pulling the strings - and we would see a completely different approach to governing.

 

[turningrite]

8 minutes ago, Centerpiece said:

It wasn't just the tweet. That was the final straw. Gerald Butts/Trudeau's sanctimonious, virtuous ramblings have been embarrassing Canada on the world stage for some time. That's why Canada's allies have not stepped up with any support. We made our own bed - and now we have to sleep in it. It doesn't help that our shallow Prime Minister is unable to develop any personal relationships with Western leaders.

So no - Canada is alone on this one - thanks to a completely incompetent, moralistic, naive, arrogant federal government. Politically biased? Not so much. Disgusted with how this government represents Canada? Absolutely! Ashamed and embarrassed of our "leader". That too. If Marc Garneau had been chosen leader, he would not have had Gerald Butts pulling the strings - and we would see a completely different approach to governing.

 

The Trudeau government floats along obliviously on an idealistic raft of unicorns, lollipops and gratuitous platitudes. Western and Islamic ideologies, particularly where different views about "rights" are concerned, were never and will never will be reconcilable. Freeland has demonstrated her foolishness about this in the past, as exhibited by her much ridiculed performance when interviewed by Bill Maher in 2015. The Trudeau government just doesn't 'get it' where differing cultural values are concerned. Their preferred notion of globalist multicultural convergence is just plain silly. And we're now paying a price for this naive thinking.

[SpankyMcFarland]

12 hours ago, AngusThermopyle said:

Why yes, yes I will criticize them. If they knew anything at all about the Kingdom they'd know that things are done very privately in that country.  Deals and arrangements are made behind closed doors, that's how it is and always has been. If you don't play by those rules then they don't let you play at all. This is something you'd expect the current government to know and understand. In fact the Saudi's have been taking steps, small, but steps nonetheless towards a society that is more free. Perhaps you may not think it's enough, they don't care. Tact and diplomacy are the only things that matter when dealing with them. Once again the Trudeau Liberals have screwed up royally. I can't think of anything they haven't screwed up actually.

My comment about tweeting was directed at a fervent Trump supporter. 

The Canadian govt does know the Saudis - and how previous more prudent Saudi administrations would have behaved here - but tact and diplomacy become craven silence and complicity at a certain point. The new Saudi regime has already shown itself to be highly reckless with its relentless bombing of Yemen and its blockade of Qatar which almost turned into an invasion. MBS even extorted money from his own wealthy businessmen. As expected, he’s clueless about diplomacy or running a country. There’s a serious downside to doing business with these people. Do you agree we should apologize as the Saudis are now demanding? It’s a hysterical over-reaction. We have absolutely nothing to apologize for. 

And I hope none of the critics of Iran’s human rights abuses are urging tact here.  That would be kind of hypocritical. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by SpankyMcFarland

[Wilber]

I agree that Trudeau's preachiness is wearing thin, I've never liked that about him.

 

However, I'm actually good not dealing with that bunch, not that there is much trade with them anyway.

 

 

[Argus]

3 hours ago, cannuck said:

We may not agree with how the Saudis do things at home, but by the same token, it is THEIR law and THEIR business.   Anyone with a tiny bit of intelligence would know that the Saudis are a hugely important ally to the West in MENA

An Allie? Against the terrorism they themselves spawn?