Faisal Hussain - the evolving story

[eyeball]

On 7/27/2018 at 5:14 PM, Hal 9000 said:

Well, yes you do know.  These are all subcategories, but it comes down to marginalization.  School shootings are almost entirely young white men who have been marginalized by society as a whole.  After every school shooting we talk about bullying, why?  Because we know that has a major effect.  Now, when a muslim shoots up people on the street or drives over them in  a truck, it's not because of being marginalized by society, they couldn't care less about that.  It's about Islam, plain and simple.  We can talk about upbringing, political and western policy and mental illness all day long, but those ideas just lead to the real reason - Islam.

Not all muslims pull off these attacks, just as not all young men shoot up schools, but when an attack is described on the TV, one can guess the gender, race and age span of the killer before the news announces it.  It's not rocket science.    

I think it might be geometry, specifically that of fractals.  it shouldn't be that much of a stretch to see a similarity across scales between an individual and a society. Given that its perhaps less difficult to see how one society might come to feel it's being marginalized and bullied by another and act as one might suppose, in a fashion similar to that of an individual.

Hopefully there's some utility to be realized by thinking or looking at it this way but its probably not for everyone. 

[Centerpiece]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

I think it might be geometry, specifically that of fractals.  it shouldn't be that much of a stretch to see a similarity across scales between an individual and a society. Given that its perhaps less difficult to see how one society might come to feel it's being marginalized and bullied by another and act as one might suppose, in a fashion similar to that of an individual.

Hopefully there's some utility to be realized by thinking or looking at it this way but its probably not for everyone. 

Not really. If that were the case, you'd have Israelis/Jews doing the same thing. Talk about a whole society being marginalized and discriminated against. And look no farther than our own indiginous people - but you don't see them shooting people up and down the street  Even the remnants of slavery in the US has not caused Blacks to regularly carry out such heinous acts. Islam is the common thread - and the "enabler" for these acts.

[OftenWrong]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

I think it might be geometry, specifically that of fractals.  it shouldn't be that much of a stretch to see a similarity across scales between an individual and a society. Given that its perhaps less difficult to see how one society might come to feel it's being marginalized and bullied by another and act as one might suppose, in a fashion similar to that of an individual.

Hopefully there's some utility to be realized by thinking or looking at it this way but its probably not for everyone. 

= "We deserve it"

[Michael Hardner]

53 minutes ago, Centerpiece said:

 Islam is the common thread - and the "enabler" for these acts.

No, we already know mental illness is the common thread.  

Let's stop pretending some kind of objective inquiry is finding Islam to be a problem, it's prejudice and nothing else.  We have had discussions like this on the board for years, and the best the blamers can do is come up with circular reasoning.  

It would be nice to have an objective inquiry as to the causes, but if we're still blaming groups (effectively because we don't like them) then we don't have a public base from which we can launch that inquiry.  If someone can suggest a way then I'm all for it.

[OftenWrong]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. we already know mental illness is the common thread.  

2. the best the blamers can do is come up with circular reasoning.  

3. It would be nice to have an objective inquiry as to the causes, but if we're still blaming groups (effectively because we don't like them) then we don't have a public base from which we can launch that inquiry.  If someone can suggest a way then I'm all for it.

1. And yet, there a plenty of people considered mentally ill that are not a threat to anyone, by far. Is this not the same error in determining causality?

2. And yet, all "blamers" need to do is wait for the next incident.

3. I think the causes are many-fold. Mental illness must certainly be a factor, in combination with other personality traits such as alienation and hostility. I doubt there is anything new going on that makes them flip out other than instantly accessible media. There is a desire to do something that gains lots of attention, and with today's technology that is assured to happen. Really, terrorism is a cry for help...

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

No, we already know mental illness is the common thread.  

Let's stop pretending some kind of objective inquiry is finding Islam to be a problem, it's prejudice and nothing else.  We have had discussions like this on the board for years, and the best the blamers can do is come up with circular reasoning.  

It would be nice to have an objective inquiry as to the causes, but if we're still blaming groups (effectively because we don't like them) then we don't have a public base from which we can launch that inquiry.  If someone can suggest a way then I'm all for it.

Islam is a religion, not a group.  The group would be those who use their religion to justify egregious acts, and I certainly don't like them.  The others I couldn't care less about.  As for this guy, who knows?

Are you of the opinion that Islam is just fine, in all of its manifestations?

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Centerpiece said:

Not really. If that were the case, you'd have Israelis/Jews doing the same thing. Talk about a whole society being marginalized and discriminated against. And look no farther than our own indiginous people - but you don't see them shooting people up and down the street  Even the remnants of slavery in the US has not caused Blacks to regularly carry out such heinous acts. Islam is the common thread - and the "enabler" for these acts.

 

Indeed...an inconvenient truth...and it is Muslims who suffer the most around the world from radical Islamic terrorism.  

 

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

1. And yet, there a plenty of people considered mentally ill that are not a threat to anyone, by far. Is this not the same error in determining causality?

2. And yet, all "blamers" need to do is wait for the next incident.

3. I doubt there is anything new going on that makes them flip out other than instantly accessible media.  

1. Not at all.  The cause of an accident can be a drunk driver but not all drunk drivers have accidents.

2. Right.

3. Why are you looking for something new ?  Mentally ill mass killings have been a thing for a long time.

[eyeball]

59 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

= "We deserve it"

Who's this 'we' you're talking about?  As I've been given to understand it Islam has been bullying the west for nearly 1400 years now.   

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

1. Islam is a religion, not a group.   

2. Are you of the opinion that Islam is just fine, in all of its manifestations?

1. Why can't it be both ?

2. I am not a religious person, but it can be a comfort for some people.  If you want to single out Islam from other religions, may I ask why ?

[Centerpiece]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

No, we already know mental illness is the common thread.  

Let's stop pretending some kind of objective inquiry is finding Islam to be a problem, it's prejudice and nothing else.  We have had discussions like this on the board for years, and the best the blamers can do is come up with circular reasoning.  

It would be nice to have an objective inquiry as to the causes, but if we're still blaming groups (effectively because we don't like them) then we don't have a public base from which we can launch that inquiry.  If someone can suggest a way then I'm all for it.

There's that pomposity again. I was responding to Eyeball's contention which went beyond our Danforth debacle and encircled the Muslim "society" as a whole. You're saying that the 911 gang, the Toronto 18, and all the countless "cells" that have been indiscriminately killing hordes of innocents throughout the world -  all are mentally ill - in the traditional sense? That's pretty far-fetched Michael - but if that's your thinking, I hope you find comfort in it.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Centerpiece

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Centerpiece said:

  You're saying that the 911 gang, the Toronto 18, and all the countless "cells" that have been indiscriminately killing hordes of innocents -  all are mentally ill - in the traditional sense?

No, I am not saying that at all.  Sorry for not following all of the interactions between you and eyeball.  I just respond to individuals posts I see.

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, Centerpiece said:

You're saying that the 911 gang, the Toronto 18, and all the countless "cells" that have been indiscriminately killing hordes of innocents throughout the world -  all are mentally ill - in the traditional sense?

So how do you explain what triggers them?  All are....what?  Religious in a traditional sense?  Why then don't we see other religions trying to establish their dominance...oh, wait a minute.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Why can't it be both ?

2. I am not a religious person, but it can be a comfort for some people.  If you want to single out Islam from other religions, may I ask why ?

Stereotyping?

You could, but I'm just about to hit the road.  I struggle with the notion that you don't already know.

 

[Centerpiece]

11 minutes ago, eyeball said:

So how do you explain what triggers them?  All are....what?  Religious in a traditional sense?  Why then don't we see other religions trying to establish their dominance...oh, wait a minute.

I wish I was smart enough to answer that - it would save the world a lot of speculation and heartache. I'm pretty sure that the term non-believer might have something to do with it.....but hey - the thread is drifting so let's keep on with evaluating the Faisal Hussain facts as they emerge.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Centerpiece

[OftenWrong]

32 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Why are you looking for something new ?  Mentally ill mass killings have been a thing for a long time.

Never said I was, but there might be an impression of it being a new thing. I'm trying to find reasons for it, and I believe that our modern media technology plays a role to inspire mass killers. That includes school shooters as well.

It is new in the sense that this is a "unified movement", inspired by ideology such as Al-Qaeda introduced, and made use of the internet as a tool for reaching out to the disaffected mentally unstable. Those men claimed it must be done in the name of Allah. It's a bit of a problem for Muslims, something like a gang culture. Really the most effective counter against it can come from Muslims themselves. These sort of acts need to be completely, and publicly disavowed. There's a perception that among certain groups, it is not. It doesn't help if those coming from the 'old country', who hold repugnant anti-semetic views and consider the west The Great Satan are allowed to preach to youth in Mosques.

Edited July 29, 2018 by OftenWrong

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Stereotyping?

You could, but I'm just about to hit the road.  I struggle with the notion that you don't already know.

 

The logic used to vilify Muslims is a logical construct that, when used objectively, could be used against any human grouping.  And it's circular logic.

"This group is observed to participate in certain behaviour, therefore the grouping itself is the cause of it."  If you ask for evidence, they go back to the observation.

It's a vain and self-serving exercise.

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

1. Never said I was, but there might be an impression of it being a new thing. I'm trying to find reasons for it, and I believe that our modern media technology plays a role to inspire mass killers. That includes school shooters as well.

2. It is new in the sense that this is a "unified movement", inspired by ideology such as Al-Qaeda introduced, and made use of the internet as a tool for reaching out to the disaffected mentally unstable. Those men claimed it must be done in the name of Allah. It's a bit of a problem for Muslims, something like a gang culture.

3. Really the most effective counter against it can come from Muslims themselves. These sort of acts need to be completely, and publicly disavowed. 

1. I thought so, because you said "I doubt there is anything new going on that makes them flip out other than instantly accessible media. ".  I agree about what you say regarding 'modern media technology', roughly.

2. Yes, I agree that that part is new.  

3. Well, they are disavowed but it doesn't prevent them either.  I think giving security services more power is a great idea, but I'm changing my mind on that too since we now see security being politicized more and more.

[capricorn]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

It would be nice to have an objective inquiry as to the causes, but if we're still blaming groups (effectively because we don't like them) then we don't have a public base from which we can launch that inquiry.  If someone can suggest a way then I'm all for it.

Well don't look to the Liberals to launch such an "objective" inquiry. They're much too afraid the results would put muslims in a bad light. I mean, think of all the lost votes.

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, capricorn said:

Well don't look to the Liberals to launch such an "objective" inquiry. They're much too afraid the results would put muslims in a bad light. I mean, think of all the lost votes.

Well, you missed the point that we're not ready to even start such a discussion.  Furthermore, you assume that the conclusion will blame Muslims so your post is a lost cause IMO.

[capricorn]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well, you missed the point that we're not ready to even start such a discussion.  Furthermore, you assume that the conclusion will blame Muslims so your post is a lost cause IMO.

Well, you missed my point. Under the Liberals there would not be an "objective" inquiry therefore there would be no conclusion.

[Michael Hardner]

17 minutes ago, capricorn said:

Well, you missed my point. Under the Liberals there would not be an "objective" inquiry therefore there would be no conclusion.

I thought your point was the reason *why* the Liberals wouldn't do it.  I agree that there wouldn't be such an inquiry.  The Conservatives would similarly never agree to such an inquiry.

[scribblet]

One paper at least isn't afraid to question the liberal narrative

"The source said the feds, police chief and others have been 'playing with words' and 'deceiving the public.' 'It's all political'." Toronto Sun police reporter Chris Doucette on what we know, and don't know, about Faisal Hussain's twisted trail of death:  https://t.co/ODPRacdwL9

 

And Rex Murphy nails it again.. will post when I find the link.  Hate using a tablet

[turningrite]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Never said I was, but there might be an impression of it being a new thing. I'm trying to find reasons for it, and I believe that our modern media technology plays a role to inspire mass killers. That includes school shooters as well.

It is new in the sense that this is a "unified movement", inspired by ideology such as Al-Qaeda introduced, and made use of the internet as a tool for reaching out to the disaffected mentally unstable. Those men claimed it must be done in the name of Allah. It's a bit of a problem for Muslims, something like a gang culture. Really the most effective counter against it can come from Muslims themselves. These sort of acts need to be completely, and publicly disavowed. There's a perception that among certain groups, it is not. It doesn't help if those coming from the 'old country', who hold repugnant anti-semetic views and consider the west The Great Satan are allowed to preach to youth in Mosques.

The main problem right now is that we have heard no comprehensive report from officials about the investigation into the shooter's background and motives or about any other factors that might apply. Pretty much every theory remains conjecture at this point and we're left with a speculative narrative on mental illness that was generated at the outset, offset by dribbles of leaks, presumably from inside the investigation, that appear to have been plugged over the past couple days. I can't think of any situation that's been handled in this manner by authorities and the media, which in the latter case you'd imagine would in a democracy be clamoring for details. A good friend of mine said the other day that he's increasingly convinced that for some reason the authorities want the whole thing to just disappear into the mists of history, possibly due to the fact that a security failure might be exposed were the public to know more. That's as solid a theory as any other we've heard, right?

[Michael Hardner]

5 minutes ago, turningrite said:

1. The main problem right now is that we have heard no comprehensive report from officials about the investigation into the shooter's background and motives or about any other factors that might apply. Pretty much every theory remains conjecture at this point and we're left with a speculative narrative on mental illness that was generated at the outset, offset by dribbles of leaks, presumably from inside the investigation, that appear to have been plugged over the past couple days.

2. I can't think of any situation that's been handled in this manner by authorities and the media, which in the latter case you'd imagine would in a democracy be clamoring for details.

3. A good friend of mine said the other day that he's increasingly convinced that for some reason the authorities want the whole thing to just disappear into the mists of history, possibly due to the fact that a security failure might be exposed were the public to know more. That's as solid a theory as any other we've heard, right?

1. So is conjecture a problem ?  If so, then don't engage in it.  I have seen reports by people outside the investigation that he was mentally ill.

2. 9/11 had the exact same complaints.  "Why was the steel from the WTC spirited away before it could properly be analyzed ?" was one question i saw a lot.  Officials, of course, can't anticipate what cover-ups will be suspected in the future nor should they.

3. Well, going back to 9/11, there were a lot of things kept quiet for security reasons as well as to cover up errors I'm sure.  Those are the same thing, to a degree.  You don't want to the enemies your weak spots, even after you ostensibly repair them.  I heard tapes of air traffic control and it was pretty chaotic stuff, but it got out.