The Helsinki debacle

[Argus]

1 hour ago, paxrom said:

Actually yes, the tax cut helps spending, along with reduce tax rates to do business. Actually if you think about it, gdp growth solves a lot of problem. yes tax cut hurt in the short run but with increased labor and people entering the work place you get more tax revenue. Growth reduces deficit. 

Yeah, yeah, trickle down economics. Reagan tried it. Only problem with that theory is it failed UTTERLY. The money didn't trickle down, the economy wasn't affected much because, like now, the big corporate recipients are using most of that money on stock buybacks and special dividends, not to expand, and the tax cuts pushed the US deep into debt then, and will push it deeper now. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by Argus

[paxamericana]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Yeah, yeah, trickle down economics. Reagan tried it. Only problem with that theory is it failed UTTERLY. The money didn't trickle down, the economy wasn't affected much because, like now, the big corporate recipients are using most of that money on stock buybacks and special dividends, not to expand, and the tax cuts pushed the US deep into debt then, and will push it deeper now. 

It failed because that money was being sapped off oversea with multinational corporation globalist agenda, specifically china. If you keep those capital back home and reinvest in your infrastructure and neighborhoods with local investment capital then that's when you will see the real gain of trickle down economics. You need to adopt economic nationalism for trickle down economics to work. Reagan didn't do that he adopted trickle down economic but allowed the banker elites to finance china's growth. 

[paxamericana]

9 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

The best president the US never had, Hillary Clinton, explained it all during the debates: "Putin would rather have a puppet [Trump] win the election".  In the end, the US's need for entertainment, and reality TV has Trumped their need for economic and military security.

Actually, this is a typical misperception of Trump. He's not pro Russia. He's reaching out to Russia to reduce tension ending the cold war with Russia, on our terms. The reason he's doing this is to unite Russia with Europe and the West for a real fight with China. You should look at Steve Bannon on his economic nationalism policies. It explains Trump's over all goals. There are real, difficult differences with Russia but they are trying to diffuse tension to get a working relationship with Russia against China. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by paxrom

[bush_cheney2004]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

Hopefully they'll start coming up with one soon enough - the ugliest face of America is a capricious one and Trump reflects it in a manner that should give pause to re-consider.  We've seen it before however to little effect and that's probably why a fairly sizable number of America's allies citizens worry so much...fingers crossed though.

 

Trump has only pointed out the obvious in undiplomatic ways....Europe and Canada have a much larger population than the USA but still expect the Americans to pay more to protect them from Putin/Russia.    I guess worrying so much is a lot cheaper than funding defence.

[eyeball]

52 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Trump has only pointed out the obvious in undiplomatic ways....Europe and Canada have a much larger population than the USA but still expect the Americans to pay more to protect them from Putin/Russia.    I guess worrying so much is a lot cheaper than funding defence.

Fricken right it's cheaper.  What Americans don't pause to consider is how little activism it takes in your allies countries to push politicians in a direction they want to go. They may cringe a little in public but they have such little pride sucking that up comes easy.  In any case they can always blame our inaction on us lefties - thank you, thank you very much.

Trump provides an even better reason to ignore American fear of Russians, especially given the nature of the fear that has Trump peeing all over himself instead of, you know.  

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, paxrom said:

1) Actually, this is a typical misperception of Trump. He's not pro Russia. He's reaching out to Russia to reduce tension ending the cold war with Russia, on our terms.

2)  It explains Trump's over all goals.  

1) It's speculative to assume he has a plan, or goals, or strategy.  Given the way he explains himself and his complete ineptitude in terms of communicating and rallying his allies, it seems like a longshot that there is some deep thinking happening.

2) See 1)  

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) It's speculative to assume he has a plan, or goals, or strategy.  Given the way he explains himself and his complete ineptitude in terms of communicating and rallying his allies, it seems like a longshot that there is some deep thinking happening.

 

...and yet, Trump still matters much more than Trudeau and Trudeau's feeble attempts to do likewise.

[Michael Hardner]

15 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

..and yet, Trump still matters much more than Trudeau and Trudeau's feeble attempts to do likewise.

Yes, this absolute failure and laughing stock unfortunately matters much more than Canada I concur.  Only something as big as America could fail on this scale, I can't argue.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Yes, this absolute failure and laughing stock unfortunately matters much more than Canada I concur.  Only something as big as America could fail on this scale, I can't argue.

 

So when will Trudeau have his own Helsinki ?    Would anybody care ?

[OftenWrong]

Astonishing how many people criticise Trump because he had a meeting with Putin and sought to improve relations, commit in principle to collaborate on security and seek better economic relationships, rather than oppose and threaten. The same outrage came from the left when Trump sought to meet Kim Jong Un and did likewise, to offer a possible way out of conflict and to improve relations. Perhaps people would rather have open conflict and war.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

Astonishing how many people criticise Trump because he had a meeting with Putin and sought to improve relations, commit in principle to collaborate on security and seek better economic relationships, rather than oppose and threaten. The same outrage came from the left when Trump sought to meet Kim Jong Un and did likewise, to offer a possible way out of conflict and to improve relations. Perhaps people would rather have open conflict and war.

 

Agreed...some would rather stay in the "post WW2 order" that they also whined about because it is more familiar than something different.

Hating 'murica's past policies while still loving them compared to Trump is what they cling to.  

 

 

[taxme]

On 7/17/2018 at 7:49 AM, turningrite said:

I'm referencing the U.S. news coverage over the past 24 hours, where descriptions like "disaster", "capitulation" and even "treason" have been commonplace. Trump's Helsinki performance has even been panned on Fox News. The breadth of the negative coverage suggests a pretty resounding condemnation, if you ask me.

Trump did not really do or say anything at all that should get all those lefty liberal/democrats out there all going bonkers. The RINO's hate Russia just as much as the democrats do and they all want to start up another cold war with Russia. Hillary would probably have a war going right now if she were president. Isn't it better to talk to Putin rather than face him on the battlefield?  That is what Trump is trying to do. Avoid war with Russia. 

It's funny how the lying and fake liberal media hate Russia today but during Obama's presidency and Hillary's involvement herself in the Russian uranium deal there was no big deal back then. Russia was America's friend. But now that Trump is president and trying to make peace with Russia all those liberal/democrat snowflake losers out there start crying "treason" and now hate Russia. Typical liberalism. The sky is blue today and tomorrow it will be look aqua. Liberals are such a bunch of confused wishy-washys. Deplorable. 

Anytime Trump says or does anything it will always receive bad and terrible negative coverage from the lying and fake liberal lame duck media that has only one thing on their mind, and that is to get Trump, no matter what. But it sure looks like people like yourself think that we are now nearing the end of humanity because of Trump. Geez, wasn't it all about immigration last week and the week before about Stormy the hooker? And now this week it is all about Russia and Putin. I wonder what will be the next negative news story that will make headlines next week about Trump? It never ends with these crybaby liberal election losers. 

When will the stunned people out there ever get it that what is going on here is just more Trump bashing by the crybaby losers of an election. Trump is doing more for America and Americans than the last four Presidents ever did. But the lying left wing liberal media will never willing report any of the good things that Trump has done since he became President. Trump gave Putin nothing in their meeting. Sanctions are still in place against Russia. No Russian embassy in Washington. It amazes me as to how so many people can get all riled up and go bonkers by the fake and phony left wing media. They are playing you all for a bunch of patsies and you are eating it up. Enjoy your morning bowl of political bull chit. Yummy. 

But if people like you are so concerned about Trump being president, I suggest to you that you go to your nearest survival store and start buying survival equipment and get prepared for the end of humanity to begin, thanks to Trump. Some people make me laugh a lot. Chuckle-chuckle. 

[paxamericana]

46 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) It's speculative to assume he has a plan, or goals, or strategy.  Given the way he explains himself and his complete ineptitude in terms of communicating and rallying his allies, it seems like a longshot that there is some deep thinking happening.

2) See 1)  

Trump's is POTUS, potus has access to vast swathe of brain power. I'm not saying Trump has said brain capacity but the people working for him definitely do. I've only recently figured out Trump's playbook and are still finalizing my understanding of the details. I suggest looking up, peter navaro, larry kudlow, Steve Bannon, Jim mattis. These people are some of the most influential people on Trump. They will guide you through the haze of trump. 

I believe Trump is a economic nationalist and populist. Those people all align on the issue of China. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by paxrom

[taxme]

8 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Astonishing how many people criticise Trump because he had a meeting with Putin and sought to improve relations, commit in principle to collaborate on security and seek better economic relationships, rather than oppose and threaten. The same outrage came from the left when Trump sought to meet Kim Jong Un and did likewise, to offer a possible way out of conflict and to improve relations. Perhaps people would rather have open conflict and war.

There have been plenty of world leaders that have visited and spoke with Putin. There is nothing wrong with that. Trump went to China to meet with the communist leader there and the lying left wing liberal press made no stink about it. Yet Mao murdered millions of his own people. No big deal to the left wing liberal media. Probably because the left wing media is a communist outfit and supporter. So what is with this Trump/Putin meeting that seems to have got everyone all up in an uproar? Trump went there to talk, not start up a war. 

After WW2 was over President FDR handed over half of Europe to the Russians and because of that millions of innocent people became slaves of communism and tens of millions of innocent Russians were murdered by communist Stalin. Putin comes nowhere near that butcher and murderer communist Stalin. Russian people are free today more than ever since communism was eliminated. I have no fear of Putin at all. I fear China, North Korea, zionists, Antifa and liberals. They are the ones to fear, not Putin or Trump. 

[OftenWrong]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Agreed...some would rather stay in the "post WW2 order" that they also whined about because it is more familiar than something different.

Hating 'murica's past policies while still loving them compared to Trump is what they cling to.  

 

 

Trump has stated his priorities clearly, if you can hear him through all the damned noise.

Trump gave a statement to cameras from the White House Tuesday in which he outlined in general terms some of his discussion with Putin.-

The two men discussed "the range of issues," Trump said, "starting with the civil war in Syria and the need for humanitarian aid and help for people in Syria." They also discussed the need to halt Iran's nuclear ambitions "and the destabilizing activities taking place in Iran," as well as Israel's security, North Korea and "the reduction of nuclear weapons throughout the world," Trump said.

Link

But hey, the guy is a "megalomaniac who wants to hand the world over to Putin"., next Hitler, etc. coming from people who are having an emotional fit. Yet can't stop talking about Trump. Turn on the news, Trump, Trump, Trump. Your opinion, my opinion about Trump. And yet what they talk about is really - nothing!

Still waiting for world war 3 to break out, let me know when. Trump is nearly two years in, didn't Obama already attack somebody by then? With his Nobel prize tucked away in the bottom drawer of the Oval office, so he didn't have to look at it.

[taxme]

46 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

So when will Trudeau have his own Helsinki ?    Would anybody care ?

So, I wonder if our dear leader Trudeau did go to Russia to meet Putin will our liberal left wing media call him a traitor? Interesting question. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by taxme

[taxme]

13 minutes ago, paxrom said:

Trump's is POTUS, potus has access to vast swathe of brain power. I'm not saying Trump has said brain capacity but the people working for him definitely do. I've only recently figured out Trump's playbook and are still finalizing my understanding of the details. I suggest looking up, peter navaro, larry kudlow, Steve Bannon, Jim mattis. These people are some of the most influential people on Trump. They will guide you through the haze of trump. 

I believe Trump is a economic nationalist and populist. Those people all align on the issue of China. 

It is for sure that Trump is a pro American nationalist. Aren't you?

Those people you mentioned would no doubt be trying to align me with more Trump bashing and hatred towards and about Trump. Hey, if you do not like the boss and won't follow his orders than they deserve to be "FIRED". 

[paxamericana]

1 minute ago, taxme said:

It is for sure that Trump is a pro American nationalist. Aren't you?

Those people you mentioned would no doubt be trying to align me with more Trump bashing and hatred towards and about Trump. Hey, if you do not like the boss and won't follow his orders than they deserve to be "FIRED". 

Yes but what flavor of nationalism is the question Michael was asking. Economic Nationalist best describe the Trump agenda.

I'm pro American anything, american rocks, air, toilet paper, what ever. 

[Argus]

3 hours ago, paxrom said:

It failed because that money was being sapped off oversea with multinational corporation globalist agenda, specifically china. If you keep those capital back home and reinvest in your infrastructure and neighborhoods with local investment capital then that's when you will see the real gain of trickle down economics. You need to adopt economic nationalism for trickle down economics to work. Reagan didn't do that he adopted trickle down economic but allowed the banker elites to finance china's growth. 

I don't know about you but I'm heavily invested in the stock market, including a lot of US companies. I can tell you that most of the money they're saving in the tax cuts are going to dividends and stock buybacks. Most of the tax cuts that went to the rich (who got the vast majority of the money, then and now) goes into more stocks and bonds, not into buying consumer goods. This is well known. If you want to spur the economy you tailor your tax cuts to the lower middle class and middle class. But that didn't happen, then or now. And, in fact, the personal tax cuts are going to expire after the next election anyway.

As for economic nationalism. You do it, and everyone else will do it. I don't know how old you are, but when I was younger, I remember us renting our very first window air conditioner for the summer. It was expensive, but we were glad to have it! Buying one was, of course, out of the question for us. Now they cost a hundred bucks. Yeah, they're made overseas, but they cost a hundred bucks! Almost anyone can afford one! You want to have it solely built in the US? Gonna double or triple the price, especially with all those high tariffs on steel and aluminum. Want to have Iphones only built in the US? Fine. It'll cost you twenty five hundred bucks a phone. Oh, and most of the better paying jobs aren't in manufacturing for the iPhone. Since you won't be able to sell Iphones in any other country, many of those jobs will disappear - in favor of minimum wage manufacturing. Not a great idea. Like those ten dollar shirts at Wal-mart? They're twenty five now, or thirty. But hey, you got lots of minimum wage garment worker jobs back! Of course, it's gonna cost you a lot of those very high paying jobs in software and computer services that the US supplies to other countries all over the world, though, since other countries will insist that work by their own country's employees.

Hey, Canada is just taking delivery of the first of the big new military helicopters from Sikorsky. Lot of jobs at Sikorsky because of that. Later we'll be buying fighter jets. That's more jobs. Oh sure, they'll mostly be manufactured here, but a ton of the parts, not to mention the expertise and services, will be American. We're laying down the keels for new patrol ships, for the navy too. A lot of the steel comes from a plant in Georgia. No more of that! 

Economic nationalism makes no damn sense. It shoots the price up for everything, and it forces every country to do everything themselves, instead of specializing in the kinds of jobs they do best. And why the hell are you even trying? You're almost at full employment now. Business is booming. Corporate profits are at record levels. You want to risk tossing that all in the shitter for why exactly?

Edited July 19, 2018 by Argus

[Argus]

3 hours ago, paxrom said:

Actually, this is a typical misperception of Trump. He's not pro Russia. He's reaching out to Russia to reduce tension ending the cold war with Russia, on our terms. 

But the tensions are caused by Russian aggression in Europe, not to mention everywhere else. Under Putin, Russian bombers are again taunting and testing western air defenses from Canada and Alaska to Sweden and the UK. And what exactly are your terms? Because if I listen to Trump your terms are "Do whatever you want, wherever you want, including messing with our elections, and in response, we promise not to say anything bad about you."

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

Economic nationalism makes no damn sense.

 

Especially for Canada, which is not only very dependent on the U.S. export market, but also American foreign direct investment.

Americans own 50% of Canada's manufacturing base, and a good portion of oil/bitumen production (70% foreign owned).

It is little wonder that Trump and economic nationalists scare Canada to death.....Greyhound Canada (UK owned) just abandoned western Canada as a losing business.

[Argus]

How did you get out of my ignore file, troll? Back in you go.

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Under Putin, Russian bombers are again taunting and testing western air defenses from Canada and Alaska to Sweden and the UK. And what exactly are your terms? Because if I listen to Trump your terms are "Do whatever you want, wherever you want, including messing with our elections, and in response, we promise not to say anything bad about you."

Russian aggressive behaviour in the arctic started long before Trump. Under Obama, they dropped a Russian flag under the water at the north pole, if I recall.
Trump has already been far harsher toward Russians than Obama in his brief time as president:

The Trump administration has levied tough sanctions on Russia. Also, President Trump’s public lecture about Germany not buying natural gas from Russia was aimed at cutting Putin off from hard currency worth tens of billions of dollars and further weakening the Russian economy. Furthermore, President Trump’s efforts to get our European allies to increase their defense spending has a direct impact on Putin. The stronger NATO is, the less maneuvering room Russia has.

Beyond pressuring our allies, consider these specific steps President Trump has taken against Russia:
- Where President Obama refused to provide serious weapons to the Ukrainians to help them defend themselves (his response was weakness on a pathetic scale), President Trump has approved the sale of offensive weapons to enable the Ukrainians to increase the cost of Russian aggression.
- When the Russians used chemical weapons in Great Britain, President Trump joined our allies and expelled 60 Russian intelligence officers from the United States.
- When the Russians retaliated, the Trump administration closed the Russian consulate in Seattle. President Trump had previously shuttered the Russian consulate in San Francisco and smaller annexes in Washington and New York.
- More than 100 Russian individuals and companies have been sanctioned for a variety of reasons.

Despite the hysteria of the left, it is impossible to see the Trump administration as anything but firm in its dealing with Russia.
Newt Gingrich, 2018/07/18

[Argus]

49 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Russian aggressive behaviour in the arctic started long before Trump. Under Obama, they dropped a Russian flag under the water at the north pole, if I recall.
Trump has already been far harsher toward Russians than Obama in his brief time as president:

If you ever come across me saying anything good about Obama's foreign policy, please let me know, because I can't recall ever being that drunk. As for Trump being 'tougher' on Russia, please, give me a damn break.

Quote

The Trump administration has levied tough sanctions on Russia.

More specifically, Congress levied sanctions by an almost unanimous vote, against Trump's wishes, and the White House ignored the bill as long as they could before finally, grudgingly, applying some of them.

Quote

Also, President Trump’s public lecture about Germany not buying natural gas from Russia was aimed at cutting Putin off from hard currency worth tens of billions of dollars and further weakening the Russian economy.

BS. It was aimed at shaming Merkel because Germany wasn't paying enough for its military. People with natural gas can always find customers somewhere.

Quote

 

Furthermore, President Trump’s efforts to get our European allies to increase their defense spending has a direct impact on Putin. The stronger NATO is, the less maneuvering room Russia has.

And he's had very little success, and the only way it has a 'direct impact' on Putin is if Putin invades Western Europe.

Quote

Beyond pressuring our allies, consider these specific steps President Trump has taken against Russia:

- Where President Obama refused to provide serious weapons to the Ukrainians to help them defend themselves (his response was weakness on a pathetic scale), President Trump has approved the sale of offensive weapons to enable the Ukrainians to increase the cost of Russian aggression.
- When the Russians used chemical weapons in Great Britain, President Trump joined our allies and expelled 60 Russian intelligence officers from the United States.
- When the Russians retaliated, the Trump administration closed the Russian consulate in Seattle. President Trump had previously shuttered the Russian consulate in San Francisco and smaller annexes in Washington and New York.
- More than 100 Russian individuals and companies have been sanctioned for a variety of reasons.

Despite the hysteria of the left, it is impossible to see the Trump administration as anything but firm in its dealing with Russia.
Newt Gingrich, 2018/07/18

I don't see Obama failing to do join the UK and its allies in expelling Russians. And most of those sanctions were either on before Trump got into power (he actually talked about removing them) or were levied by Congress. The only thing the Trump admin has done is provide some weapons to Ukraine (too late) and close a consulate, which I will give them credit for.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Argus

[paxamericana]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

Economic nationalism makes no damn sense. It shoots the price up for everything, and it forces every country to do everything themselves, instead of specializing in the kinds of jobs they do best. And why the hell are you even trying? You're almost at full employment now. Business is booming. Corporate profits are at record levels. You want to risk tossing that all in the shitter for why exactly?

Yes some manufactured good prices will go up but so will wages and jobs. Remember that America is not a heavy manufacturing economy, we are a service based industry which is where everyone is heading. So if anything Economic nationalism serves us just fine because it rewards non trade-able sector such as service at the expense of trad-able sector such as manufacturing.  In the future, everything manufactured will be automated so those jobs aren't coming back with large amounts of human labor its coming back in the form of services, particularly STEM innovation. The crown jewel of America. Remember America economic backbone is innovation.

   Also Argus, Canada is already receiving massive benefits to the economic nationalism, there's a reason why silicone valley is investing heavily in Canada we are pushing all the foreign worker there.  This is where we are dumping all the foreign worker ;P.

Edited July 19, 2018 by paxrom