Mohammad bin Salman

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

The US fears the freedom of people in many countries to be in control of their own governments. Its no surprise so many feel they have no choice but to resort to terrorism.

But there have been success stories that the US supports, such as Jordan.

[Rue]

20 hours ago, eyeball said:

The US fears the freedom of people in many countries to be in control of their own governments. Its no surprise so many feel they have no choice but to resort to terrorism.

1. Governments distrust other governments. That is not specific to the US government neither is terrorism caused solely by a reaction to US foreign policy. 

2. Your comments also fail to differentiate between Americans and  specific American government foreign policy.

3. It's no surprise you engage in such simplistic attempts to blame Americans for terrorism.

4. Terrorism is not a phenomena caused by people simply to rid themselves of Americans fear of freedom. Get out of mama's basement and find out why.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Rue

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, GostHacked said:

There is more evidence here that the Saudi's killed this reporter than evidence to support Trump's alleged collusion with Russia.

 

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Why is this even up for debate anymore?  The CIA concluded that the Saudi prince ordered the murder.  

I read it differently. I read that the CIA said they had no hard evidence, but that most likely MBS would have been involved. Because in the Saudi regime, nothing gets done without being sanctioned by MSB. Else, off goes your head. As well as your brother's head, wife, sister, cousin's...

No one over there said a damned thing, or else, so CIA's evidence was fairly circumstantial. The best they could conclude was that MBS most likely approved the execution.But that is all. So what would you like Donald Trump to do about it, start a war? One guy killed.

Trump already imposed sanctions of some sort because of this. Anyone else impose sanctions? I googled for it, couldn't find much. What's Canada doing about it? Where's Trudeau on this?

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Canada+sanctions+saudi+arabia

CBC- Christie Freeland 'mum' on why Canada has not imposed sanctions on Saudi Arabia. That's nice. Maybe her kid can make her another T-Shirt.

"Not Enough Cash-oggi"

https://www.google.ca/search?q=turkey+sanctions+saudi+arabia

Turks are full of bull crap, as usual...

https://www.google.ca/search?q=EU+sanctions+saudi+arabia

Euro-pansies, nowhere to be seen. They have their own problems now, I guess.

[eyeball]

48 minutes ago, Rue said:

1. Governments distrust other governments. 

Of course they do but the issue is fear. The US government's record of interference in other democracies clearly proves they are afraid of people they don't like controlling governments they do like.

Quote

2. Your comments also fail to differentiate between Americans and  specific American government foreign

Please complete your sentence.

Quote

3. It's no surprise you engage in such simplistic attempts to blame Americans for terrorism.

Americans are responsible for their governments actions and as such should bear the consequences when they don't pat attention to what its doing..

Quote

 

4. Terrorism is not a phenomena caused by people simply to rid themselves of Americans fear of freedom.

 

No, its to rid themselves of America's government's interference. The fear is...never mind.

[eyeball]

3 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

What's Canada doing about it?

Virtue signalling.  

Quote

Where's Trudeau on this?

In London Ontario defending a LAV plant.

Somehow I doubt you're suggesting he follow Germany's example and stop selling LAV's to Saudi Arabia.

[bush_cheney2004]

42 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Of course they do but the issue is fear. The US government's record of interference in other democracies clearly proves they are afraid of people they don't like controlling governments they do like.

 

Do you mean like Canada in Haiti ?

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Do you mean like Canada in Haiti ?

No I don't.  

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

No I don't.  

 

Just wanted to check....keep building LAVs for the Saudis too...because economics trumps virtue.

[GostHacked]

18 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Why is this even up for debate anymore?  The CIA concluded that the Saudi prince ordered the murder.  

The debate is now why does the USA deal with known terrorists? Now one can conclude that the Saudis are the real problem in Syria AND Yemen, backed by the USA arming rebel groups.

This kind of support from the USA is a direct affront to all those who died in the attacks on Sept 11 2001.

[Rue]

18 hours ago, eyeball said:

Of course they do but the issue is fear. The US government's record of interference in other democracies clearly proves they are afraid of people they don't like controlling governments they do like.

Please complete your sentence.

Americans are responsible for their governments actions and as such should bear the consequences when they don't pat attention to what its doing..

No, its to rid themselves of America's government's interference. The fear is...never mind.

In regards to your first comment-all countries have foreign policies that  reflect whether their best interests conflict  with or complement with  other countries' interests.  Your comment the US interferes with other democracies because it is afraid of people is simplistic and silly. If the US and all other nations interfere as you refer to it, it is most likely because of reasons tied to protecting US financial interests. This is the same thing with all other nations. Your depiction infers the US is the only one that does this. Countries try control political decisions in other countries. They can do so through their government or privately. They use all kinds of methods from legitimate negotiation and trade deals to  bribery and war. What is your point?  The entire world has operated like this for thousands of years and you depict it as some evil American conspiracy caused by ALL Americans being afraid of people being free. Tell me in your analysis do you ever discuss whether the Russian or Chinese government fear their own people let alone their colony nations speaking freely? How about Iran? Have you discussed why it finances terrorism globally and internally , precisely because it does not want people to speak or think freely ? Do you think Turkey and Iran give a flying phack about the freedom of their own citizens let alone  Kurds?  How about Assad? You think he is afraid of democracy? You seem selective in what you notice and which countries you demonize.

Even if Americans are responsible for their government's actions does that give you the right to assign moral blame to all of them? You came on this forum and said it is unfair to blame all Muslims for the actions of Muslim terrorists. Now using your analogy if all Americans are morally to blame for US foreign policy, then should we blame all Muslims for the policies of Muslim terrorists? How about  you finish that sentence.

Making a blanket statement that terrorism is simply to get rid of American government interference is illogical. Chechnyan terrorists are engaged against Russia not the US. Kurd Terrorists are engaged against the current Turkish and Iranian regimes as are legitimate Kurds. Turkey and Iran engage in state genocide and terrorism against Kurds and that has nothing to do with the US.

Hezbollah terrorism against Lebanese citizens or Syrian citizens has nothing to do with the US and everything to do with it fearing  Sunni Muslims or Christians.

Sudan terrorizes Southern Sudan attacking its Christians and engaging in s state terrorism against them. That is not a reaction to Amerian interference-Cina controls its economy. The Muslim terrorist attaks on Christian Nigerians by Boca Raton is not in response to US interference.

There are thousands of terror cells attacking innocent civilians for many complex reasons some dating back thousands of years and are  a continuation of violence that arose long before the US was created

For you to try provide a simplistic formula describing terrorism as a response to US interference is illogical not to mention simplistic to the extreme.

Your reference to all Americans being responsible for their foreign policy is an attempt to stereotype all Americans with negative traits. It is the reasoning process of a bigot.

Using your reasoning every leftist thinks like you and Is therefore morally culpable for your thoughts. Lol let's round you all up then and ship you to a democracy that does not fear the US,  i.e., the People's Democratic Republic of North Korea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Rue

[Rue]

2 hours ago, GostHacked said:

The debate is now why does the USA deal with known terrorists? Now one can conclude that the Saudis are the real problem in Syria AND Yemen, backed by the USA arming rebel groups.

This kind of support from the USA is a direct affront to all those who died in the attacks on Sept 11 2001.

Why does your depiction blame the Yemen civil war on the US and ignore the role of Saudi Arabia and Iran?

Why does your depiction ignore the role of Yemenite Shiites and Sunnis who have been at war with each other long before the US was created?

Why does your depiction ignore the role Russia and China play in enabling Yemeni Shiites to be financed by Iran to engage in war against Sunni Yemenites?

Why do you never acknowledge both sides of a conflict and like Eye try spew out pat anti American, blame it on the US answers?

Here let me answer that...

because you are a bigot and find being prejudice acceptable as long as you engage in it and no one else.

 

 

 

 

[GostHacked]

5 minutes ago, Rue said:

I

Look I could  lump you and Ghost and Taxme  in the same category if you want but I don't think that too fair. I like to think some of your ideas are different even though you agree on one central reoccurring theme.

What do you mean could? You only take this route after many of us called you out on that because you lump all of us in the same category.

[GostHacked]

3 minutes ago, Rue said:

Why does your depiction blame the Yemen civil war on the US and ignore the role of Saudi Arabia and Iran?

Why does your depiction ignore the role of Yemenite Shiites and Sunnis who have been at war with each other long before the US was created?

Why does your depiction ignore the role Russia and China play in enabling Yemeni Shiites to be financed by Iran to engage in war against Sunni Yemenites?

Why do you never acknowledge both sides of a conflict and like Eye try spew out pat anti American, blame it on the US answers?

Here let me answer that...

because you are a bigot and find being prejudice acceptable as long as you engage in it and no one else.

Why do you ignore the USA supporting terrorism via Saudi Arabia?

[Zeitgeist]

18 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

 

I read it differently. I read that the CIA said they had no hard evidence, but that most likely MBS would have been involved. Because in the Saudi regime, nothing gets done without being sanctioned by MSB. Else, off goes your head. As well as your brother's head, wife, sister, cousin's...

No one over there said a damned thing, or else, so CIA's evidence was fairly circumstantial. The best they could conclude was that MBS most likely approved the execution.But that is all. So what would you like Donald Trump to do about it, start a war? One guy killed.

Trump already imposed sanctions of some sort because of this. Anyone else impose sanctions? I googled for it, couldn't find much. What's Canada doing about it? Where's Trudeau on this?

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Canada+sanctions+saudi+arabia

CBC- Christie Freeland 'mum' on why Canada has not imposed sanctions on Saudi Arabia. That's nice. Maybe her kid can make her another T-Shirt.

"Not Enough Cash-oggi"

https://www.google.ca/search?q=turkey+sanctions+saudi+arabia

Turks are full of bull crap, as usual...

https://www.google.ca/search?q=EU+sanctions+saudi+arabia

Euro-pansies, nowhere to be seen. They have their own problems now, I guess.

Canadian leaders are constantly being told not to speak out on human rights.  We saw how little the Americans and the EU backed us last summer.  I agree that Canada should take action, but I also know we'll be criticized for it. 

[Rue]

10 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Why do you ignore the USA supporting terrorism via Saudi Arabia?

I do not and have never on this forum or any forum ignored or fail to criticize the nation of Saudi Arabia being along with Iran the two leading financiers of world terror.

I have written many responses criticizing the duplicity of Saudi Arabian foreign policy and how it tries to pay off terrorists from attacking it.

I have openly challenged the Obama regime, Turkey and Morsi when he was leader of Egypt forming a Muslim Brotherhood alliance that along with Saudi Arabia crated and financed ISIS.

I have openly challenged Saudi Arabia's treatment of women, gays, indentured workers it brings in from other nations.

I have openly challenged US policies that supported Gaddafi, Nasser, Samoza, Pinochet, Hussein, Morsi and other leaders.

I openly challenged the Bush regime for using a private army with financial ties to Dick Chaney, Donald Rumsfeld, and their Haliburton connection which spawned this use.

That is the difference between us.

If you want to find a post where I support Saudi Arabia please share.

As for my support of the US, like most genuine friends of the US I am not afraid to criticize its policies. I am not afraid of the US and having disagreements openly with Bush-Chaney. I don't think she fears me exercising my freedom of speech as Eye would suggest.

As for your bias and selectivity, your attempt to deflect from is weak. Why not wear your badge of leftist selectivity with honour rather than run from it? Me? I openly state I support the US as the largest democracy on the planet and being crucial to the existence of all democratic nations and keeping us safe from terrorism. No I do not like Trump, do I did not like Obama, yes I criticize many US policies on trade. So?

Lol.

 

 

 

[GostHacked]

7 minutes ago, Rue said:

As for your bias and selectivity, your attempt to deflect from is weak. Why not wear your badge of leftist selectivity with honour rather than run from it? Me? I openly state I support the US as the largest democracy on the planet and being crucial to the existence of all democratic nations and keeping us safe from terrorism. No I do not like Trump, do I did not like Obama, yes I criticize many US policies on trade. So?

How can you tell I am a lefty?  If you are tired of deflection, maybe don't project things on others you know you've already been taken to task for and you know to be incorrect.

 

[Rue]

46 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canadian leaders are constantly being told not to speak out on human rights.  We saw how little the Americans and the EU backed us last summer.  I agree that Canada should take action, but I also know we'll be criticized for it. 

Its naïve to think we will or can take action. Canada talks. It offers words. We have no other method to deal with human rights violations outside our nation. Sending troops to certain countries or aiding Kurds, are isolated feel good missions. I am not saying they aren't beneficial but I am saying they are exceptions to the rule and very problematic to engage in due to the limitations of our armed forces. The same leftists who want us to engage in human rights enforcement don't want us to  use our military to do so. They think we can prance into countruies and wear quaint costumes and dance and prance for the cameras and lecture others how to behave.

The reality is human rights are a collective rights concept created by affluent Westerners feeling guilty about their own affluence. These concepts are therefore ineffective and unrealistic and the product of sheltered, soft, guilt ridden individuals living in bubbles of reality far removed from the arena of conflict.

The bloody reality of enforcing human rights and the use of a gun, a drone aircraft, a well aimed missile is not for human rights activists brought up to believe everyone thinks and smells like they do.

Tell me how do you think human rights activists deal with corrupt governments?  Well they report their activities in bulletins and reports. Then what?

Human rights activism? What does it mean-feel good words or actual concrete immediate action that may even entail engaging in using a weapon?

You know what it means... it means the nightmare forced on Romeo Dallaires when he and his troops were told to stand down and simply watch as in front of their very eyes thousands were murdered because the UN said they were not allowed to enforce human rights.

The cold reality Is we criticize human rights activism at times because it is a farse. It demonizes legitimate military trying to enforce it and places terrorists on the same moral plane as legitimate military. It provides feel good babble exercises for guilt ridden Western politicians and sheltered feel good liberals who call terrorists freedom fighters.

In Gaza I watched terror cells recruit children. It wasn't about reacting to oppression or the US or even Israel. It was about drug dealing. It was about selling drugs and prostitution and using the cover of hating Israel to get this done. It had to do about killing Palestinians who chose to go into Israel to work and live peacefully with Israelis because when they did that they undermined the terrorist power base and need to depend on them.

Read the naïve crap on this board about how terrorism is simply some quaint freedon revolt against Yankee imperialists.

I saw the PA in action on the West Bank. Some were actually idealistic but they left because they were the first targeted for death by their own organization for not terrorizing. I know I worked with such people-their crime? They wanted to set up grass roots projects where Palestinians and Israelis worked together on the same water irrigation,  electricity, sewage and garbage recycling projects,. Had grass roots cooperation come to fruition with mutually beneficial interests, it would have made terrorists unecessary. It would have meant peace. Then what would people like Arafat have done? How could he justify his iron clad rule and corruption let alone existence?

Terrorism comes from people in the alleged oppressed classes taking advantage of the breakdown to consolidate their own power at the expense of their fellow citizens. It uses the cover of freedom and external enemy scapegoats to create itself.

Many Human rights activists don't get that. They live in sheltered environments brought up with quaint romantic notions like oppressor and down trodden and are blind to the fact that the worst oppressors come from within the very same society not someone outside that society..

Sure some human rights activists mean well. They give needles to drug addicts so they can get a clean injection but they don't deal with what happens when the needles are discarded and used again or the state of addicts in between shots. Their vision is selective to ease their conscience  not deal with the  continuing broader ugliness. I never met a human rights activist who gives out the needles sticking around to give mouth to mouth to some foaming over dosed bulgy eyed twitching lice infested individuals, they expect the paramedics and firefighters or nurses or doctors to do that.

Refugees? Yah I have been in some camps. Tell me...where are all the Muslim country human rights activists sponsorsing them to come to Muslim nations? You have any idea why Syria, Egypt,  Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Qatar, Lebanon , Bahrain, the UAE, Kuwait, never allowed and will never  Palestinians citizenship?

How is it Germany took in 3 million Muslim refugees and the Arab League of Nations instead chose to imprison Palestinians in refugee camps rather than take them in?

Ever hear a human rights activist ask Arab League nations why they never took in Palestinians or  help finance the camps they imprisoned them into?

Human rights has been compromised by political partisanship and bias. That is why it is criticized.

The UN has a Human Rights council full of nations violating basic human rights but pointing the finger at Israel or the US but never themselves and their own track records of injustice.

 

 

.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Rue

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, Rue said:

In regards to your first comment-all countries have foreign policies that  reflect whether their best interests conflict  with or complement with  other countries' interests. 

Its when so-called advanced civilized countries like our's act contrary to our stated principles that's at issue - when they abrogate our responsibility and obligations to human rights and war conventions. Its when we act like real pricks that's at issue.

I don't have the time of day for the rest of your regards.

[WestCanMan]

On 4/14/2018 at 2:48 AM, marcus said:

I don't fail to mention it. I have often mentioned Wahabism as being an ugly ideology as well. Both Zionism and Wahabism will trample over other people's human rights for their own selfish gains. One happens to have a much better PR team.

The question is, which one of these ugly ideologies do we support? Unfortunately, at the moment, Canada supports Zionism and very recently, they are supporting Saudi Arabia, through selling military vehicles. Saudi backs its crazy, uncontrollable dog, who creates chaos in the Middle East, ISIS. Not to mention Saudi's crimes against humanity in Yemen.

 

Zionism and Wahhabism are completely different.

To understand zionism, think about how badly muslims would want mecca back if it was taken over by a different culture/religion. Taking back what's actually yours, or something that you at least have some form of credible claim to, isn't as evil as killing people to take what's theirs by right. Zionism used to be really evil, when the land didn't actually belong to the Jews and they were committing war crimes and making deals with evil people to get it back. Zionism has changed into protecting the land that they have now which is far less "evil". It's actually "normal". Just like the Saudis would protect Mecca, and the actual families living in Saudi Arabia.

Wahhabism is entirely different. Think more along the lines of what "zionization" would mean. No other belief system, rules of law, or bills/charters of rights would be allowed to exist anywhere. Jewish law would control everything, everywhere around the world, on penalty of death and the enslavement of your children.

[Rue]

5 hours ago, GostHacked said:

What do you mean could? You only take this route after many of us called you out on that because you lump all of us in the same category.

If you mean anti American you bet. If you mean prejudice against Jews for believing they have a right to be Israeli and live in a Jewish state you bet. If the shoe fits why deny it...If you would like though I can call you any name you want. The point is your words define you on this forum not me.

[Rue]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

 

I don't have the time of day for the rest of your regards.

Of course YOU don't. That attitude where you expect people to agree with you but in the next breath show contempt for anyone you disagree with  evidences manifestation of elitist narcissistic unilateral pronouncements by you and shows contempt for anyone or thing that won't serve you.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Rue

[Rue]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Its when so-called advanced civilized countries like our's act contrary to our stated principles that's at issue - when they abrogate our responsibility and obligations to human rights and war conventions. Its when we act like real pricks that's at issue.

I don't have the time of day for the rest of your regards.

Bingo there it is. The double standard from the very person demonstrating contempt for the beliefs of others.

[GostHacked]

3 minutes ago, Rue said:

Bingo there it is. The double standard from the very person demonstrating contempt for the beliefs of others.

The double standards are from our very own government, when we support selling LAVs to Saudi Arabia. While 'condeming' journalists being killed, and not calling out the atrocities in Yemen that we are helping by selling said LAVs to known terrorists.

[Rue]

6 hours ago, GostHacked said:

The double standards are from our very own government, when we support selling LAVs to Saudi Arabia. While 'condeming' journalists being killed, and not calling out the atrocities in Yemen that we are helping by selling said LAVs to known terrorists.

Tell Justin then. Get on it.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Rue

[Rue]

11 hours ago, GostHacked said:

How can you tell I am a lefty?  

 

...the stain pattern.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Rue