Cum Laude Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 (edited) If someone breaks into your home, what measures can you use to protect your property and family? It's a frightening situation for the homeowner, especially when it occurs in the middle of the night. What happens if you live in a small community where police response time might be 30 minutes or longer? This situation has never happened to me and I hope it never has, but home invasions and break ins have occurred near me. What would you do if you had vulnerable, young children in your home? This isn't a left/right partisan issue. I will link a story from Maclean's. The article is one thing but the comments that follow delve into the debate of what a homeowner should and shouldn't be allowed to do. Please read the comments that follow to get many perspectives. http://www.macleans.ca/news/no-rural-prairie-dwellers-you-cant-shoot-to-protect-your-property/ Edited February 10, 2018 by Cum Laude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 "How Should to Home Invasion?" There isn't much to be said for a topic that doesn't start with the basic review of the OP. Sometimes I don't know what to post because I don't even understand what is being said. To answer the question: first, community, then literacy to imbue us with the wisdom of those we will never meet, then action to make our lives better. If people stopped adoring first responders and started asking them what they're doing for their 100 grand a year we might have a start. I had my van stolen and the police kept it for 3 days after they found it so they could charge US $250 storage fees. When I asked why they didn't contact us, the lady said with a straight face that the "crime lab was going over the van". We found a bag of weed in it that the thieves left. The police are pleading on social media that there aren't enough cops "on the beat", meanwhile they are beset with bad press these days, including cops getting stoned on the job, being assigned to guard broken water mains, unable to find dead bodies in buildings steps away from the last place where the victim was seen, uninterested in tracking serial killers, getting drunk while guarding dead bodies. Here's a story about dealing with the police in SF. https://amazingreveal.com/2018/02/10/san-francisco-business-owner-defies-police-to-get-his-van-back-is-taught-by-local-moonbats/ The justice system is the same. And this is not a liberal vs conservative issue - these are public services that people are not paying attention to. While we have been arguing about stupid topics like identity this has been going on under our noses. ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cum Laude Posted February 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 21 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: "How Should to Home Invasion?" There isn't much to be said for a topic that doesn't start with the basic review of the OP. Sometimes I don't know what to post because I don't even understand what is being said. To answer the question: first, community, then literacy to imbue us with the wisdom of those we will never meet, then action to make our lives better. If people stopped adoring first responders and started asking them what they're doing for their 100 grand a year we might have a start. I had my van stolen and the police kept it for 3 days after they found it so they could charge US $250 storage fees. When I asked why they didn't contact us, the lady said with a straight face that the "crime lab was going over the van". We found a bag of weed in it that the thieves left. The police are pleading on social media that there aren't enough cops "on the beat", meanwhile they are beset with bad press these days, including cops getting stoned on the job, being assigned to guard broken water mains, unable to find dead bodies in buildings steps away from the last place where the victim was seen, uninterested in tracking serial killers, getting drunk while guarding dead bodies. Here's a story about dealing with the police in SF. https://amazingreveal.com/2018/02/10/san-francisco-business-owner-defies-police-to-get-his-van-back-is-taught-by-local-moonbats/ The justice system is the same. And this is not a liberal vs conservative issue - these are public services that people are not paying attention to. While we have been arguing about stupid topics like identity this has been going on under our noses. ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- If someone broke into your home while you were sleeping, and you had young children, what should you be allowed to do to protect your family? What would you have done if you were in Gerald Stanley's shoes? Direct questions are hard to answer when one chooses to evade. This is a huge story, Michael. Social media is ablaze. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 I would do anything possible and necessary, laws be damned. Better them dead than my family, and if I have to go to jail for that so be it. The article you linked in the OP only talks about "protecting property", as if that is all that was at stake in the Stanley case. It was not. Some details of the testimony here- Spencer said members of the Stanley family were working that day on their farm and were not “looking for trouble” when an SUV carrying five young people, including Boushie, from the Red Pheasant First Nation reserve pulled into their driveway. Stanley didn’t have the luxury of waiting for police to arrive on his isolated farm, his lawyer said. Spencer said the case is about protecting people from harm. Spencer said Stanley feared his wife was stuck beneath a vehicle that had entered their yard. Stanley “had to get that thing stopped,” Spencer said.Link Trudeau has also made a statement on this case, just this morning. Trudeau should learn to keep his mouth shut, he was not involved in the trial and did not hear all the evidence. In speaking out, he risks tainting the case and could possibly make it more difficult to press additional charges. Trudeau- always looking for an opportunity to push emotional hot buttons - please shut up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 28 minutes ago, Cum Laude said: This is a huge story, Michael. I acknowledge that it is. But people often miss the real stories under their nose. Obviously I would do whatever I could to defend myself and my family. I don't know that I would shoot someone dead if they were running away from me, though. That sounds like murder of some degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cum Laude Posted February 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: I acknowledge that it is. But people often miss the real stories under their nose. Obviously I would do whatever I could to defend myself and my family. I don't know that I would shoot someone dead if they were running away from me, though. That sounds like murder of some degree. Was the 22 year old running away? The piece I linked was written by a big city elitist. It was the comments that followed that, to me, were more informative. You would do anything you could to defend your family is noble. But would you still do it if you knew your actions would result in you being labelled a racist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cum Laude Posted February 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 27 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: I would do anything possible and necessary, laws be damned. Better them dead than my family, and if I have to go to jail for that so be it. The article you linked in the OP only talks about "protecting property", as if that is all that was at stake in the Stanley case. It was not. Some details of the testimony here- Spencer said members of the Stanley family were working that day on their farm and were not “looking for trouble” when an SUV carrying five young people, including Boushie, from the Red Pheasant First Nation reserve pulled into their driveway. Stanley didn’t have the luxury of waiting for police to arrive on his isolated farm, his lawyer said. Spencer said the case is about protecting people from harm. Spencer said Stanley feared his wife was stuck beneath a vehicle that had entered their yard. Stanley “had to get that thing stopped,” Spencer said.Link Trudeau has also made a statement on this case, just this morning. Trudeau should learn to keep his mouth shut, he was not involved in the trial and did not hear all the evidence. In speaking out, he risks tainting the case and could possibly make it more difficult to press additional charges. Trudeau- always looking for an opportunity to push emotional hot buttons - please shut up. I agree with you. The OP was written by someone with obviously no clue. Maybe she lives in a sheltered gated community where police response would be quick. That is not the case in rural Canada. If you go to twitter and view #justiceforcolton you will see that this case is causing a lot of anger. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: I acknowledge that it is. But people often miss the real stories under their nose. Obviously I would do whatever I could to defend myself and my family. I don't know that I would shoot someone dead if they were running away from me, though. That sounds like murder of some degree. I think many are surprised by the verdict, perhaps even Stanley himself. I think the problem was calling it second degree murder, which implies the intent to kill had to be there. That may have been the issue. Whereas manslaughter does not require this interpretation. I think the definition of manslaughter applies. Note also MH the "can of worms" this has opened up in social media, hateful dialog and racism is being exposed. Remember, country mouse vs. town mouse. Well here it is for all to see. = Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Cum Laude said: This isn't a left/right partisan issue. It will be soon enough, you just watch.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cum Laude Posted February 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 41 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: I think many are surprised by the verdict, perhaps even Stanley himself. I think the problem was calling it second degree murder, which implies the intent to kill had to be there. That may have been the issue. Whereas manslaughter does not require this interpretation. I think the definition of manslaughter applies. Note also MH the "can of worms" this has opened up in social media, hateful dialog and racism is being exposed. Remember, country mouse vs. town mouse. Well here it is for all to see. = Canada. Who's being racist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cum Laude Posted February 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 Just now, eyeball said: It will be soon enough, you just watch.. Can one even have a thought that deviates from the politically correct narrative we have been trained to accept? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Cum Laude said: If someone breaks into your home, what measures can you use to protect your property and family? It's a frightening situation for the homeowner, especially when it occurs in the middle of the night. What happens if you live in a small community where police response time might be 30 minutes or longer? This situation has never happened to me and I hope it never has, but home invasions and break ins have occurred near me. What would you do if you had vulnerable, young children in your home? This isn't a left/right partisan issue. I will link a story from Maclean's. The article is one thing but the comments that follow delve into the debate of what a homeowner should and shouldn't be allowed to do. Please read the comments that follow to get many perspectives. http://www.macleans.ca/news/no-rural-prairie-dwellers-you-cant-shoot-to-protect-your-property/ According to the article, this was not.even close to a home invasion, the house was even approached, let alone broken into. The homeowner was not being threatened; he was so unthreatened, he was leaning into the dead guy's vehicle to turn it off when his gun accidentally discharged - that is his story. The commenters choose to ignore all that in favor of arguing for killing someone who is trespassing, period. Not stealing anything, not threatening anyone, just there, past a property line. They justify this with "but maybe he was gonna steal something." Maybe he was gonna ask for directions too, but "shoot first and ask queations later" as one commentator said. The commentators aren't debating real "kill or be killed" situations; they're deciding that they are willing to kill people who come onto their property without permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 1 hour ago, OftenWrong said: I would do anything possible and necessary, laws be damned. Better them dead than my family, and if I have to go to jail for that so be it. The article you linked in the OP only talks about "protecting property", as if that is all that was at stake in the Stanley case. It was not. Some details of the testimony here- Spencer said members of the Stanley family were working that day on their farm and were not “looking for trouble” when an SUV carrying five young people, including Boushie, from the Red Pheasant First Nation reserve pulled into their driveway. Stanley didn’t have the luxury of waiting for police to arrive on his isolated farm, his lawyer said. Spencer said the case is about protecting people from harm. Spencer said Stanley feared his wife was stuck beneath a vehicle that had entered their yard. Stanley “had to get that thing stopped,” Spencer said.Link The story in this link seems a little different than the story in the other link, so if this more accurate than the shooter was under significantly more stress. But he still maintains that the gun went off accidentally. If someone was actively threatening my life or my kids life, and I had the means, I think I could/would kill them. But it would really have to be a me or them situation. The problem with "stand your ground" laws is that people really do try to use that to cover up deliberate murder. The problem with having guns as your protection and to "scare" people is that you can easily kill someone accidentally, whether its a property thief you wanted to scare off, or someone asking for direction at your front door, or a family member sneaking in late. Even the farmer in this story claims he wasn't intending to kill this kid, only make him do something using a show of force. He was acquitted, I see. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, Cum Laude said: Who's being racist? Many are. It's a fact of life. During the Stanley trial, and leading up to it, many people made extremely racist comments on social media, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. Example:“His only mistake was leaving witnesses,” wrote one rural municipality councillor, who later resigned over the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, OftenWrong said: Trudeau has also made a statement on this case, just this morning. Trudeau should learn to keep his mouth shut, he was not involved in the trial and did not hear all the evidence. In speaking out, he risks tainting the case and could possibly make it more difficult to press additional charges. Trudeau- always looking for an opportunity to push emotional hot buttons - please shut up. I love how those who actually are making statements about the case blame others who didn't. I listened to his short statement (clearly not a statement but a response to a reporters questions - he wasn't even wearing a suit he was obviously approached), and he clearly stated that he was not going to comment on the specific case. Please take your own advice. Edited February 10, 2018 by ?Impact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cum Laude Posted February 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 37 minutes ago, dialamah said: The story in this link seems a little different than the story in the other link, so if this more accurate than the shooter was under significantly more stress. But he still maintains that the gun went off accidentally. If someone was actively threatening my life or my kids life, and I had the means, I think I could/would kill them. But it would really have to be a me or them situation. The problem with "stand your ground" laws is that people really do try to use that to cover up deliberate murder. The problem with having guns as your protection and to "scare" people is that you can easily kill someone accidentally, whether its a property thief you wanted to scare off, or someone asking for direction at your front door, or a family member sneaking in late. Even the farmer in this story claims he wasn't intending to kill this kid, only make him do something using a show of force. He was acquitted, I see. The OP was an opinion piece from someone who lives far away from Saskatchewan. It was in Maclean's. I heard the 5 young people had a loaded gun. I heard they tried to steal an ATV. I heard they rammed the wife's vehicle. I hope I am never in a situation like this. None of us really no how we'd react if it actually happened to us. So many what ifs. You mentioned what you'd do if it was a me or them situation, which I understand. But at what point do you decide it's me or him. I don't know what the answer is. I hope I never have to face a situation like this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Cum Laude said: If someone breaks into your home, what measures can you use to protect your property and family? It's a frightening situation for the homeowner, especially when it occurs in the middle of the night. What happens if you live in a small community where police response time might be 30 minutes or longer? This situation has never happened to me and I hope it never has, but home invasions and break ins have occurred near me. What would you do if you had vulnerable, young children in your home? This isn't a left/right partisan issue. I will link a story from Maclean's. The article is one thing but the comments that follow delve into the debate of what a homeowner should and shouldn't be allowed to do. Please read the comments that follow to get many perspectives. http://www.macleans.ca/news/no-rural-prairie-dwellers-you-cant-shoot-to-protect-your-property/ In a way, it is a left and right issue. You are not allowed to protect your home and yourself, and your family in ANY WAY you can. When you're confronted by an intruder inside your home, you've got to stop and think how you can protect yourself without using excessive measures. If he's unarmed , should you use your gun? I don't think you're allowed. Did the intruder mean to harm you physically? Did he mean to actually kill you, or just rough you up a bit? You've got to assess that, too. Many things for you to process at that heightened time when your natural instinct is to fight back with anything you've got (with the natural purpose to ensure your own safety, of course)........otherwise, you'll be the one who'll be labelled a villain, and get prosecuted. How did we get to this? Thanks to the left........ Edited February 10, 2018 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 I haven't been paying attention to this case, so I can't really comment on it, but given the open question in the thread title, I have to say that one can do whatever it takes, and the homeowner gets to decide what it takes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, dialamah said: According to the article, this was not.even close to a home invasion, the house was even approached, let alone broken into. The homeowner was not being threatened; he was so unthreatened, he was leaning into the dead guy's vehicle to turn it off when his gun accidentally discharged - that is his story. The commenters choose to ignore all that in favor of arguing for killing someone who is trespassing, period. Not stealing anything, not threatening anyone, just there, past a property line. They justify this with "but maybe he was gonna steal something." Maybe he was gonna ask for directions too, but "shoot first and ask queations later" as one commentator said. The commentators aren't debating real "kill or be killed" situations; they're deciding that they are willing to kill people who come onto their property without permission. The OP's premise is about a home invasion. If someone breaks into your home, he said..... Edited February 10, 2018 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cum Laude Posted February 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 12 minutes ago, betsy said: The OP's premise is about a home invasion. If someone breaks into your home, he said..... Yes. The case in Sask. is about property invasion. I used home invasion because most of us own a home or live in an apartment. Most of us don't own farmland. I would have to think farmers are vulnerable because they are isolated. If you live in Toronto, you don't understand how long it can take for police to arrive at your farm in rural Saskatchewan. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cum Laude Posted February 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 1 hour ago, OftenWrong said: Many are. It's a fact of life. During the Stanley trial, and leading up to it, many people made extremely racist comments on social media, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. Example:“His only mistake was leaving witnesses,” wrote one rural municipality councillor, who later resigned over the post. I never heard that. That is terribly irresponsible, if true. Do you think Stanley should be locked up for life, knowing what you know about this case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 27 minutes ago, betsy said: How did we get to this? Thanks to the left........ Thanks to a decent society, we are no longer the wild west where your sidearm is the law. We live by rules, not who has the bigger gun and the best shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, Cum Laude said: Do you think Stanley should be locked up for life, knowing what you know about this case? What I know about this case is that Stanley was found not culpable in the death of Boushie, so therefore he should not be locked up for life. We have a judicial system to dig into the details, and yes we must work to ensure the integrity of that judicial system, but we also must respect its results. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 24 minutes ago, Cum Laude said: You mentioned what you'd do if it was a me or them situation, which I understand. But at what point do you decide it's me or him. I don't know what the answer is. I hope I never have to face a situation like this. A couple of times, I've confronted sketchy people on our property. The young lady I escorted off turned at the edge of the property and threw a rock at me; the guy I advised to leave made threatening gestures toward me. What if, in either of those situations, they had had had guns? Or even if the girl had a knife to throw? Or if I felt that I needed a gun to back myself up? Would death have ensued for trespass? So one has to understand one's own behavior and how far they'd go in some situations. My tendency is to confront rather than back down, but I suspect that's not the safest behavior; perhaps that is why police usually advise against it. Given the evidence of my past behavior, I am pretty sure that in a situation where myself or my family was at risk, I would protect them and myself if I had the means. But I think this also means I am more at risk and potentially more dangerous even when my life is not directly at risk. I don't think there's necessarily a point of "me or him"; it's action and reaction till someone makes that lethal move. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted February 10, 2018 Report Share Posted February 10, 2018 21 minutes ago, Cum Laude said: Yes. The case in Sask. is about property invasion. I used home invasion because most of us own a home or live in an apartment. Most of us don't own farmland. I would have to think farmers are vulnerable because they are isolated. If you live in Toronto, you don't understand how long it can take for police to arrive at your farm in rural Saskatchewan. I would consider property trespass as a front or back yard, a parking garage, a front driveway or a farmer"s field. A home invasion, to me, is a situation where someone breaks into a home when people are there and violently takes control of those people. For that reason, the farm situation and a home invasion are very different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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