Argus Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) So we have a multimillionaire finance minister who won't say where all his tens of millions are invested, or whether he's sold his millions of shares in his daddy's company, making tax changes which would greatly benefit -- his dad's company, and a PM who, like his finance minister, makes copious use of family trusts to hide his income from the tax man while earnestly and hypocritically talking about how he's punishing the 'rich' (meaning doctors, farmers, etc) with more taxes on behalf of the middle class. Neither will tell us what they own, so we have no way of knowing how much they will personally stand to benefit from tax changes they are making Does Morneau have discussions with his in-laws the McCain family before making tax changes to decide what would benefit them most? Does he design those tax changes to benefit his daddy's company in order to make himself richer? We don't know. We're not supposed to ask. Unfortunately this Globe and Mail story is under lock but a few quotes are revealing. Finance Minister Bill Morneau has not placed his substantial personal holdings into a blind trust as Justin Trudeau did for his family fortune – a move that the Prime Minister holds up as the gold standard for avoiding conflicts of interest in federal politics. ... And neither the Ethics Commissioner's office nor Mr. Morneau's office will say whether the Finance Minister sold shares in Morneau Shepell, the pension and human-resources management firm founded by his father. ... Opposition MPs and tax experts have said that Morneau Shepell would be one of the main beneficiaries of the move by the Finance Minister to increase taxes on passive investment in private corporations. Disclosure documents that the Finance Minister filed with the federal Ethics Commissioner's office say he is a potential beneficiary of the Nancy McCain 2013 Family Trust. He also appears to be a beneficiary of another trust, called the Morneau McCain Family Trust. Those records also show that Mr. Morneau is sole owner of 2070689 Ontario Ltd., a Toronto-based holding company, which also owns much of an Alberta-based investment holding company in Calgary, 1193536 Alberta Ltd. Ms. McCain, his spouse, is president of the Toronto company and a director of the Alberta firm. Edited October 16, 2017 by Argus 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Par for the course. The safeguards that Western governments and institutions are supposed to have against corruption and nepotism are breaking down, mostly as a result of partisanship (i.e. a Liberal partisan will reflexively defend the Liberals regardless of if they have acted improperly, same with a Trump supporter defending Trump, etc) and apathy (people just don't care enough to push for these kinds of things to be properly investigated and guilty parties punished). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, Bonam said: Par for the course. Agreed...this is garden variety Liberal Party of Canada behaviour and quite expected. He could be fined a whopping $100 CAD ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omni Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 So let's see Trumps tax returns and then we'll see how honest he looks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Omni said: So let's see Trumps tax returns and then we'll see how honest he looks. Who cares about trump, you boys are just as corrupt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omni Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 8 minutes ago, PIK said: Who cares about trump, you boys are just as corrupt. Who are "you boys"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 12 minutes ago, PIK said: Who cares about trump, you boys are just as corrupt. True...the Liberals in Canada have been far more corrupt for far longer than anything Trump has done in politics and governing. That's why there was a no confidence vote in late 2005 and the Liberals were turfed in 2006. Most corrupt party in North America. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omni Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: True...the Liberals in Canada have been far more corrupt for far longer than anything Trump has done in politics and governing. That's why there was a no confidence vote in late 2005 and the Liberals were turfed in 2006. Most corrupt party in North America. I thought someone who follows Canadian TV and politics as much as you would know that the Liberals were never found in contempt of parliament, such as oh, that conservative guy you liked. How long has Trump been in politics, "governing" again? And how many years has he failed to file income tax? How many contractors has he stiffed and for how much?. Who is looking corrupt? Hilarious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 The 'rich' are rich, just not as rich as the rich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) The truly rich are those who have the most influence on/over people in power. We could tax their money but the real trick is to somehow place a tax on their influence. That's what I'm into taking away the most from the truly rich and redistributing to the people. Edited October 16, 2017 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 What a whopper and I don`t mean a burger… Trudeau is claiming that consultations of past months were all about today’s announcement of honouring his election promise to cut small business income tax… Pinocchio knows.. and today Trudeau has banned Morneau from answering questions at the Finance press conference. Good move on JT`s part I suppose, can`t let the plebes know anymore. So I`m wondering how long before Morneau will have to step down. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 7 hours ago, Bonam said: Par for the course. The safeguards that Western governments and institutions are supposed to have against corruption and nepotism are breaking down, mostly as a result of partisanship (i.e. a Liberal partisan will reflexively defend the Liberals regardless of if they have acted improperly, same with a Trump supporter defending Trump, etc) and apathy (people just don't care enough to push for these kinds of things to be properly investigated and guilty parties punished). We have been had. Its the citizens that are supposed to keep the government honest, but we have bought their little left vs right charade hook line and sinker. No matter what any government does now we will just be partisan hacks like the guy that started this thread and most of the other people here. Died in the wool partisans (both liberal and conservative) would still stand by their parties and leaders even if they got caught red handed in high def video ass raping a small child. They would say "ya but so and so is worse"... or "the source of the ass raping video is not credible). Its pretty awesome if you think about. Philosophers have been trying to figure out how to game democracy for hundreds of years... they finally figured out all they had to do was trump up fake enemies and turn us against each other by convincing us that ideology and the retarded culture war are whats important. We get exactly the kind of government we deserve, and to be honest its great to see us starting to get punished for our stupidity. Sometimes pain is the only way to learn. Last laugh will be on them though... because once corrupt career politicians and their financial and industrial elite buddies have finished stealing everything, they will get dragged from their estates and cut into little pieces. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 5 hours ago, eyeball said: The truly rich are those who have the most influence on/over people in power. We could tax their money but the real trick is to somehow place a tax on their influence. That's what I'm into taking away the most from the truly rich and redistributing to the people. I don't think you can "fix" it though. Change will come once the fact we are really an oligarchy becomes so blatant that we burn it all to the ground and start again from scratch. Unfortunately that will take a while, because they are able to keep the illusion that the system works for "the people" by borrowing vast sums of money from people that are not even alive yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, dre said: I don't think you can "fix" it though. Change will come once the fact we are really an oligarchy becomes so blatant that we burn it all to the ground and start again from scratch. Unfortunately that will take a while, because they are able to keep the illusion that the system works for "the people" by borrowing vast sums of money from people that are not even alive yet. Probably not even worth fixing. Oh well we can help stack the pyre with fuel I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 2 hours ago, dre said: Died in the wool partisans (both liberal and conservative) would still stand by their parties and leaders even if they got caught red handed in high def video ass raping a small child. They would say "ya but so and so is worse"... or "the source of the ass raping video is not credible). Yep, as Trump himself said, he could shoot someone and his supporters wouldn't care. Quote Its pretty awesome if you think about. Philosophers have been trying to figure out how to game democracy for hundreds of years... they finally figured out all they had to do was trump up fake enemies and turn us against each other by convincing us that ideology and the retarded culture war are whats important. To be fair, this isn't exactly some new discovery. The strategy of keeping your subjects fighting amongst themselves or scapegoating specific groups has been used by rulers for millenia. You can see it in the quotes of Nazi leaders. You can see it in the historical accounts of how monarchs pitted nobles against each other, or the aristocracy against the merchants. You can see it in how Roman politicians did things. Quote We get exactly the kind of government we deserve, and to be honest its great to see us starting to get punished for our stupidity. Sometimes pain is the only way to learn. Well, the problem with this is that collective punishment is not exactly just. There are plenty of intelligent people out there who don't fall for partisan bs and are willing to think about issues rationally. And there are also plenty of people who have no say and who can't fairly be blamed for the governments we have. Quote Last laugh will be on them though... because once corrupt career politicians and their financial and industrial elite buddies have finished stealing everything, they will get dragged from their estates and cut into little pieces. French revolution type events rarely result in lasting prosperity, and even if the "elites" have a bad time in the process, the "common folk" as always suffer worst. So it's not exactly something to cheer on. Personally, I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that democracy as we currently envision it isn't really a viable form of government for the 21st century. People are no biologically different than they were thousands of years ago, and yet today Ug the Caveman is expected to be exposed to hundreds of different information streams, most of which contain 99% bullshit and lies, and use his rational mind to filter from that an accurate picture of reality, and then use that judgement to select an individual (from among those who are specifically trained in the art of generating the bullshit and lies) to represent their viewpoint. It's an absurd system. As someone or other said, democracy is the worst system of government except for all the others. Those other systems of governments are still worse, but surely something better must be possible. I don't know what the answer is but hopefully it gets figured out in the next few decades. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 I wonder how long it will be before Trudeau throws Morneau under the bus... the shiny pony is not so shiny these days. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 26 minutes ago, scribblet said: I wonder how long it will be before Trudeau throws Morneau under the bus... the shiny pony is not so shiny these days. Or Morneau will simply resign. With his millions, as if he needs the aggravation of being embarrassed publicly by Trudeau. Trudeau to journalist: "Here's your chance to ask the Prime Minister a question." Could he be more arrogant? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) Anyone who has answered questions about foreign property on their tax return, as I have had to do, must be irritated by what Morneau seems to have done. Perhaps he should resign - after all, he doesn't need the work. However, that does not affect the merits of his proposal. For example, sprinkling remains wrong and should not be allowed.. Edited October 17, 2017 by SpankyMcFarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, capricorn said: Or Morneau will simply resign. With his millions, as if he needs the aggravation of being embarrassed publicly by Trudeau. Trudeau to journalist: "Here's your chance to ask the Prime Minister a question." Could he be more arrogant? Actually, that was more like the PM deliberately obstructing journalists from asking pertinent questions by blocking questions to Morneau. Morneau seems like a nice guy actually, but he'll either resign or not run in the next election. The media seems to waking up a bit these days, to the Liberal arrogance, lies and broken promises. ETA: I'm okay with stopping 'income sprinkling' if there is no proof that the relative is working or putting in time for the corporation. Edited October 17, 2017 by scribblet 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 2 hours ago, scribblet said: ... the shiny pony is not so shiny these days. I'll say. There was some idea, when he was elected, that somebody in the back room was going to help with the actual governing part of government, as opposed to the smiling for the cameras part. He lost his NDP crossovers when he torpedoed Proportional Representation and lost his temper in parliament. And now the mushy middle is trying to remember why they voted for him while they are being reminded of why they voted in the unlikeable bug known as Stephen Harper. (pssst... the scandals) Just shy of 2 years in, the bloom is off the son of the rose and away he goes. Even a strong economy might not help him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 A lot can happen in two years , many people still go for good looks and good hair rather than good governance. Talking about Morneau, if he still holds over 2 million in shares in Sheppell and Morneau that are not in a blind trust, then he’s also been getting dividends worth over $146,000 a month. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 I had him pegged as being worthless by day two of his election. He kept the weight of the government kneeling as firmly on Canadians backs as any conservative when it came to pot and then maintained Canada's weapon sales to dictators. I honestly don't understand why right wingers are so turned off by him. He typically campaigned like a lefty then ruled like a rightie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted October 18, 2017 Report Share Posted October 18, 2017 4 hours ago, eyeball said: I had him pegged as being worthless by day two of his election. He kept the weight of the government kneeling as firmly on Canadians backs as any conservative when it came to pot and then maintained Canada's weapon sales to dictators. I honestly don't understand why right wingers are so turned off by him. He typically campaigned like a lefty then ruled like a rightie. Also known as a "Neo- Liberal". I had you pegged as a guy who would have voted for him... assuming you do actually vote. I know a few bitter old-timers who refuse to vote for anyone, on principle, and you could possibly be one of those. Of course, the NDP option would also suit you well. Are we... communism-lite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 18, 2017 Report Share Posted October 18, 2017 5 hours ago, eyeball said: I honestly don't understand why right wingers are so turned off by him. He typically campaigned like a lefty then ruled like a rightie. I agree with you. It must be because he speaks French. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted October 18, 2017 Report Share Posted October 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: I agree with you. It must be because he speaks French. Financial corruption, big spending, graft are all the hallmarks of a Liberal government, fella. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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