Singh Wins Federal NDP on 1st Ballot

[August1991]

At first glance, this is good news for some partisan anglo (typically Catholic) federal Liberals (eg. Allen MacEachen, Keith Davey, Gerald Butts style).

But on second thought, this is possibly death to other federal Liberals, and everything Trudeau Snr defended, fought for.

=====

Today, I walked by the Parc Jacques-Couture. Elected in 1976, he resigned in 1981. How times change...

Edited October 2, 2017 by August1991

[Michael Hardner]

It's really too bad there isn't a Nobel Prize for inscrutable posts, or Justin Trudeau himself and the CBC would be lauding you this morning.

Here are several questions about your short post:

'partisan Liberals' - aren't all party members, including Liberals, partisan by definition ?

why is it good news for 'some' anglo Liberals ?

why Catholic Liberals ?

why is it good news for those people you mentioned, including at least one who is dead ?

Why is it death to other Liberals ?

Why does this election mean anything to Liberals ?  You haven't given a single reason.

Why does it have anything to do with Jacques-Couture ?

How are times changing ?

--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  

There's no connecting this collection of random observations with the event, based on what you have written.  Communication is meant to send a message to the receiver.  Please do that.

[scribblet]

7 hours ago, August1991 said:

At first glance, this is good news for some partisan anglo (typically Catholic) federal Liberals (eg. Allen MacEachen, Keith Davey, Gerald Butts style).

ut on second thought, this is possibly death to other federal Liberals, and everything Trudeau Snr defended, fought for.

..................

Could be death to the Liberals but I don't think so, it could also means that the NDP would split the vote enough for the CPC to come up the middle and win.   Heaven help Canada if the Federal NDP should win, mind you, although I did think Trudeau was out lefting the NDP.

[Michael Hardner]

5 minutes ago, scribblet said:

Could be death to the Liberals but I don't think so, it could also means that the NDP would split the vote enough for the CPC to come up the middle and win.   Heaven help Canada if the Federal NDP should win, mind you, although I did think Trudeau was out lefting the NDP.

That's a *little* clearer.  The idea seems to be that a minority Candidate will take a segment of left voters away from the Liberals.

If that's the idea, then I concur.  But I also lament the degree to which symbolism and tokenism have supplanted actual ideas in politics todays.

As I have said before - the party that can focus on providing better services efficiently will at some point win the the support of MOR Canadians.  It's easier to manipulate images and messages, though, than to actually manage the sleepy octopus that is government.

[Argus]

5 hours ago, scribblet said:

Could be death to the Liberals but I don't think so, it could also means that the NDP would split the vote enough for the CPC to come up the middle and win.   Heaven help Canada if the Federal NDP should win, mind you, although I did think Trudeau was out lefting the NDP.

I doubt there will be any sort of NDP resurgence. Whatever new gains they get around Toronto and BC will be erased by losses in Quebec. 

There are enough Sikhs to swamp an NDP leadership campaign but not enough to get their party into power.

[capricorn]

As much as Mr. Singh likes to think (and says) that Quebec is a progressive province, IMO his wearing of religious symbols will not go over well in La Belle Province. It took Quebecers a very long time to get out from under the thumb of the Catholic Church and religion is not an element they want to contend with in their modern politics.

[cannuck]

I am enjoying this.  Watching the Libs and NDP compete to see who can be the most politically correct and closest the left fringe is just going to give the new kid over at the PC office a much easier job.

[PIK]

The only reason the NDP did ok was jack and jack is gone, and so will be the NDP..

[Rue]

On 02/10/2017 at 12:14 AM, August1991 said:

At first glance, this is good news for some partisan anglo (typically Catholic) federal Liberals (eg. Allen MacEachen, Keith Davey, Gerald Butts style).

But on second thought, this is possibly death to other federal Liberals, and everything Trudeau Snr defended, fought for.

=====

Today, I walked by the Parc Jacques-Couture. Elected in 1976, he resigned in 1981. How times change...

Get a grip. He supposedly got 32,000 phone in write in votes. That's a reflection of just how few NDP voted  or cared about their party.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Rue

[August1991]

On 10/2/2017 at 2:01 PM, Argus said:

I doubt there will be any sort of NDP resurgence. Whatever new gains they get around Toronto and BC will be erased by losses in Quebec. 

There are enough Sikhs to swamp an NDP leadership campaign but not enough to get their party into power.

Argus, that's the thinking of MacEachen,  Davey. They thought in communal terms.

Trudeau Snr, to his credit - and I say this without irony - refused to seek votes in such a manner.

Edited October 5, 2017 by August1991

[August1991]

On 10/2/2017 at 7:19 AM, Michael Hardner said:

....

why Catholic Liberals ?

...

The new federal NDP leader insists on wearing a turban, always. And he tries to speak nonsense French, with a ridiculous accent.

And he expects that anyone in Quebec (outside anglo, left Montreal) will vote for him?

====

When this guy removes his headress/turban, I will take him seriously as a Canadian federal politician. Until then, IMHO, he's communal.

Canadian federal politicians, historically, have played the religion card with far better finesse.

So far, this guy Singh strikes me as an ignorant bull in a china shop.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by August1991

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, August1991 said:

When this guy removes his headress/turban, I will take him seriously as a Canadian federal politician. Until then, IMHO, he's communal.

Canadian federal politicians, historically, have played the religion card with far better finesse.

So far, this guy Singh strikes me as an ignorant bull in a china shop.

Ok, it sounds like you believe he is religious for cynical reasons and therefore made a bad decision to keep his religion, or even use it to get elected.  In politics, I try to understand the person but realize that it's impossible to do so.  I don't even know those who are close to me 100%.  I even surprise myself sometimes.  That is life.

So I take the assumption that he is actually religious and wants to be in politics.  If Quebec can't deal with it, then that's that.  You're reinforcing the idea that Quebec cares about such things more than English Canada, and that's significant.

[Argus]

10 hours ago, August1991 said:

Argus, that's the thinking of MacEachen,  Davey. They thought in communal terms.

Trudeau Snr, to his credit - and I say this without irony - refused to seek votes in such a manner.

Trudeau snr had a different message in every part of the country. Trudeau junior has a different message for every race, linguistic and cultural group, gender and gender identification group he targets.

[Argus]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

So I take the assumption that he is actually religious and wants to be in politics.  If Quebec can't deal with it, then that's that.  You're reinforcing the idea that Quebec cares about such things more than English Canada, and that's significant.

You mean that Quebec cares about its culture and values more than English Canada? Yes, that's been obvious for some time. Hell, leftist Anglos refuse to admit English Canada even HAS any culture or values.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Argus

[H10]

Doubt Singh will beat out a francophone from Quebec in Trudeau.  Trudeau might even win bigger next time around because Singhs turban and not being from Quebec will work against him and Trudeau being a charismatic Liberal, which is the natural governing centrist party of Canada. The best case scenario for the cons would be a minority government or substantial gains, but with an extremist  at the helm, I doubt they have a chance.  I suspect Trudeau will be in power for a while, he is young, probably won't lost until he is in his 60s and since he is so young he can come back.

[ironstone]

NDP members  mimicked the Liberals with their last leadership convention.They saw how successful the Liberals were by picking someone inexperienced,but considered to be "young and hip".I think the NDP will siphon off a fair number of votes from the Liberals in the next election,but not enough to form a government.

I already know enough about Singh that turns me off(simply the fact that he is in the NDP is enough).

http://www.fullreport.ca/jagmeet-singh-off-to-bad-start-as-leader-of-the-ndp/

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/james-di-fiore/jagmeet-singh-needs-to-denounce-any-glorification-of-bombing-mastermind_a_23234749/

[eyeball]

5 hours ago, ironstone said:

I already know enough about Singh that turns me off(simply the fact that he is in the NDP is enough).

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/james-di-fiore/jagmeet-singh-needs-to-denounce-any-glorification-of-bombing-mastermind_a_23234749/

From your article. 

Quote

Singh evaded the question three times, deflecting to the historical and present-day strife between Sikhs, Hindus and the government of India.

Too bad...you see this exact sort of thing multiple times a day around here.

But yeah, Singh definitely won't be getting my vote now.  Near as I can see he's no better than most right-wing conservatives and for the same exact reason.

[August1991]

On 10/5/2017 at 6:12 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Ok, it sounds like you believe he is religious for cynical reasons and therefore made a bad decision to keep his religion...

Absolutely.

In general, successful federal Canadian politicians have never used religion to win votes.

Indeed, speaking of "communalism", successful provincial politicians are rarely successful in federal politics: eg. Stanfield, Drew. (Both were provincial PMs, never elected federally.) 

=====

When he takes off his turban (English Patient/Ondaatje style, showing his long hair), then he may have a chance of being a Canadian federal PM.

Edited October 10, 2017 by August1991

[H10]

3 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Absolutely.

In general, successful federal Canadian politicians have never used religion to win votes.

Indeed, speaking of "communalism", successful provincial politicians are rarely successful in federal politics: eg. Stanfield, Drew. (Both were provincial PMs, never elected federally.) 

It is odd when you think of it, Canadian federal politicians basically start from scratch, instead of working their way up like us politicians.

America has a large religious nut wing in the bible belt.  It is kind of funny that the "religious" "Christian" people are the most bigoted haters in the entire hemisphere.

[August1991]

1 hour ago, H10 said:

America has a large religious nut wing in the bible belt.  It is kind of funny that the "religious" "Christian" people are the most bigoted haters in the entire hemisphere.

Canada (English/French) is largely a Catholic country. America is a country of Protestants.

=====

We have had numerous Catholic federal PMs: Thompson, Turner, Clark, Mulroney, Martin, Laurier etc.  You Americans have had only one: Kennedy.

Edited October 10, 2017 by August1991

[PIK]

So where is he? The party of the worker seems prettyy quiet about the small business killing tax and the perk tax? Where is the party of the worker?

[August1991]

On 10/10/2017 at 11:50 AM, PIK said:

So where is he? The party of the worker seems prettyy quiet about the small business killing tax and the perk tax? Where is the party of the worker?

Justin Trudeau, a Catholic, is quiet.

[Benz]

On ‎2017‎-‎10‎-‎05 at 6:12 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Ok, it sounds like you believe he is religious for cynical reasons and therefore made a bad decision to keep his religion, or even use it to get elected.  In politics, I try to understand the person but realize that it's impossible to do so.  I don't even know those who are close to me 100%.  I even surprise myself sometimes.  That is life.

So I take the assumption that he is actually religious and wants to be in politics.  If Quebec can't deal with it, then that's that.  You're reinforcing the idea that Quebec cares about such things more than English Canada, and that's significant.

Allow me to make you see this on another perspective. Québec and the ROC have a very different vision of the roles and players around the religions.

For the ROC, it's all about the individuals. One individiual has the right to choose and practice its religion and the religion is seen as a sacred protected cloud under the individual's fundamental rights.

For Québec, the individual's spirituality and the religious organizations are seen as 2 totally seperated entities and the religious organizations are NOT protected by one individual's religious rights. The diffirence is major.

Québec and the ROC both have one point in common. One individual has the right to choose its religion and practice it in its privacy, public place and cult locations. However, for Québec, that right is limited to the individual. The religion itself does not have the same legitimated right. So if a religion tells you what to wear, what to do and what to eat, those orders are NOT considered as an absolute individual religious rights. Québec doesn't give a shit what your religious organization tells you to do. We consider that you must be intelligent enough to draw the line between what are the choices of the society and the orders from your religion. We know that some people are not able to understand and respect that difference. That's why we require a more explicit secularism than most of the people in the ROC does.

When I see a guy like Singh, not capable to remove its ostentatious symbols like its turban and its kirpan (a weapon) if he becomes a PM, it gives me the signal that he will most likely take the wrong decisions if he is confronted in a situation where his religious beleifs are in contradiction with his position of PM for all canadians.

He owns his spirituality but, he does not own his religion. He must be capable to take a distance from it. That is the very least I expect from my PM. No way I can trust him if he can't remove his weapon while un function. Whether it is lock sealed into a case or not.

That's why we do not mind if a man wears a kirpan when serving burgers in a fast food chain, but we do not accept it if he is a judge, a teacher, a policeman... a PM. Religious practices are not absolute sacred rights of your spirituality. They are orders from religious organizations. They are protected only if you are the only one that is concerned by them. When you occupy a role of autority, every one are concerned.

If Singh eventually takes the decision to get rid of his ostentacious symbols while in function, his religious beleifs will become totally irrelevent for me. I know he will be able to draw the line between the choices of our society and his own personal religious beleifs. He would then become credible and he would have the same chances of anyone else to win my political support.

[Benz]

I see that many of you guys think he will divide the liberal votes for the favor of the conservatices. He is that good in English Canada? I would not be surprised if he can't even score one seat in Québec. I am rather wondering if he will push more traditional NDP supporters into the arms of the Liberal party. Which can't be good for the cons. The cons needs a substential division between NDP and the Libs.

[Michael Hardner]

13 minutes ago, Benz said:

When I see a guy like Singh, not capable to remove its ostentatious symbols like its turban and its kirpan (a weapon) if he becomes a PM, it gives me the signal that he will most likely take the wrong decisions if he is confronted in a situation where his religious beleifs are in contradiction with his position of PM for all canadians.

This reminds me of Kennedy having to reassure Americans in 1960 that he wouldn't put his religion above his nationality.  He had to do that because he wasn't protestant.  Harper didn't have to hide or downplay his religion.

I'm not religious, but I don't care if the PM is as long as he/she can be a good leader.  With Singh, it's a non-issue because he won't even be making it to opposition.