The Ill feeling between left and right on immigration

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 Dodge.

You're not trying to discuss these things objectively.  You start from aspects of the holy books and use that as a basis to condemn all members of the religion, but don't use the same process for other religions.  

Nobody wants to participate in a discussion with somebody who won't change their mind, you see.

[Omni]

2 hours ago, Goddess said:

We're not talking about where various religions want to worship privately.  No one is talking about or even advocating preventing any religion from praying.  Nice try, though.

I think you weren't following very closely and missed the point.

[Omni]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

And, of course, if they want to change those laws, that's okay, too. 

We change laws all the time Argus, thought you would be aware of that.

[eyeball]

16 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Apologists for Islam...

What apologists? There is a vast difference between understanding why things unfold the way they do and apologizing for what unfolds. Ignoring that difference is a completely amoral thing to do that seeks to avoid facing some very unpleasant truths. To have it your way you will have to obliterate rather than simply ignore that difference. A war to that ends or a global Truth and Reconciliation process are probably the only ways forward at this point.

[eyeball]

26 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Islam spreads via Muslims...duh.

So does pita bread.

[Goddess]

17 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Although, I haven't heard the story:  was the woman perhaps in an arena and the 2000 men had actually shown up for that event?  If that's the case, I will be corrected as to the veracity of this claim.

Maybe google Muslim Rape Game and see what you find.

 

[eyeball]

20 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Maybe google Muslim Rape Game and see what you find.

That's really lame. Its what you found that matters in your claim that 2000 rapists attacked a woman.

[dialamah]

12 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Maybe google Muslim Rape Game and see what you find.

 

 

 

 

I've already done in that early February and discovered, it's yet another right-wing hyperbolic misstatement of the actual facts.  But that doesn't matter to you does it?  if it doesn't criminalize Muslims and Islam in some way, it's not true.  

 

[PIK]

Why do the people on the left have no problem with filling up this country with muslims?? Do you hate yourself that much,that by giving this country away,you will be able to sleep at night. This country belongs to us, as in canadians, not some muslim that is not even here yet.

[Michael Hardner]

13 minutes ago, PIK said:

 This country belongs to us, as in canadians, not some muslim that is not even here yet.

Canadians are Muslim too.  If you don't want that, then you should direct your energy to changing the constitution to make Canada a Christian state.

[DogOnPorch]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

You're not trying to discuss these things objectively.  You start from aspects of the holy books and use that as a basis to condemn all members of the religion, but don't use the same process for other religions.  

Nobody wants to participate in a discussion with somebody who won't change their mind, you see.

 

What other religions have a global terror campaign going on while at the same time flooding the West with mostly male 'refugees'?

Take your time...

 

[DogOnPorch]

37 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I've already done in that early February and discovered, it's yet another right-wing hyperbolic misstatement of the actual facts.  But that doesn't matter to you does it?  if it doesn't criminalize Muslims and Islam in some way, it's not true.  

 

 

So Taharrush is a fabrication of Western bigots trying to give Islam a black eye? Pretty clever they made-up an Arabic word for it, too...eh?

[Goddess]

44 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I've already done in that early February and discovered, it's yet another right-wing hyperbolic misstatement of the actual facts.  But that doesn't matter to you does it?  if it doesn't criminalize Muslims and Islam in some way, it's not true.  

 

Another brief foray into this and I am unable to find anything that says this is made up by the right wing.

So far, I've seen a couple of articles that object to it being called a "Rape" game, since after the women are stripped, they are mostly (mostly) penetrated in all orifices by fingers and hands and various objects.

I would still call this rape, so you and I will have to disagree on this one.

[dialamah]

12 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

So Taharrush is a fabrication of Western bigots trying to give Islam a black eye? Pretty clever they made-up an Arabic word for it, too...eh?

 

 

'Hyperbolic misstatement of actual fact' is not the same as 'fabrication'.    

Here's an example of the differences:

Fact:  US drops MOAB in Afghanistan

Hyperbolic misstatement would be:  US drops 3 bombs in Afghanistan, kills 3000 soldiers and 5000 civilians, including women and children.

Fabrication:  There is no such thing as an MOAB, so the US could not possibly have dropped one in Afghanistan.

Fact:  Taharrush game'a means 'Group Harrasment' and can involve sexual harassment.   The term was coined as a result of some Egyptians who would harass people, and steal from them, as well as assault women during the Arab Spring.   It is illegal in Egypt and everywhere, and condemned around the world, by Muslims and non-Muslims alike.  

Hyperbolic misstatement:  Tarrahush game'a is a traditional Arabic rape game in which 100s or thousands of men gang rape a woman.  This is a common occurrence and accepted practice in the Arab world and will become common in the Western world too because there are so many Muslims.

Fabrication:  There is no such thing as Tarrahush Game'a anywhere at all.

 

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, dialamah said:

'Hyperbolic misstatement of actual fact' is not the same as 'fabrication'.    

Here's an example of the differences:

Fact:  US drops MOAB in Afghanistan

Hyperbolic misstatement would be:  US drops 3 bombs in Afghanistan, kills 3000 soldiers and 5000 civilians, including women and children.

Fabrication:  There is no such thing as an MOAB, so the US could not possibly have dropped one in Afghanistan.

Fact:  Taharrush game'a means 'Group Harrasment' and can involve sexual harassment.   The term was coined as a result of some Egyptians who would harass people, and steal from them, as well as assault women during the Arab Spring.   It is illegal in Egypt and everywhere, and condemned around the world, by Muslims and non-Muslims alike.  

Hyperbolic misstatement:  Tarrahush game'a is a traditional Arabic rape game in which 100s or thousands of men gang rape a woman.  This is a common occurrence and accepted practice in the Arab world and will become common in the Western world too because there are so many Muslims.

Fabrication:  There is no such thing as Tarrahush Game'a anywhere at all.

 

 

Lara Logan was a lying rhymes with witch, eh?

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Apologists for Islam may reluctantly admit that Islam has these beliefs of gender inequality, homophobia, blasphemy, etc. but keep trying to say that Muslims rarely act on these beliefs, so the beliefs are therefore benign.

But when I see the mass rapings that have gone on in Europe, where 2000 Muslim men decide to rape a woman for "fun", (And yes, I realize not all 2000 of them did the physical act of rape, but they were all aiding and abetting it, that's for sure) it seems to me that given the opportunity, most Muslims will quickly drop the charade of embracing Western values.

Now, those beliefs don't seem so benign......

It really is all about values. As much as Islamophiles try to deride those who worry as 'racists' it's about culture, and values, and our assessment of whether immigrants are assimilating and blending in. I don't want to speak for everyone who has serious misgivings about immigration, but I think most of us simply feel too many people with values which are quite contrary to ours are coming in too fast for them to properly assimilate. We worry about them forming permanent outsider communities here the way they seem to have in a number of European countries.

And I would like to note that in those countries, Islamophiles have been the ones setting the rules, and assuring immigrants they have no need of assimilating or changing, and that their own values would be deeply respected - whatever they are. They even have sharia law in the UK, which is backed up by the government and the police. Yes, it's voluntary (for now) but everyone knows a lot of people, particularly women, are forced to use these, despite how misogynistic they are. To do otherwise is almost like blasphemy, almost like saying "God's law" isn't good enough for them. They fear being excluded from their communities. And since those communities have become insulated and outside the mainstream, where would that leave them?

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Omni said:

We change laws all the time Argus, thought you would be aware of that.

I am. That's my point. Laws can change, and will change, depending on what the population wants. The larger the number of homophobic misogynists in a society, the more laws will slowly change to cater to them. Especially if they're politically active and vote in a block.

[Argus]

29 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Canadians are Muslim too.  If you don't want that, then you should direct your energy to changing the constitution to make Canada a Christian state.

I would definitely not want to live in a Christian state. I think what you're leaving out, though, is there are virtually no Christians who want to live in a theocracy either. The number of Muslims who want to live in a theocratic Muslim state, however, exceeds fifty percent in pretty much every Muslim country polled. Certainly it does in the Muslim countries which produce such a large proportion of our immigrants.

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, Argus said:

  I think what you're leaving out, though, is there are virtually no Christians who want to live in a theocracy either. The number of Muslims who want to live in a theocratic Muslim state, however, exceeds fifty percent in pretty much every Muslim country polled. Certainly it does in the Muslim countries which produce such a large proportion of our immigrants.

Agreed on the first point, but on the 2nd surely the ones who come here want to.

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

Agreed on the first point, but on the 2nd surely the ones who come here want to.

I would suggest by far the primary motivations for Muslims who come here are either economic or safety. I have never heard of any Muslim immigrant who said "Boy, I'm so glad to get away from all those damn rules based on Islam and Sharia and live in a secular society!"

[Bonam]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Agreed on the first point, but on the 2nd surely the ones who come here want to.

Surely? The Christian missionaries who came to the new world weren't coming here to escape Christianity and embrace the way of life of the "savages". They came here to impose their beliefs on the existing population. How many of those people who now "come here" might lean more towards the idea of eventually reshaping Canada to be more like their homeland, rather than themselves assimilating? We don't know. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Bonam

[dialamah]

11 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Lara Logan was a lying rhymes with witch, eh?

 

 

I would call this "changing the topic because I can't refute what she said".  

What happened to Lara Logan was horrific, absolutely devastating.  Along with that, both male and female Muslims tried to help, protecting her when they could and beating back the mob, as did the Muslim soldiers who rescued her.   You and Goddess and Argus trying to make an out-of-control mob and criminal behavior by men as the defining characteristics of all Muslims is just wrong.    

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by dialamah

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Bonam said:

Surely? The Christian missionaries who came to the new world weren't coming here to escape Christianity and embrace the way of life of the "savages".  

That's a bad analogy.

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

I would suggest by far the primary motivations for Muslims who come here are either economic or safety. I have never heard of any Muslim immigrant who said "Boy, I'm so glad to get away from all those damn rules based on Islam and Sharia and live in a secular society!"

No, but they 'want' to come to a secular society by definition.

[Omni]

7 minutes ago, Argus said:

I am. That's my point. Laws can change, and will change, depending on what the population wants. The larger the number of homophobic misogynists in a society, the more laws will slowly change to cater to them. Especially if they're politically active and vote in a block.

Many of the people who immigrate here, that you seem to be so afraid of, are doing so to escape such laws, so I doubt they will decide to try and rearrange our society into the ones they fled.