Too much religion makes people dumb

[Argus]

I've been watching some videos on people who talk about Islam, and by coincidence, also saw a CNN show the other night on the Haradi, the ultra Orthodox Jews that now make up about 10% of the population of Israel. Part of the show focused on a Haradi family. They seemed like very pleasant people, but absolutely unyielding. Nothing mattered but the Torah. Male Haradi do not work. They spend all day praying and studying the Torah. THEIR ENTIRE LIFE. The women have babies - lots of them - and take care of the family and sometimes work when welfare doesn't bring in enough. Young Haradi boys spent 10-12 hours a day, every day except the Sabbath, at school. But only one hour is on 'secular' things like arithmetic, say, and writing. All the rest is studying the Torah. To me this is, frankly, child abuse. The kid in the show, about 9 years old, looked exhausted on his return home, and still faced a couple of hours of homework.

I was also watching videos talking about the Islamic golden age. There was a time, between 800-1100 AD when Muslims were the greatest scholars in the world. Then a new philosophy took hold. Science was merely trying to explain how things worked, but you didn't need that for God explained everything. Learning about math and science and such took your mind away from the beauty of Gods word. As this took hold, scholars in the Muslim world began to focus on the Koran and Hadith to the exclusion of pretty much everything else. This explains how the Muslim world fell behind the Christian world, and never caught up. Even today, the Muslim world has little interest in academics beyond studying Islam. For all the great wealth of the gulf states they have invested none of it in homegrown education. Everything in their countries which requires technical knowledge is done by westerners. Singapore, Japan, South Korea and China have a number of great universities. The Muslim world, 1.6 billion people, has none. When it comes to Nobel prizes, about 200 have been won by Jews. Muslims have won 12, though there are ten times more Muslims, and half their Nobels have been peace prizes given by hopeful Swedes and most of the rest by Muslims working in the West.

The conclusion would seem to be you can be deeply devoted to religion or to education, but you can't generally be both. You choose the form your enlightenment will follow and that's that. 

[DogOnPorch]

"If those books are in agreement with the Quran, we have no need of them; and if these are opposed to the Quran, destroy them."

---Caliph Omar on the Burning of the Great Library

[Bonam]

42 minutes ago, Argus said:

The Muslim world, 1.6 billion people, has none. When it comes to Nobel prizes, about 200 have been won by Jews. Muslims have won 12, though there are ten times more Muslims

Correction: there are 100 times more Muslims than Jews, not ten times (about 16 million Jews, 1.6 billion Muslims). 

[Goddess]

I think cognitive dissonance comes into play a lot, too.

How else do you explain why seemingly intelligent people can completely reject evolution, a science supported by modern medicine, anatomy, genetics, chemistry, paleontology, geology, and much more, and truly believe it makes less sense than a millennia old fairytale about a talking snake, a dirt man, and a rib woman.

I had a religious devotee argue at length that "the fact" that men have one less rib than women is proof of creation.

[betsy]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

The conclusion would seem to be you can be deeply devoted to religion or to education, but you can't generally be both. You choose the form your enlightenment will follow and that's that. 

 

No, you can't make that sweeping conclusion. 

 

With Christianity, you can have both....because Christian faith is also based on reason.  Christians are required to be discerning in searching for the truth.  Having been given critical thinking (intelligence) that we can discern and exercise our free will.

Edited April 11, 2017 by betsy

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Bonam said:

Correction: there are 100 times more Muslims than Jews, not ten times (about 16 million Jews, 1.6 billion Muslims). 

You're right. I would edit it to say that but apparently they've moved the editing lock forward so you can't even do that on the same day you post something.

[Rue]

45 minutes ago, Goddess said:

 

I had a religious devotee argue at length that "the fact" that men have one less rib than women is proof of creation.

Men's brain cells deteriorate at a much faster pace then women's after the age of 40. That probably  has a lot to do with the above perception Godess.

Also we have a common condition women don't where I believe we tend to get our heads stuck up our buttoxes quite a bit. I think its an anatomical phenomena from not having large breasts unless we get fat.

But hey you knew that.

That said religion if its used to block critical thinking and therefore is then  able to control people, and so in that sense I agree with Argus.

I do think though that some spirituality such as non invasive mediation  like in Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, where one is taught to meditate and empty the mind is a good thing. It's been shown to have direct benefits to the physical body. Not that I am telling you to join Hari Krishna and hang around airports and harass people..

Religions used to repress emotions, block thoughts, prevent questioning have now been proven medically  to harm the body physically.

Its fascinating the mind-emotion-body connection and just how positive or  destructive certain thought processes or faith processes can be.

That said Godess here is my thought for the day:

" a man with a beard and sandals is not necessarily the messiah-don' trust anyone with long toe nails"

Rue, 2017

 

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

The conclusion would seem to be you can be deeply devoted to religion or to education, but you can't generally be both. You choose the form your enlightenment will follow and that's that. 

You should have said Islam instead of religion.  One can be devoted to their christian religion and attend a christian school or university and be devoted to their education as well.  The work ethic which includes education is part of the christian religion, particularly the Reformed churches and possibly other denominations. 

 

[Rue]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

You're right. I would edit it to say that but apparently they've moved the editing lock forward so you can't even do that on the same day you post something.

Hey its o.k. I knew we wuz outnumbered a long time ago.

[Argus]

42 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

No, you can't make that sweeping conclusion. 

 

With Christianity, you can have both....because Christian faith is also based on reason.  Christians are required to be discerning in searching for the truth.  Having been given critical thinking (intelligence) that we can discern and exercise our free will.

I didn't say if you''re religious, I said TOO MUCH religion. I'd wager you didn't spent 10 hours a day studying the bible when you were a girl, and one hour a day on everything else.

[Argus]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You should have said Islam instead of religion.  One can be devoted to their christian religion and attend a christian school or university and be devoted to their education as well.  The work ethic which includes education is part of the christian religion, particularly the Reformed churches and possibly other denominations.

I think the fact the Muslim world believes only religion is an extremely important part of why they've fallen behind - perhaps THE most important. But they aren't alone, as the example of the Haradi demonstrates. And if their numbers continue to grow as fast as they have been people might one day think of Israel as that backwater place full of ignorant religious fanatics, much as many of us now regard the Muslim world.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Argus

[Rue]

46 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

No, you can't make that sweeping conclusion. 

 

With Christianity, you can have both....because Christian faith is also based on reason.  Christians are required to be discerning in searching for the truth.  Having been given critical thinking (intelligence) that we can discern and exercise our free will.

Its not always the case. I believe the point Argus was making is that extreme fundamentalist religious belief I s not necessarily based on reason. That's his point.

A lot of religious beliefs taught are not based on reason but faith and tooo often blind obedient faith that suspends or prohibits critical reasoning.

That's a potential problem with ALL religions.

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

I think the fact the Muslim world believes only religion is an extremely important part of why they've fallen behind - perhaps THE most important. But they aren't alone, as the example of the Haradi demonstrates. And if their numbers continue to grow as fast as they have been people might one day think of Israel as that backwater place full of ignorant religious fanatics.

You said the Haradi were about 10% of the population of Israel.  I saw that program the other night also.  I don't think they will grow that much.  There are probably a number of different sects.  But the difference between them is they still live in a democracy in Israel.  They have basic freedoms which the Muslim world does not have and are probably outnumbered by about 100 to 1 in the middle east, or maybe 1000 to 1.  It's a sad situation but not much we can do about it, except put up a wall.

[blackbird]

The heading for this subject is not something I would choose.  If one is following the teachings of the bible (and few of us are strictly speaking), how does one say it is too much.  But if one is in the wrong religion, then any amount is too much.

[betsy]

12 minutes ago, Argus said:

I didn't say if you''re religious, I said TOO MUCH religion. I'd wager you didn't spent 10 hours a day studying the bible when you were a girl, and one hour a day on everything else.

Okay.  I misunderstood.

[Goddess]

22 minutes ago, Rue said:

I do think though that some spirituality such as non invasive mediation  like in Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, where one is taught to meditate and empty the mind is a good thing. It's been shown to have direct benefits to the physical body.

It would be nice if more religions focused on compassion, rather than enforcing rules that are basically just designed to separate people into "us" vs. "them".

[betsy]

10 minutes ago, Goddess said:

It would be nice if more religions focused on compassion, rather than enforcing rules that are basically just designed to separate people into "us" vs. "them".

 

Relativists do that. 

They twist their scriptures to make it inclusive, and politically correct.  They can even make their own rules.

 

Edited April 11, 2017 by betsy

[Goddess]

10 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

Relativists do that. 

They twist their scriptures to make it inclusive, and politically correct.  They can even make their own rules.

 

Yes, yes....everyone "twists" the scriptures except your group.  LOL

 

[betsy]

4 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Yes, yes....everyone "twists" the scriptures except your group.  LOL

 

 

 

I didn't say Christianity doesn't have its share of scripture-twisting. Somebody even came up with the Queen James Bible, for crying out loud!

 

I mean.....in the end, it all boils down to our own reason why we get into religion.  

Edited April 11, 2017 by betsy

[Goddess]

24 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

 

I didn't say Christianity doesn't have its share of scripture-twisting. Somebody even came up with the Queen James Bible, for crying out loud!

 

I mean.....in the end, it all boils down to our own reason why we get into religion.  

Haha, I know....I meant that everyone thinks everyone else twists scriptures, not just "your" group.

I think you make a good point here:  "in the end, it all boils down to our own reason why we get into religion."

My observation is that people choose a religion based on what THEY want.  (I say "choose" a religion, although most people just stay in whatever religion they are born into.)  A religion that stresses submission of women will attract men who like that idea.  A religion that stresses charity work will attract people who find satisfaction in doing that.  Some people can't function without someone telling them exactly what's right and wrong and so they like a religion that is very black/white on issues.

[Wilber]

5 hours ago, blackbird said:

You said the Haradi were about 10% of the population of Israel.  I saw that program the other night also.  I don't think they will grow that much.  There are probably a number of different sects.  But the difference between them is they still live in a democracy in Israel.  They have basic freedoms which the Muslim world does not have and are probably outnumbered by about 100 to 1 in the middle east, or maybe 1000 to 1.  It's a sad situation but not much we can do about it, except put up a wall.

I wonder how tolerant they would be if they ended up running the place. 

[Moonlight Graham]

Christianity took hold, then Rome collapsed, and then dark ages took hold until the Enlightenment.  Coincidence?

[Moonlight Graham]

6 hours ago, Goddess said:

It would be nice if more religions focused on compassion, rather than enforcing rules that are basically just designed to separate people into "us" vs. "them".

The rules are made for one thing: control.  And the threat of God's wrath or eternal damnation to hell is a tool to provoke fear in order to keep everyone in check so they follow the rules.

[betsy]

7 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Christianity took hold, then Rome collapsed, and then dark ages took hold until the Enlightenment.  Coincidence?

 

No!  Not even close!

  Dark Ages and collapse of Rome is blamed on Christianity - as posted by an anti-Christian -

is that a coincidence?  NO!    

 

Quote

 

8 Reasons Why Rome Fell

 

The Edict of Milan legalized Christianity in 313, and it later became the state religion in 380. These decrees ended centuries of persecution, but they may have also eroded the traditional Roman values system. Christianity displaced the polytheistic Roman religion, which viewed the emperor as having a divine status, and also shifted focus away from the glory of the state and onto a sole deity. Meanwhile, popes and other church leaders took an increased role in political affairs, further complicating governance.

The 18th-century historian Edward Gibbon was the most famous proponent of this theory, but his take has since been widely criticized.

While the spread of Christianity may have played a small role in curbing Roman civic virtue, most scholars now argue that its influence paled in comparison to military, economic and administrative factors.

 

 

http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/8-reasons-why-rome-fell

 

 

 

What is "Dark Ages?"  It's an inaccurate term.

 

Quote

The term employs traditional light-versus-darkness imagery to contrast the era's "darkness" with earlier and later periods of "light".^[3] The concept of a "Dark Age" originated in the 1330s with the Italian scholar Petrarch, who regarded the post-Roman centuries as "dark" compared to the light of classical antiquity.

 

Many modern scholars avoid the term altogether due to its negative connotations, finding it misleading and inaccurate.^[9][10][11] The original definition remains in popular use,^[1][2][12] and popular culture often employs it as a vehicle to depict the Middle Ages as a time of backwardness, extending its pejorative use and expanding its scope

 

In the 19th century scholars began to recognize the accomplishments of the period, which challenged the image a time exclusively of darkness and decay.

 

The rise of archaeology in the 20th century has shed light on the period, offering a more nuanced understanding of its achievements.^[13] Other terms of periodization have come to the fore: Late Antiquity, the Early Middle Ages, and the Great Migrations, depending on which aspects of culture are being emphasized.

 

Today, on the rare occasions when the term is used by historians, it is intended to be neutral and express the idea that the period often seems 'dark' from the scarcity of historical record, and artistic and cultural output.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography)

 

 

 

As for the so-called age of "enlightenment?" It's nothing more than a bunch of secular/atheist DRAMA KINGS!  The constant, and forever-whiners!  Typical with today's secularists/atheists - they took the term out of context! 

 

 

Quote

 

Enlightenment

During the Age of Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries, many critical thinkers saw religion as antithetical to reason. For them the Middle Ages, or "Age of Faith", was therefore the opposite of the Age of Reason.^[29] Kant and Voltaire were vocal in attacking the Middle Ages as a period of social regress dominated by religion, while Gibbon in The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire expressed contempt for the "rubbish of the Dark Ages".^[30] Yet just as Petrarch, seeing himself at the cusp of a "new age", was criticising the centuries before his own time, so too were Enlightenment writers.

Consequently, an evolution had occurred in at least three ways. Petrarch's original metaphor of light versus dark has expanded over time, implicitly at least.

Even if later humanists no longer saw themselves living in a dark age, their times were still not light enough for 18th-century writers who saw themselves as living in the real Age of Enlightenment, while the period to be condemned stretched to include what we now call Early Modern times.

Additionally, Petrarch's metaphor of darkness, which he used mainly to deplore what he saw as a lack of secular achievement, was sharpened to take on a more explicitly anti-religious and anti-clerical meaning.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography)

 

 

For evidence -

based from mostly  senseless posts given by secularists in the other thread, Evidence for God -

do secularists/atheists seem "enlightened" to you?

Edited April 12, 2017 by betsy

[betsy]

 

Uhhhh.....based from what I stated above regarding "enlightenment,"  maybe Argus need to change the title of his thread. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by betsy