Free Speech or Hate Speech?

[betsy]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I hear ya!  I really do - it seems as if the only thing we hear about are "Muslim terrorists blow up another market"  right?   And I really do get the fear and anxiety some people fear when there seems this constant barrage on the news.  If I let myself, I could buy into it.  

But then I think about what people do to each other every single day of the year.   Americans, Canadians, Britains, Black people, White people, Brown people.   Just because there is no shared ideology between these different murderous people does not mean it's 'better' or 'less scary'.  If I'm facing someone intent on killing me, it hardly matters to me in that moment if they're doing it because "Islam" or because they want my shoes.   If I'm going to worry about who might rape or kill me next week, I should worry about my partner first, followed by friends, followed by Canadians that I don't know well or don't know at all.  A terrorist is the least likely person to be killing me.   A Muslim is the least likely person to rape me.

The thing is though, I'm familiar with my partner, with my friends and generally familiar with acquaintances and strangers so I don't worry about them - even though they pose a much larger threat to my life than does any terrorist.   Familiarity with a threat makes one feel safe.  Because people are unfamiliar with Muslims and know next to nothing about Islam except what anti-Islam sites tell them, they see all the media attention given to terror attacks or the Muslim who engages in illegal behavior, and they imagine this scary "thing" out there in the world.

This is why I consider this fear of terrorists in Canada and the US irrational.   

If the news featured stories, every single day, on men who had killed their wives all over the world, repeated the stories, analyzed the reasons, laid wreaths and lowered flags for all those dead women, what do you think would happen?   Even if the featured daily news stories about what men who kill other men, daily, with all the attention and focus given to terror attacks, what do you think would be the result?   For all of us in Western countries, it's the men of our own country and culture who are the most dangerous to us.    So why aren't we afraid of men?  That would seem like a much more rational fear than fear of terrorists.

But we're irrational - we fear the least likely event the most.   Thus the fear that is expressed toward Muslims in Canada is based on irrationality. 

If we lived in the Middle East, then fearing terrorists would at least be more rational. 

 

The middle east is coming here!  Heck, it's arrived, I guess!

 

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by betsy

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

You are wrong. Repeat wrong.

M-103
Systemic racism and religious discriminationText of the MotionThat, in the opinion of the House, the government should: (a) recognize the need to quell the increasing public climate of hate and fear; (b) condemn Islamophobia and all forms of systemic racism and religious discrimination and take note of House of Commons’ petition e-411 and the issues raised by it; and (c) request that the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage undertake a study on how the government could (i) develop a whole-of-government approach to reducing or eliminating systemic racism and religious discrimination including Islamophobia, in Canada, while ensuring a community-centered focus with a holistic response through evidence-based policy-making, (ii) collect data to contextualize hate crime reports and to conduct needs assessments for impacted communities, and that the Committee should present its findings and recommendations to the House no later than 240 calendar days from the adoption of this motion, provided that in its report, the Committee should make recommendations that the government may use to better reflect the enshrined rights and freedoms in the Constitution Acts, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

 

Perhaps you could highlight the parts where it says "eliminate free speech" or "make it illegal to criticize Islam" because somehow I just don't see those words.  

I'll wait.

 

 

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Perhaps you could highlight the parts where it says "eliminate free speech" or "make it illegal to criticize Islam" because somehow I just don't see those words.  

I'll wait.

 

 

 

What's the plan for eliminating "Islamophobia"?

[?Impact]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

What's the plan for eliminating "Islamophobia"?

The motion is to study the issue, and perhaps develop a plan. There is no plan, what part of that is hard for you to grasp?

[drummindiver]

14 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

This is hyperbole.  If there were anyone who could criticize cultural matters objectively without resorting to hyperbole I would read them regularly.

Hyperbole to state that a motion to restrict my right to criticize something is illegal is wrong?

Really?

What happens when it's passed? Do you think we're having this conversation or is it illegal because I am seen to be critical of Islam. Seen, hell, I am critical of Islam.

[dialamah]

48 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

I didn't say he's not allowed to say it. 

I'm saying it is an example that  Islamophobia also means, you aren't allowed to criticize!  Imagine that!  John Tory labels the protesters Islamophobes!  For what?  For expressing their opinion:  "Ban Islam."  "No to Islam."  "Muslims Are Terrorists!"

Those are all opinions!

People may not like what's being said, but we STILL have our right to express our opinion! 

 

 

 

 

Exactly!  He said they were Islamophobic, not that they couldn't do or say whatever the heck they wanted within the confines of the law.   Why do you suppose calling them Islampahobic meant they weren't allowed to do or say what they did?  

Quote

The reaction of a leader like Tory shows us where this motion is heading!  Wake up, folks!

[DogOnPorch]

 

2 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

The motion is to study the issue, and perhaps develop a plan. There is no plan, what part of that is hard for you to grasp?

Look...you can repeat it a thousand times. The thing still reads eliminating Islamophobia.

What's the plan for eliminating Islamophobia?

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, drummindiver said:

Hyperbole to ...

No.  There will be no law passed that makes it illegal to criticize a religion.  

[dialamah]

Just now, drummindiver said:

Hyperbole to state that a motion to restrict my right to criticize something is illegal is wrong?

Really?

What happens when it's passed? Do you think we're having this conversation or is it illegal because I am seen to be critical of Islam. Seen, hell, I am critical of Islam.

 

Waiting for you to show me in so many words where it restricts your right to criticism Islam or even indulge in islamphobic comments.   

If it passes, they'll do a "study".   This isn't a law.  

[?Impact]

Just now, drummindiver said:

What happens when it's passed?

Then it will be studied in committee. Write your MP,  make a submission to the committee, you have ample opportunity to have your opinion heard. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

I hear ya!  I really do - it seems as if the only thing we hear about are "Muslim terrorists blow up another market"  right?   And I really do get the fear and anxiety some people fear when there seems this constant barrage on the news.  If I let myself, I could buy into it.  

But then I think about what people do to each other every single day of the year.   Americans, Canadians, Britains, Black people, White people, Brown people.   Just because there is no shared ideology between these different murderous people does not mean it's 'better' or 'less scary'.  If I'm facing someone intent on killing me, it hardly matters to me in that moment if they're doing it because "Islam" or because they want my shoes.   If I'm going to worry about who might rape or kill me next week, I should worry about my partner first, followed by friends, followed by Canadians that I don't know well or don't know at all.  A terrorist is the least likely person to be killing me.   A Muslim is the least likely person to rape me.

The thing is though, I'm familiar with my partner, with my friends and generally familiar with acquaintances and strangers so I don't worry about them - even though they pose a much larger threat to my life than does any terrorist.   Familiarity with a threat makes one feel safe.  Because people are unfamiliar with Muslims and know next to nothing about Islam except what anti-Islam sites tell them, they see all the media attention given to terror attacks or the Muslim who engages in illegal behavior, and they imagine this scary "thing" out there in the world.

This is why I consider this fear of terrorists in Canada and the US irrational.   

If the news featured stories, every single day, on men who had killed their wives all over the world, repeated the stories, analyzed the reasons, laid wreaths and lowered flags for all those dead women, what do you think would happen?   Even if the featured daily news stories about what men who kill other men, daily, with all the attention and focus given to terror attacks, what do you think would be the result?   For all of us in Western countries, it's the men of our own country and culture who are the most dangerous to us.    So why aren't we afraid of men?  That would seem like a much more rational fear than fear of terrorists.

But we're irrational - we fear the least likely event the most.   Thus the fear that is expressed toward Muslims in Canada is based on irrationality. 

If we lived in the Middle East, then fearing terrorists would at least be more rational. 

 

I'm not afraid of terrorists where I live.  I'm afraid of people like those protesting in your OP being told they can't.  I can see being afraid of suicide bombers in some locations, though, as I said.  I would not go to a Shiite shrine on one of their holy days...

The point I made about suicide bombers is one of numeracy.  How do so many people want to kill themselves, for in many cases, not much more than destroying a market full of people who disagree with them slightly.  I can only assume they are being brainwashed by the cowards who dare not do it themselves.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

No.  There will be no law passed that makes it illegal to criticize a religion.  

 

Famous last words...

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

I'm not afraid of terrorists where I live.  I'm afraid of people like those protesting in your OP being told they can't.  I can see being afraid of suicide bombers in some locations, though, as I said.  I would not go to a Shiite shrine on one of their holy days...

The point I made about suicide bombers is one of numeracy.  How do so many people want to kill themselves, for in many cases, not much more than destroying a market full of people who disagree with them slightly.  I can only assume they are being brainwashed by the cowards who dare not do it themselves.

 

I wasn't particularly afraid of terrorists in downtown London, either.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't think 'Islamophobia' includes legitimate criticism of Islam.

Yes, but with all due respect, what you think isn't going to influence events down the road.  Even in this setting, I can't get any kind of consensus on what Islamophobia is, or even if I am one.  I have many legitimate criticisms of Islam, and I would not hold a placard that simply said "No to Islam", but I would support those who do.

[drummindiver]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

No.  There will be no law passed that makes it illegal to criticize a religion.  

...and I disagree. The current climate politically is to cave to special interest groups of all stripes, and Islam is one of the most vocal. And with current immigration policies only going to get louder.

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

Yes, but with all due respect, what you think isn't going to influence events down the road.  

What we all think collectively will influence events down the road.  So it's on those who want to convince people to figure out the best way to do that.  

[drummindiver]

5 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Then it will be studied in committee. Write your MP,  make a submission to the committee, you have ample opportunity to have your opinion heard. 

Believe me, I have, as I've written in other threads.

He told me his is supporting it. I told him I no longer support him.

[Guest]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

What we all think collectively will influence events down the road.  So it's on those who want to convince people to figure out the best way to do that.  

I think this is a point that people make.  The demographics of "we all" change constantly.

[Michael Hardner]

5 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

The current climate politically is to cave to special interest groups of all stripes...

I'm sorry but this is 100% incorrect.  If you look in the news, people are looking to bring in religious bans and loyalty tests targeting Muslims now.  We have politicians that are whipping up hate, and extremism without shame.

We just had Muslims slaughtered in this country, in the current political environment.  I see the need to act on real risks, not imagined ones.

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I think this is a point that people make.  The demographics of "we all" change constantly.

Of course, and what of it ?  You have to convince people if you want to make change.  Fear might do it, but you will also divide people as we've seen.

[?Impact]

3 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

Believe me, I have, as I've written in other threads.

He told me his is supporting it. I told him I no longer support him.

You can also submit directly to the committee, bypassing your MP.  You will have to wait until they actually table anything to do with it, but the motion was to send it to the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage I believe.

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[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

Of course, and what of it ?  You have to convince people if you want to make change.  Fear might do it, but you will also divide people as we've seen.

Or bring in a huge amount of immigrants with different values.

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

Or bring in a huge amount of immigrants with different values.

Yes, that would presumably work... over decades I guess.  

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

Yes, that would presumably work... over decades I guess.  

 

It will work.

[?Impact]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

Or bring in a huge amount of immigrants with different values.

or reduce immigration, etc. Yes, those are good topics that we as a country should be discussing.