eyeball Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 12 minutes ago, bcsapper said: Crime is crime. Chopping someone's head off and trying to eat it is a crime. It's hard to imagine someone sane doing it so it would be someone insane. The point is that illness is not a crime. You cannot do illness justice. It's just really unfortunate shit that happens and could happen to any one of us. All this blather about justice just makes it worse. Like I said what are you going to do if the flu your kid brings home kills your mother? To state that psychiatry can ensure this person won't succumb to his illness again is to believe in fairy tales and quackery. No, it's to believe in science, not with100% infallibility but when it's in the high 90's...c'mon, get a grip, take an anxiety pill or fan yourself or something. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, eyeball said: What do we do if the dictator starts listening to the voices in his head? You need to think stuff thru a little more. When I said I prefer a dictatorship I was of course joking (and yes a system that the dictator hears God's voice we do have it somewhere as we speak) but in any system justice needs to be served. That is a BALANCE between the rights of the victim and the murderer/rapist. The way that our justice system is now as I see it is that the murderer/rapist has all the rights to defense and a trail and the victim had nobody defending her when she was being raped and murdered. This is an INJUSTICE system. Edited February 12, 2017 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: When I said I prefer a dictatorship I was of course joking (and yes a system that the dictator hears God's voice we do have it somewhere as we speak) but in any system justice needs to be served. That is a BALANCE between the rights of the victim and the convict. What convict God-damn it?! There is no freaking convict here. There are only victims, Tim McLean, Will Baker and the people closest to them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 5 minutes ago, eyeball said: The point is that illness is not a crime. You cannot do illness justice. It's just really unfortunate shit that happens and could happen to any one of us. All this blather about justice just makes it worse. Like I said what are you going to do if the flu your kid brings home kills your mother? No, it's to believe in science, not with100% infallibility but when it's in the high 90's...c'mon, get a grip, take an anxiety pill or fan yourself or something. I don't need one. I'm not the one comparing a decapitating cannibal to a kid with the flu. I don't believe psychiatry has a success rate in the high 90% range, but it's not something I would claim to know for sure. I do know this. There is no way to ensure Mr. Li will not regress. That's reason enough to keep him contained. It's not like he was a shoplifter or a pot smoker, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 Vince Li is a murdering murderer, convicted or not. Plus he has atrocious dining manners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, bcsapper said: I don't need one. I'm not the one comparing a decapitating cannibal to a kid with the flu. Neither am I if you look more closely. Quote I don't believe psychiatry has a success rate in the high 90% range, but it's not something I would claim to know for sure. I was alluding to the probability of his doctors assessment which I'm quite certain must have been very high (or low as the case may be in terms of becoming ill again) wouldn't you think? The success rate of psychiatry with the mentality ill in general is probably a lot worse given the short shrift it usually gets due to really shity public attitudes and ignorance. Quote I do know this. There is no way to ensure Mr. Li will not regress. That's reason enough to keep him contained. It's not like he was a shoplifter or a pot smoker, after all. You are looking for 100% certainty which is so impossible it's irrational. So irrational that even medical and legal experts can't allow for or justify it. To do so would be to surrender to the mob I guess. You really wasn't to go there? Where would you stop once you got going? Edited February 12, 2017 by eyeball 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 9 minutes ago, eyeball said: Neither am I if you look more closely. I was alluding to the probability of his doctors assessment which I'm quite certain must have been very high (or low as the case may be in terms of becoming ill again) wouldn't you think? The success rate of psychiatry with the mentality ill in general is probably a lot worse given the short shrift it usually gets due to really shity public attitudes and ignorance. You are looking for 100% certainty which is so impossible it's irrational. So irrational that even medical and legal experts can't allow for or justify it. To do so would be to surrender to the mob I guess. You really wasn't to go there? Where would you stop once you got going? No mob. To expect 100% in a case such as this is not unreasonable, as the alternative, to keep the perpetrator in custody forever, is also not at all unreasonable. Like I said, this was not some petty crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 Well, more informed people than us think otherwise so, it is what it is. I feel for Tim McLean's family but I'm not about to put up with any crap about punishing people for getting sick. That would be a real crime. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 29 minutes ago, eyeball said: ...but I'm not about to put up with any crap about punishing people for getting sick. That would be a real crime. Nonsense....and using the stupid flu analogy above, children with the flu are not welcomed to school and if it's bad enough, they are quarantined by the government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 6 hours ago, Omni said: Turcotte was found guilty at re-trial. There has not been a re trial in this case. Big difference. What's the difference? Li should be retried now that he is deemed sane or whatever term is used Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal 9000 Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, eyeball said: He didn't decide to become ill any more than your kids decide to, That's why I keep talking about the flu. You mean to say you really don't get the parallel here? Do you realize just how many millions of deaths have been caused by influenza? Again I ask why don't you punish your kids for catching it? I know you said you didn't punish them when they did but you didn't actually say why. Think about it for minute. Just so you know It's a long well established fact that far far more schizophrenics die at the hands of healthy people than the other way around. Because your parallel is a really stupid and misleading one that's why. As usual half the shtick you guys subscribe too is forever using the government's force of law to address potential threats that are so statistically small its ridiculous and yet the real clear and present dangers, like legal alcohol for example, slide. You're actually comparing punishing this guy who chopped off a persons head to somebody having the flu? But then, you totally disregard alcoholism as "really stupid and misleading". Seriously? Alcoholism is about impaired judgement...the court is basically saying that this guy had impaired judgement. FFS, get some perspective man! I can only surmise that you agree with letting this person off scot free? Is that right? P.S - And yes, he made the decision to go off his meds - therefore, he should be responsible for what happens while off his meds. Edited February 12, 2017 by Hal 9000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal 9000 Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 5 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: There should be harsher penalties for crimes against defenseless. Women and children in most cases are physically weaker than men. Wait a minute! Why am I always hearing that women are just as strong as men - not to mention...smarter? Your comment is so chauvanistic it's ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal 9000 Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 4 hours ago, Omni said: Then of course there are the situations where DNA has no bearing but the accused hasn't the money to hire a competent lawyer. WTF are you guys spouting about DNA. He did the crime - we know it for an absolute fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal 9000 Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 3 hours ago, eyeball said: To speak about illness and crime in the same breath is to ignore the success of psychiatric treatment not to mention the stubbornness of medieval attitudes. What are talking about treatment for, the guy doesn't even have to his meds let alone have treatment - and besides, if treatment was so effective, why did he end up off his meds, killing and cannibalizing a guy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 "I'm an alcoholic. I killed someone while driving my vehicle. When I get drunk, I have no idea what I'm doing anymore. But alcoholism's a disease, so I can't be held criminally responsible." See what utter rubbish this argument is? Also it's my understanding that ignorance of the law is not an exemption of the law. If a person is somehow unaware what they're doing is wrong, it's still a crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 10 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Nonsense....and using the stupid flu analogy above, children with the flu are not welcomed to school and if it's bad enough, they are quarantined by the government. You mean they don't give them a good strapping too? Why on Earth not? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 Just now, eyeball said: You mean they don't give them a good strapping too? Why on Earth not? Because that would be more dumb liberal fantasy and exaggeration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 8 hours ago, Hal 9000 said: You're actually comparing punishing this guy who chopped off a persons head to somebody having the flu? No. I'm comparing the reactions of healthy people to illness and wondering why its so different. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, Hal 9000 said: Wait a minute! Why am I always hearing that women are just as strong as men - not to mention...smarter? Your comment is so chauvanistic it's ridiculous. This is a very evil response as you completely distorted my comment just to win a debate (you completely ignored the word "Physically weaker" I used in my comment). Does it worth it that much to win a debate to lie and distort? I have always said women in general are smarter (I know it first hand being a university teacher for years) and have bigger hearts (generally speaking bigger hearts and minds but smaller body) BUT it is also a fact that generally speaking women are physically weaker than men (most not as tall without as much muscles and heavy punch force and weight that generally men enjoy) that is why there is so much violence against them. Being weaker physically is a fact I stated. I am a strong feminist and you tried to make me look bad just to win a debate. Shame. Edited February 12, 2017 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 8 hours ago, Hal 9000 said: What are talking about treatment for, the guy doesn't even have to his meds let alone have treatment - and besides, if treatment was so effective, why did he end up off his meds, killing and cannibalizing a guy? You don't even know the history of his case do you? He hadn't even been diagnosed before the incident on the bus, there was no medication for him to take. Now he is very likely administered a monthly injection of risperdal. Its a very effective anti-pyschotic medicine and the manner by which its administered vastly reduces the likelihood of him being "off his meds". If he doesn't come in for his shot you can bet alarms start ringing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 17 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Because that would be more dumb liberal fantasy and exaggeration. It would be more in line with conservative desires to replace treatment with punishment and vengeance with justice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, eyeball said: It would be more in line with conservative desires to replace treatment with punishment and vengeance with justice. Not in this case...which is just more of the usual liberal thug hugging. Canada's new tourism campaign slogan: "Murderers welcome!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 12 hours ago, eyeball said: You are looking for 100% certainty which is so impossible it's irrational. So irrational that even medical and legal experts can't allow for or justify it. To do so would be to surrender to the mob I guess. You really wasn't to go there? Where would you stop once you got going? 100% is totally achievable. Put him in Oak Ridges, an institution designed for people with mental issues who commit crime. Or criminals with mental health issues. However you want to look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 57 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said: I have always said women in general are smarter (I know it first hand being a university teacher for years) and have bigger hearts You have any proof of this? No? What ridiculous assertions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 29 minutes ago, drummindiver said: You have any proof of this? No? What ridiculous assertions. Did you read what you quoted. I said I was a teacher and had hundreds of male and female students and in exams and final grading and industriousness female students generally speaking and on average did better. What kind of proof do you want? Like a lie detector device to test people who is smarter?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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