Calgary Bus Murderer Now Free

[blueblood]

10 minutes ago, eyeball said:

What medication?

Everything else you wrote is also a bunch of garbage.

http://m.torontosun.com/2017/02/06/warning-disturbing-content-closing-in-on-a-disturbing-outcome

He went off his meds.

 

you can stop spewing your mental illness apologist propaganda.  Vince li is a ticking time bomb and if you think he will stay on his meds I have a bridge to sell you.

[eyeball]

38 minutes ago, blueblood said:

http://m.torontosun.com/2017/02/06/warning-disturbing-content-closing-in-on-a-disturbing-outcome

He went off his meds.

What meds, prescribed by who?  You figure schizophrenics just diagnose themselves and purchase anti-psychotics off the shelf like it was cough medicine or something?  
 

Quote

 

Q. When did you begin to experience schizophrenia?

A. In 2004. I didn’t know what it was. I now know what it is. I began to hear voices that normal people do not hear. I thought I heard the voice of God telling me to write down my journey. The voice told me that I was the third story of the Bible. That I was like the second coming of Jesus. I was to save people from a space-alien attack. That is why I travelled around the country. I am not sure of all the places I went to. I now know that it was schizophrenia I was suffering from.

Vincent Li

Source: National Post.

 

 

 

Quote

 

His doctors described him as a model patient who had not been treated for schizophrenia at the time of his attack. After his arrest and placement at the hospital, he responded well to medication and understood that he must continue to take it to keep his illness at bay, they said.

Huffington Post

 

 

 

Quote

you can stop spewing your mental illness apologist propaganda. Vince li is a ticking time bomb and if you think he will stay on his meds I have a bridge to sell you.

The Sun is completely full of shit and so is anyone who peddles it. It's as simple as that.

I have to say the arguments that have been presented so far here today in the case against Will Baker are about as lame and flat out wrong as it gets around here. Maybe everyone's waiting to see if Rona Ambose can come up with something more substantive than than it "doesn't seem right".  OTOH Ambrose is probably casting about for a better argument too and "it just feels wrong" is about the best thing she's hearing bubbling up from the right-wing base she represents,  I guess it would be a little unseemly to cite things like the prescriptions for lead to the head or the lol's and yuks about the eating habits of schizophrenics, whattya think?

I have to say conservatism is just about the nastiest challenge the mentally ill have to overcome.

[poochy]

I tend to think that we can sacrifice the societal attendance of someone who's only barrier between decapitating someone and not, is a prescription. Now maybe someday that sort of behavior will be normalized and the rest of us 'normals' who don't decapitate people will be locked up, but for now I like my head right where it is thanks.

How anyone could find it necessary to protect this individual is difficult to imagine, probably an illness all it's own, and it's not as though he's being mistreated, he was just removed from society so he can't cut off anyone else's head.  With an attitude like that we might as well not have prison time, or institutionalize anyone for any reason, if this guy is an acceptable risk well Christ there must be 99% of everyone else in prison that should be set free and never should have gone, and if you asked around you would find that about 99% of the rest of us would think that to be crazy, and no, if you're in the 1% it sure as hell isn't because you're smarter than the rest of us.

O, and I would like to add that the idea that conservatives don't care about mental illness is just another example of why this forum is difficult to participate in, the person saying this is a moron, beneath the vast majority of us, and brings all discussions down,  should have been banned long ago.  I just this week had a family member die under suspicious circumstances, someone who attempted suicide more than once, and suffered with mental illness her whole life.  But she never harmed anyone but herself.  Regardless, I cared, so f*** him for saying I don't, and to hell with you for letting swine like that exist here.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Michael Hardner
profanity

[Omni]

On 2/11/2017 at 7:42 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

So democracy means victims have no rights but the murderer/rapist dressed nicely in court gets the lawyer and the jury and the judge and a chance to walk away with all kinds of excuses (yeah God told me so) or technicalities or even when convicted  go on parole soon after and commit another murder/rape and take another victim?. I think then I prefer dictatorship

North Korea is being mentioned a lot lately.

[Omni]

23 hours ago, drummindiver said:

What's the difference?

Li should be retried now that he is deemed sane or whatever term is used 

You need new evidence for that. Being re-habed is not even a consideration.

[Omni]

21 hours ago, Hal 9000 said:

WTF are you guys spouting about DNA.  He did the crime - we know it for an absolute fact.  

You should try following the thread.

[Hal 9000]

7 hours ago, Omni said:

You should try following the thread.

I have...and somehow you guys are trying to pivot to argue against capital punishment, based on wrongful convictions.  A case like this if it as a capital punishment case, as it should be, would have no doubt of innocence.

This sick f*** deserves to be executed. 

Edited February 13, 2017 by Michael Hardner
profanity

[Omni]

6 hours ago, Hal 9000 said:

I have...and somehow you guys are trying to pivot to argue against capital punishment, based on wrongful convictions.  A case like this if it as a capital punishment case, as it should be, would have no doubt of innocence.

This sick f*** deserves to be executed. 

You either have a death penalty law or you don't. Wouldn't you agree that wrongful convictions is at least one good reason NOT to have it?

Edited February 13, 2017 by Michael Hardner
profanity

[blueblood]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

What meds, prescribed by who?  You figure schizophrenics just diagnose themselves and purchase anti-psychotics off the shelf like it was cough medicine or something?  
 

 

 

The Sun is completely full of shit and so is anyone who peddles it. It's as simple as that.

I have to say the arguments that have been presented so far here today in the case against Will Baker are about as lame and flat out wrong as it gets around here. Maybe everyone's waiting to see if Rona Ambose can come up with something more substantive than than it "doesn't seem right".  OTOH Ambrose is probably casting about for a better argument too and "it just feels wrong" is about the best thing she's hearing bubbling up from the right-wing base she represents,  I guess it would be a little unseemly to cite things like the prescriptions for lead to the head or the lol's and yuks about the eating habits of schizophrenics, whattya think?

I have to say conservatism is just about the nastiest challenge the mentally ill have to overcome.

So $100,000 for the bridge then?  I can take payments in monthly increments.

he went off his meds as per the paper.  What part of skipped his meds don't you understand.

http://mytoba.ca/featured/opinion-keep-vince-li-locked-protect-winnipeg/

you keep playing that fiddle apologizing for nutbars who are waking time bombs when they skip their meds.

i think it's chicken shit that you are an apologist for Vince li when he gets to take a life away and get away with it and gets another shot when mr McLean got senselessly killed.  You don't care that his mother had to bury her son early, you don't care that society has to wonder when Vince li forgets to take his meds.  All you care about is apologizing for crazy people.  Sad.

[drummindiver]

8 hours ago, eyeball said:

What meds, prescribed by who?  You figure schizophrenics just diagnose themselves and purchase anti-psychotics off the shelf like it was cough medicine or something?  

The Sun is completely full of shit and so is anyone who peddles it. It's as simple as that.

I have to say the arguments that have been presented so far here today in the case against Will Baker are about as lame and flat out wrong 

I have to say conservatism is just about the nastiest challenge the mentally ill have to overcome.

Clearly you cherry pick facts per your modus operandi.  Stated in pretty much every article from every publication he willfully skipped his schizophrenic meds. This if nothing else should make him culpable as he was "normalized" and chose his path.

It is estimated over half of all prisoners,  sometimes referred to as convicts or criminals,  has a mental illness. As per left leaning Liberal bleeding heart bs you'd open the gates for them with a pill in their hand and a wee pat on the bum. 

Conservatives help us,   cause liberals won't. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/04/more-than-half-of-prisoners-are-mentally-ill/389682/

Edited February 13, 2017 by drummindiver

[drummindiver]

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

What meds, prescribed by 

I have to say conservatism is just about the nastiest challenge the mentally ill have to overcome.

lol

Face eating man good.

Conservatives bad.

[cannuck]

Rue pretty much nailed the important points in his opening post.  Where the left/right split comes is that from the left, the "rights" of the individual trump (sorry if that choice of word offends anyone on the left) the right of the public to a reasonable effort to protect their/our safety.

NOBODY who kills (and the possible complicating phrase here would be "intentionally kills") another human is "sane" by any standard, but reality is that as has been mentioned, many criminals are to some extent suffering from some mental illness.   So, we jail those with a bit of mental illness, but let one with a genuinely homicidal affliction walk free with NO supervision to ensure he is medicated to a reasonable level of safety?????

What is still missing from this discussion is that Vince Li CHOSE not to medicate.  While the left may not wish to punish him for what he did not "sanely chose" to do (decapitate and canibalize innocent person) nobody is punishing him for what he DID freely chose to do that caused that death.

[eyeball]

9 hours ago, blueblood said:

he went off his meds as per the paper.  What part of skipped his meds don't you understand.

http://mytoba.ca/featured/opinion-keep-vince-li-locked-protect-winnipeg/

I don't understand the part where your source says its a featured opinion.  Maybe you can explain that in better detail.

[eyeball]

11 hours ago, poochy said:

How anyone could find it necessary to protect this individual is difficult to imagine, 

You ever had a loved one become schizophrenic and then have other fearful ignorant loved ones blame you for causing it?

That's the sort of sick twisted world it is out there for families and people with mental illness every single day. 

Quote

 

probably an illness all it's own, and it's not as though he's being mistreated

 

People who lie about Vincent Li are mistreating him and every other person that suffers mental illness along with him. That's why its necessary to protect him. 

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, cannuck said:

What is still missing from this discussion is that Vince Li CHOSE not to medicate.  While the left may not wish to punish him for what he did not "sanely chose" to do (decapitate and canibalize innocent person) nobody is punishing him for what he DID freely chose to do that caused that death.

What's missing from this discussion is evidence as opposed to the opinion that Vincent Li was off his meds.  That evidence will always be missing because it just ain't true. 

[taxme]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

You ever had a loved one become schizophrenic and then have other fearful ignorant loved ones blame you for causing it?

That's the sort of sick twisted world it is out there for families and people with mental illness every single day. 

People who lie about Vincent Li are mistreating him and every other person that suffers mental illness along with him. That's why its necessary to protect him. 

You should be more concerned about protecting the sane people, not the insane ones. This guy will most likely do something tragic once again if he does not take his medicine. Our world has been changed from protecting the victim to protecting the accuser. Common and sense and logic should tell you that this guy is not safe to be left alone. I wonder how you would feel if this guy did not take his medicine anymore and went out and killed one of your family or friends and partially ate them. What is your answer for this? 

[eyeball]

11 minutes ago, taxme said:

I wonder how you would feel if this guy did not take his medicine anymore and went out and killed one of your family or friends and partially ate them. What is your answer for this? 

I'd try my best to think like this.

We spoke to Anne Marie Hagan, a woman whose father was murdered brutally by an axe-wielding, schizophrenic man, who she later forgave.

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/why-canada-should-consider-forgiving-vince-li

 

 

[taxme]

43 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I'd try my best to think like this.

We spoke to Anne Marie Hagan, a woman whose father was murdered brutally by an axe-wielding, schizophrenic man, who she later forgave.

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/why-canada-should-consider-forgiving-vince-li

 

 

You didn't answer my question that I asked of you?  Why not? 

[drummindiver]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

What's missing from this discussion is evidence as opposed to the opinion that Vincent Li was off his meds.  That evidence will always be missing because it just ain't true. 

So if e wasn't off his meds he was on his meds when he did this.

And this makes him less culpable how? 

[Rue]

When asked by the National Post in an interview to explain when he thought he first began hearing voices Mr. Lee, aka Mr. Baker stated the following:

 

When did you begin to experience schizophrenia?

A. In 2004. I didn’t know what it was. I now know what it is. I began to hear voices that normal people do not hear. I thought I heard the voice of God telling me to write down my journey. The voice told me that I was the third story of the Bible. That I was like the second coming of Jesus. I was to save people from a space-alien attack. That is why I travelled around the country. I am not sure of all the places I went to. I now know that it was schizophrenia I was suffering from.

 

Mr. Lee was aware  4 years before he engaged in the attack he did on the bus there was something wrong with h him. So was his family.

He divorced his wife in 2006.

He had few friends and according to the agreed statement of facts in court he was known to be violent.

He emigrated to Canada in 2001, and became a citizen in 2005 and found it impossible to hold down a job.

Here are the agreed statement of facts:

http://blogs.canoe.com/raisinghell/politics/the-story-of-vince-li/

What is NOT clear and remains unclarified is what attempts if any Li made prior to the killing to take medication and seek treatment.

Certain evidence indicates he was in Halifax and released by a psychiatrist after a few hours.

The courts did not pursue inquiries as to his pre-existing medical history because he claimed he could not remember.

According to his ex-wife, she says he was "briefly" hospitalized in 2003 or 2004 after OPP found him along side a highway. His wife said he would disappear for long periods of time, took unexplained bus trips and would ramble.

Now his wife said she was not aware he was on medication. However she also admitted she was unaware where he was when he travelled all over Canada for long periods of time by bus.

One of the things that we will never fully understand is in fact who treated him from 2003 to 2008. It is highly doubtful when he was hospitalized he was never given medication or after he was arrested by the OPP and sent to hospital he was never given medication.

We will never know because Vince Li aka Wil Baker claims he does not remember.

I don't buy it. I also do not buy the clinical picture of a man who was NOT on medication and stopped taking it prior to the murder he committed. Its not consistent with his admitting he knew he was will, could remember he was ill and had schizophrenia. Someone had told him. Doctors can't force medication on people but they don't send them on the road without recommending psychiatric treatment let alone medication.

If a person refused treatment they discharge them.

Eye can call me all the names he wants but the fact is he was hospitalized and automatically this means they would have tried to treat him with medication. Its standard protocol with the homeless who have no fixed address to do a case history. It would have been evident from as his wife says his "ramblings" he was ill. Schizophrenics exhibit disjointed speech patterns that can be picked up by a physician in as little as a minute to 5 minutes.

It is true a formal psychiatric diagnosis of certain illnesses could go on months but not schizophrenia. Its not hard to pick up in adults, especially ones found on the side of the road talking to God.

What we have here is someone who chose to remain unmedicated and untreated which is extremely and unfortunately common with schizophrenics. The assumption they are too insane to know they need medication is an interesting one. Not all schizophrenics fit the legal insanity criteria, its only when they break from reality and have an acute delusional attack they are technically insane. They can function in our world with schizophrenia albeit with extreme difficulty and suffering and no the law does not allow doctors to force medication on them unfortunately until they commit a crime.

That is what happened in this case. His individual rights to refuse medication and treatment were honoured. Its also his Charter of Rights inalienable right to refuse treatment until he shows he is a danger to himself or others

Now Eye can turn this guy into an innocent victim who had no idea he was sick but he did, years before the attack. I don't blame his wife. I don't blame police, I don't even blame the doctors who released him-the system does not allow you to impose treatment on someone until they are convicted of a crime or they hurt themselves or others. I know. I used to represent mentally ill at capacity hearings. To get someone put away against their own wishes is not easy at all. The reason for that is because at one point it was too easy to put people away and so the pendelum swung the other way.

Its a delicate balancing act between individual civil rights and the state intervening and saying social priorities trump individual ones.

Psychiatry is inexact. It changes its criteria for diagnosis constantly as more and more information is learned as to how the brain functions.

In this case its improbable from the temporary Li and his wife gave, neither knew he was a violent ticking time bomb who refused treatment including medication prior to the killing.

Now Besty brought up the point I concede. His refusal to get treatment or take medication the first time will remain in dispute. Me personally I thnk he had sufficient awareness to get help and did not. I doubt I could prove that sufficient awareness in court.

Eye is trying to paint this person as a victim. He's no victim. He is a violent mental patient. He needs supervision. Right now he's living alone with none.

 

 

 

 

[?Impact]

Just now, drummindiver said:

So if e wasn't off his meds he was on his meds when he did this.

He wasn't on medication when he did this, he had no meds to be off of.

[drummindiver]

25 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

He wasn't on medication when he did this, he had no meds to be off of.

Everything I've read the doctors are quoted as saying it's unlikely he will stop taking his medication again. He has have been taken it at one point and stopped to stop taking it again.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, taxme said:

You didn't answer my question that I asked of you?  Why not? 

Yes I did. I told you I'd try my best to emulate the woman in the story I posted - I'd try to maintain my humanity.

I sure as hell wouldn't turn into a conservative and start demanding the death penalty and blaming the god damn lefties for everything.

 

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

Eye is trying to paint this person as a victim. 

That's already long been evident according to findings, rulings and assessments from legal and medical professionals and experts over the last 8 years.

All I'm really doing is triggering ignorant and unrepentant liars to paint themselves as the inhumane so and so's they really are at heart.

I know. I used to represent mentally ill at capacity hearings

That's actually really disturbing.

Edited February 14, 2017 by eyeball

[blueblood]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

That's already long been evident according to findings, rulings and assessments from legal and medical professionals and experts over the last 8 years.

All I'm really doing is triggering ignorant and unrepentant liars to paint themselves as the inhumane so and so's they really are at heart.

 

That's actually really disturbing.

Nobody is lying.  There is information that was given to you that he went off his meds.  

I would rather have Vince li locked in the crazy house for the rest of his life so that his medication can be monitored and that the risk to society is zero.  If that's inhumane then so be it.  The only one triggered is you because a majority of people don't believe a crazy murderer should be loose and you can't handle that.