Canadian Muslims demanding end to free speech / Canada's Anti-Islamophobia Committee will begin meetings next month

[Michael Hardner]

Right - let's stop making personal comments right now - even if you *think* you were invited to, thanks.

[blackbird]

Heard that Trudeau is bringing M103 back to Parliament March 21 for second reading instead of waiting until April.   Trying to rush it through?

Edited March 16, 2017 by blackbird

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Heard that Trudeau is bringing M103 back to Parliament March 21 for second reading instead of waiting until April.   Trying to rush it through?

 

It would be regrettable if all this current 'Islamophobia' is wasted by merely sitting around when this could be made into Law.

[Goh Shenas]

Some muslims are such a bunch of losers. Same as our lefty tree hugging lots.

They don't like the West then they should go back to where they came from.

I am sick and tired of muslims complaining about our values. 

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎03‎-‎11 at 4:22 PM, Argus said:

I'm not sure why you raise that point, Rue. Its not like I mock my neighbor or throw stones or call him names. and harassment and assault are against the law anyway. But what I fear is a law which will criminalize criticism of Islam and it's behavior  similar to what we find in some European countries. I mean, Brigit Bardot keeps getting charged for complaining about the way they treat animals.

Sorry I just got back to this thread. I raised the point because I agree with you-its just the context of criticism is what really becomes the issue. What's being turned against you is this accusation that if you challenge Islam its Islamophobic. Challenging precepts of Islam, challenging Sharia law as sexist, challenging fundamental principles of Islam as being anti-thetical to democratical principles is fair game I would argue. Its all in the timing and place though when you want to make these challenges is all I am saying.

See if you walk into a Mosque in the middle of people praying and tell them all you find their religion problematic, you might have legitimate debateable points, but it will be because of the timing, taken in a context of being an attack.

That was my only point which is missed on your dettractors. I think they are trying to paint you as someone who does not know when to time and contextualize your challenges.

Once I am at it I would like to point out Peter F's comment to you in my opinion was idiotic. It was meaningless. His attempt to suggest all Muslims are tolerant is as stereotypical and therefore problematic as someone who suggests all Muslims are intolerant. Either way such illogical stereotypes don't help debate or make a point.

Your points I take. I hope that clarifies it because had I clarified it better it would I would have hoped defused some of the attempts to suggest your criticism must be unfair.

Then again you can see on this forum we have one participant who comes on this thread using it as a cover to insult all Muslims in a childish way and on other threads someone comes on to advocate extreme Islam. We get all types.

Personally I doubt you throw stones. Personally I do not doubt you are fed up the way I am some days with politically appropriate people trying to label us like Peter F.

I think on a serious note, discussions about specific Islamic principles need to be brought out in an educated manner for two reasons- I. to prevent bigots from using such discussion as an excuse to bait and harass all Muslims; ii- to call out people who defend extremist Islam even if unintentionally because they are empowering facist Muslims to take control over moderate ones in this nation and others.

 

[taxme]

1 hour ago, Goh Shenas said:

Some muslims are such a bunch of losers. Same as our lefty tree hugging lots.

They don't like the West then they should go back to where they came from.

I am sick and tired of muslims complaining about our values. 

Don't you just love multiculturalism? 

[taxme]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

It would be regrettable if all this current 'Islamophobia' is wasted by merely sitting around when this could be made into Law.

Are you saying that you want this nonsense to become law? 

[Rue]

1 hour ago, Goh Shenas said:

Some muslims are such a bunch of losers. Same as our lefty tree hugging lots.

They don't like the West then they should go back to where they came from.

I am sick and tired of muslims complaining about our values. 

So you come on this forum to name call, generalize and what else? You made no point. You have no specific point to share.

You have no clue how to debate the aspects of Islam you disagree with. What you do is use this thread as an excuse to name

call. Congrats. At least however you prefaced your first sentence with the word "some". Its a start.

Listen. I have spent as have some a great deal of time challenging specific aspects of sharia law or Islam. Doesn't mean I am sick and tired of Muslims.

As for Muslim Canadians, here's a hint, provide to me an example where their complaining about values is different then when you do it.

Hmm?

What makes your complaints different then theirs? Plenty of Canadians whine and complain about values. It's a national past time and a gift we have

in a democracy that permits us to be able to whine and complain.

As for tree hugging, yah I hug trees and embrace Muslims while challenging extremist Muslims and extremists and people who chop down trees

needlessly. What was your point? You have one?  You have something against trees? Some of my best friends are trees. I've lived in neghbourhoods with trees, gone to school with trees, and I love hanging around with trees.  Sure some people think they are shady I get that.

 

[taxme]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Heard that Trudeau is bringing M103 back to Parliament March 21 for second reading instead of waiting until April.   Trying to rush it through?

So much for a Charter of Rights that says that everyone is equal, eh? This motion alone violates the Charter. 

[Rue]

11 minutes ago, taxme said:

Are you saying that you want this nonsense to become law? 

The same Charter that allows freedom of speech and religion will hopefully not permit His Lord Justin of Trudeau or anyone else preventing free speech. In a democracy and the way I read our Charter, we are permitted to challenge religious precepts and no law will stop that. The law you are talking about is Liberal pap. Its ethnic pandering. Its a cheap, transparent attempt to pander to Muslim votes. In fact Muslims protested against it as much as you did finding it objectionable for the same reasons you do.

Putting our obvious differences aside, you Sir should be able to openly question precepts in any religion including mine. Its how you do it. If its done in a constructive way of course its fair game. If you say it in a way where it is used  to justify killing me or burning me or hating me, then yah I have a problem with that. I should be able to question certain precepts of Christianity, of course. Doesn't mean though I should use language that incites hatred of Christians for being Christian. Its a fine line.

What I challenge you and others including by big mouth self as well, is when we don't take sufficient care to differentiate our arguments or positions from stereotypical generalizations of an entire people that can then be used to justify hating them.

I think its crucial we challenge and criticize as Argus would say, people who wear ducks on their head in a democracy where we feel ducks have a better way to be appreciated. Some people eat ducks. Some people want to feed them bread. Some can only conceive of them as cartoon characters.

Me I say everyone is a ducker.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Rue

[taxme]

4 minutes ago, Rue said:

So you come on this forum to name call, generalize and what else? You made no point. You have no specific point to share.

You have no clue how to debate the aspects of Islam you disagree with. What you do is use this thread as an excuse to name

call. Congrats. At least however you prefaced your first sentence with the word "some". Its a start.

Listen. I have spent as have some a great deal of time challenging specific aspects of sharia law or Islam. Doesn't mean I am sick and tired of Muslims.

As for Muslim Canadians, here's a hint, provide to me an example where their complaining about values is different then when you do it.

Hmm?

What makes your complaints different then theirs? Plenty of Canadians whine and complain about values. It's a national past time and a gift we have

in a democracy that permits us to be able to whine and complain.

As for tree hugging, yah I hug trees and embrace Muslims while challenging extremist Muslims and extremists and people who chop down trees

needlessly. What was your point? You have one?  You have something against trees? Some of my best friends are trees. I've lived in neghbourhoods with trees, gone to school with trees, and I love hanging around with trees.  Sure some people think they are shady I get that.

 

The point here is that muslims should not try to force the rest of us Canadians into giving them more rights than you and I or Goa Shenas have. We are either all equal or then let the dogs out.

Rue, you must have one big cry when you see an acre or ten of trees cut down, eh?  So, what are you going to use when you go to the bathroom next time if we stop cutting trees down? Just curious. Also, it doesn't look so good when you say that some of your best friends are trees, gone to school with trees, and hang out with trees. It makes me want to consider that having a discussion with you on an issue will probably just be a waste of time. Care to comment? 

[?Impact]

5 minutes ago, taxme said:

The point here is that muslims should not try to force the rest of us Canadians into giving them more rights than you and I or Goa Shenas have.

and you should not try to force the rest of us Canadians to give you more rights than anyone else.

[taxme]

9 minutes ago, Rue said:

The same Charter that allows freedom of speech and religion will hopefully not permit His Lord Justin of Trudeau or anyone else preventing free speech. In a democracy and the way I read our Charter, we are permitted to challenge religious precepts and no law will stop that. The law you are talking about is Liberal pap. Its ethnic pandering. Its a cheap, transparent attempt to pander to Muslim votes. In fact Muslims protested against it as much as you did finding it objectionable for the same reasons you do.

Putting our obvious differences aside, you Sir should be able to openly question precepts in any religion including mine. Its how you do it. If its done in a constructive way of course its fair game. If you say it in a way where it is used  to justify killing me or burning me or hating me, then yah I have a problem with that. I should be able to question certain precepts of Christianity, of course. Doesn't mean though I should use language that incites hatred of Christians for being Christian. Its a fine line.

What I challenge you and others including by big mouth self as well, is when we don't take sufficient care to differentiate our arguments or positions from stereotypical generalizations of an entire people that can then be used to justify hating them.

I think its crucial we challenge and criticize as Argus would say, people who wear ducks on their head in a democracy where we feel ducks have a better way to be appreciated. Some people eat ducks. Some people want to feed them bread. Some can only conceive of them as cartoon characters.

Me I say everyone is a ducker.

I did not see or hear of any muslims protesting against this stupid motion? I am pretty sure that this motion will go nowhere. But say for instance that it does well then it will become open season for everyone, and I will put a motion forward that I do not want anymore non-white people coming to this country because I feel that they are a threat to the survival of my people. Hey, if it works for them then I want it to work for me. 

Anyway, either we are all equal or we are not. If this should go thru then equality according to the Charter of Rights is dead. Why it has even gone this far is beyond me. And besides, why is this woman that is an immigrant herself doing this? Does she not believe in the right to freedom of expression that is written in our Charter of Rights? 

This is what I mean about politicians. They waste their time and effort, and my dam taxes on this bull crap, and this is why I despise just about every politician in Canada. Oh I long for the good old days way back when before multiculturalism came along. Multiculturalism does not unite, it divides. This motion being put forward is a prime example of trying to cause division. The Ministry for multiculturalism needs to be abolished before more stupid motions like this come along again otherwise it may never end. 

[taxme]

10 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

and you should not try to force the rest of us Canadians to give you more rights than anyone else.

What "more" rights have I asked for?  Over.  

[?Impact]

Just now, taxme said:

What "more" rights have I asked for?  Over.  

Exactly. 

[taxme]

Just now, ?Impact said:

Exactly. 

Exactly what?  Over. 

[?Impact]

Just now, taxme said:

Exactly what?  Over. 

M-103 doesn't ask for any more rights, but you assume some false allegation is going to further your cause.

[taxme]

8 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

M-103 doesn't ask for any more rights, but you assume some false allegation is going to further your cause.

It does. Muslims are asking for more rights than others. What don't you get here? So, if the motion should get passed shall we make every religion in Canada exempt from being criticized or questioned about their beliefs and what they preach? You need to think before you speak? It always works well for me. 

[?Impact]

22 minutes ago, taxme said:

It does. Muslims are asking for more rights than others. What don't you get here? So, if the motion should get passed shall we make every religion in Canada exempt from being criticized or questioned about their beliefs and what they preach? You need to think before you speak? It always works well for me. 

No, it does no such thing. What don't you get here? The motion has absolutely nothing to do with making religion exempt from being criticized or questioned. You need to think before you speak, because it doesn't appear to be working for you.

Edited March 16, 2017 by ?Impact

[Rue]

33 minutes ago, taxme said:

I did not see or hear of any muslims protesting against this stupid motion?

Oh go on try...

 

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/16/im-a-liberal-muslim-and-i-reject-m103

http://www.therebel.media/_i_m_beginning_to_get_really_scared_canadians_protest_m103

http://www.winnipegsun.com/author/tarek-fatah

 

 

 

[PIK]

Actually their are muslims against it, but they got beat up by some dumb white supremacists, lets ban them also.

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

The same Charter that allows freedom of speech and religion will hopefully not permit His Lord Justin of Trudeau or anyone else preventing free speech. In a democracy and the way I read our Charter, we are permitted to challenge religious precepts and no law will stop that.

The problem is if Trudeau brings in a law, a judge can sentence anyone to a jail term and/or fine.  Unless you have a lot of money to appeal and challenge it, there is not much you can do except go to jail.  Also,  there is no telling which way an appeal court will rule these days and you can't count on the Supreme Court to stand up for freedom of speech.  When there is a law forbidding any speech against Islam and their side has lawyers arguing it is "Islamophobia" and against the law,  you might have a hard time proving you have the right to freedom of speech.  Doesn't matter that much what the Charter says if the law says something different and the judges give more weight to the law because of political correctness and powerful lobbies and lawyers on Trudeau's side.

[Rue]

1 hour ago, ?Impact said:

No, it does no such thing. What don't you get here? The motion has absolutely nothing to do with making religion exempt from being criticized or questioned. You need to think before you speak, because it doesn't appear to be working for you.

Your comments are without basisl. The motion you defend does not define the word "Islamophobia" and so until it does you have zero basis to claim what you have let alone tell others to think before they speak.

.You are exhibiting the very bigoted  intolerant you think you challenge in others. Be loving and tolerant in your responses like me.

Let me spell it out:

1-all of us agree, engaging in words that incite hatred, violence, crime is wrong

2-a motion or bill that calls on the government to initiate action as this bill/motion does without explaining why Islamophobia as a word was singled out and what it means, lends to the appearance this is a law intended to scare or intimidate or prevent people from challenging Islamic concepts and precepts.

3-You may not think those concerns are legitimate others do, including Muslims from Iran, Pakistan and other sharia law nations who fled to Canada to get away orecisely from this kind of crap.

3-The blasphemy law in the Canadian Criminal Code is no longer enforced. It can't be. The Charter of Rights has made it obsolete.

4-In fact the Charter of Rights will make Bill-Motion 103 meaningless. However because it will exist, people will be tempted to use it to prevent legitimate debate about Islam the religion, not Muslims the people.

5-The Liberal government is pandering to Muslims because of the shootings in the Mosque in Quebec City. This motion is a direct political pandering response those shootings.

 

There are more acts of anti-Semitism then there are anti Muslim acts in Canada. Why is there no law mentioning Jewaphobia, Christianaphobia, Hinduaphobia, Siehaphobia, Bahaiiaphobia?  The answer-those are not religious groups Trudeau feels the need to get votes from yet. He may very well pander to them all in different ways in the future.

Trudeau is a bigot. He panders to bigotry in minorities. He plays to their insecurity and tokenizes them and pretends to favour them and care about them, That make shim the worst kind of bigot.

Have a nice day and trust me, you want to come on this forum and actually are capable of criticizing something in the Jewish religion, I welcome it. Do I think Moses parted the Red Seas. Not literally no. Neither do I think his rod turned into a snake.  Sorry if I beat you to that one. Do I think any human fallible? No. Have I m et any man with a beard I trusted? No.

if I met Jesus would I call him THE ONLY son of God? No. A son of God, and my brother,  yes. Would I respect Jesus, yes. Would I refer to him as God? No. But I would be respectful. I also respect the right of Christians to believe he is THE son of God. Its their belief, I respect it. Would I agree with his principles. Of course. They are from the Talmud. Nothing he taught is incompatible with Judaism. The big debate over whether he is the Messiah or said we are all Messiahs for me is a minor red herring. Would I call him the only son of God, no. But I would not be rude to Christians about it or insult them about it. That makes me pretty much like most modern people in Canada today, this sort of wishy washy Unitarian like non denominational respectful sort of person with grouchy tendencies. Does that make me need to go to jail because of it? No and I doubt Christians would put me in jail for what I said.

My one disagreement is how the Christian church today refers to him as THE son of God not A son of God. I can disagree politely. I also believe when he used the word Messiah, he meant we are all messiahs and everyone of us is a son or daughter of God sent to this earth with the gift of free choice. We can heal the world and create through positive actions a continuing conection to the infinite source of life energy that flows from positive acts and that some say originated from "God" or we can injure the world when we do negative things and disrupt that positive flow of energy and free thought. That makes me someone who is not anti Christian or anti Jewish. There's things about fundamental Judaism I no longer take literally either.  I can reconcile with both, with agnostics, atheists, Gnostic Christians, Hindus, Siekhs, Bahaiis, Wiccans, Taoists, Budhists who I all think say the same thing. I do have problems with mainstream sharia law and Islamic religious precepts, not the Islam of Amiddyyah Muslims or Ismaili  Muslims or moderate modern Muslims who like me and all the others I mentioned don't see science and theology as opposed to one another but complements of one another. I like Jains. I have no problem with Kurds, Berbers, Druze, Beduins, aborginals. I don't try convert them they don't try convert me. I treat them the way they treat me, with respect.

I don't need a law to tell me I can't debate or dialogue with them or I should show them respect or vice versa thank you. They are my teachers. I have to question and debate them. I consider anyone with an open flexible mind a teacher. How else would I learn? M-103 for me  is nothing more than a feel good phony attempt to pander to fearful Muslims who think Canadians hate them.

We do not hate Muslims. We challenge specific concepts in Islam that clash with our values in Canada. They clash not just with Christian or Jewish or other religious values, but also the values of  moderate Muslims like me do not interpret things literally but instead we engage in relativistic comparative analysis with religions and see them all as allegories trying to teach us to be more civilized in our behaviour.

And on that note, if you disagree with me I will slew and burn thee and thine buttox.

Watch out, Jesuits like me. They said so. I made three laugh at a conference.

Regards

His Pontiff Holiness Countenance Prelate Priest Rabbi Reverend Deacon Apostle Discipline Monk Brother Friar Imam Padre Guru Highness Excellence Holy Water Buffalo like

Rue

 

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by Rue

[Rue]

19 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The problem is if Trudeau brings in a law, a judge can sentence anyone to a jail term and/or fine.  Unless you have a lot of money to appeal and challenge it, there is not much you can do except go to jail.  Also,  there is no telling which way an appeal court will rule these days and you can't count on the Supreme Court to stand up for freedom of speech.  When there is a law forbidding any speech against Islam and their side has lawyers arguing it is "Islamophobia" and against the law,  you might have a hard time proving you have the right to freedom of speech.  Doesn't matter that much what the Charter says if the law says something different and the judges give more weight to the law because of political correctness and powerful lobbies and lawyers on Trudeau's side.

Agreed. That potential exists and until  Islamophobia is defined you have a legitimate concern to say that...but that is my opinion and as you know on this forum I eventually will piss you off if I have not already....but not on purpose...only for the sake of debate.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Rue

[?Impact]

58 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The problem is if Trudeau brings in a law, a judge can sentence anyone to a jail term and/or fine.

The problem is that there is no law, this is a motion to study a problem. 

42 minutes ago, Rue said:

Your comments are without basisl. The motion you defend does not define the word "Islamophobia" and so until it does you have zero basis to claim what you have let alone tell others to think before they speak.

It is commonly understood, and when asked the MP who introduced this motion clarified. 

Quote

.You are exhibiting the very bigoted  intolerant you think you challenge in others. Be loving and tolerant in your responses like me.

If you read, you will see I am using taxme's words. Perhaps you should address your issue to taxme, and yourself (see below).

Quote

5-The Liberal government is pandering to Muslims because of the shootings in the Mosque in Quebec City. This motion is a direct political pandering response those shootings.

Except this motion predates the terrorist action in Quebec city - your point is completely false

Quote

There are more acts of anti-Semitism then there are anti Muslim acts in Canada. Why is there no law mentioning Jewaphobia, Christianaphobia, Hinduaphobia, Siehaphobia, Bahaiiaphobia?  The answer-those are not religious groups Trudeau feels the need to get votes from yet. He may very well pander to them all in different ways in the future.

Yes, religious intolerance is an issue and this motion addresses it. The motion only emphasizes Islamophobia because of all the recent issues of Islamic mosques and cultural centres being burned, Muslims being attacked in public, etc. 

Quote

Trudeau is a bigot.

See earlier point on your loving, tolerant responses.

Edited March 16, 2017 by ?Impact