Should Canada screen potential immigrants/refugees for Canadian Values

Smallc · September 6, 2016

If you're Hitler, right?

Argus · September 6, 2016

If you're Hitler, right?

Without question the stupidest comment you've ever made here.

Smallc · September 6, 2016

Without question the stupidest comment you've ever made here.

Don't assume things about people and build that into you me arguments, and I won't make stupid comments.

Argus · September 6, 2016

Don't assume things about people and build that into you me arguments, and I won't make stupid comments.

I'll make any damned assumptions I want about what constitutes reasonable. I don't personally know anyone who wouldn't raise an eyebrow at why Muslims seem to be involved in just about every murder in Ottawa and I don't think I'd want to.

herples · September 6, 2016

I'll make any damned assumptions I want about what constitutes reasonable. I don't personally know anyone who wouldn't raise an eyebrow at why Muslims seem to be involved in just about every murder in Ottawa and I don't think I'd want to.

Well only three murders you have posted involved Muslims doing the killing the rest were either no one was caught or a non muslim did it.

Benz · September 6, 2016

It is if you were a drug dealer. Look, the only reason this arose was you mentioning gang shootings in response to Hal talking about possible terrorism - as if it were an unrelated issue we just deal with. I was just pointing out it isn't unrelated. All street gangs other than the natives ones are the result of poor immigration policy. Anyone looking at that list would have to be puzzled why there was such a preponderance of Muslims given their comparatively small numbers in the Ottawa area.

Anyone honest, that is.

True, however, you use a short cut to reach that conclusion. Go back few years or decades ago back when most of the crimes found origin among the black community. Although some simplistic point of views blamed their genetics for that "fact", we now know for sure there is rather a social explanation for that. The abnormal high amount of poverty which leads the youth, easy targets, to gangsters. When the black communities are having the same good conditions as the non-blacks, the crime rate is also the same as well.

I'd rather go with the same kind of logic with the Muslims. Instead of being easy targets to gangsters, they are easy target to the extremists. The Wahhabists are spending hundred of millions of oil-dollars, per year in the world, to indoctrinates the people and it is happening right here right now in Canada.

You can bet they will be wise enough to lie to your test at Canada's doorsteps. So I do not see how this could be an efficient way to fight this issue since the most problematic people will definitely lie to you. I am more concern about what we may do within our borders to:

1) target and focus on extremists

2) having better pedagogy to help people avoiding those extremists

3) address and focus on the concentration of poverty among a community and bring solutions to help them have a decent level of wealth. Not by just giving money, rather long term solutions so they have the means to handle their future. Don't give fish, teach how to fish.

We also sometime see non-Muslim young men becoming ISIS soldiers because they are attracted by all the advantages they offer. The "kid" has the impression to go from a life of loser in Canada to a life of a jet set in ISIS land. Out of sudden you get a car, a house, a wife (virgin if you have good reputation among them) and all you have to do is fight for the cause. Our capitalist standards, where the success is calculated by the wealth you cumulated, are to blame for it as well. It's a weakness the agile brainwashers are using big time.

Argus · September 6, 2016

Well only three murders you have posted involved Muslims doing the killing the rest were either no one was caught or a non muslim did it.

It is true to say we can't yet be sure who the killers were in a number of cases. But these are all drug and gangland shootings involving Somali/Lebanese street gangs. The odds are all of the killers not yet caught are part of that same mix.

Argus · September 6, 2016

True, however, you use a short cut to reach that conclusion. Go back few years or decades ago back when most of the crimes found origin among the black community. Although some simplistic point of views blamed their genetics for that "fact", we now know for sure there is rather a social explanation for that. The abnormal high amount of poverty which leads the youth, easy targets, to gangsters. When the black communities are having the same good conditions as the non-blacks, the crime rate is also the same as well.

True, but consider, this too is because of immigration policy. Back when Trudeau the 1st was being progressive his government allowed thousands of what you might call temporary foreign workers to apply for citizenship. They were mostly women from Jamaica working as housekeepers and nannies who had left their kids behind in Jamaica, usually with their own mothers. When they became citizens they naturally were able to bring their kids up from Jamaica, kids who, in many instances, had barely seen them in years, and who were instantly resentful at being dragged away from the grandmother who had actually raised them, away from their friends and all they knew, to this strange cold foreign land to live with this strange woman. Their education wasn't up to par and they had a hard time at schools. They gravitated together, and Jamaican street gangs were the product of this.

I'd rather go with the same kind of logic with the Muslims. Instead of being easy targets to gangsters, they are easy target to the extremists. The Wahhabists are spending hundred of millions of oil-dollars, per year in the world, to indoctrinates the people and it is happening right here right now in Canada.

True and I've talked about that, but the Somali crime gang problem is again a predictable result of progressive immigration policies bringing in tens of thousands of people from what had been a violent, dog-eat-dog war zone where there was no morality about taking whatever you could from anyone weaker than you. So Somalians instantly became known for swarming, at least in this city, ganging up on others to steal whatever they could. They quickly became involved in the drug trade and styled themselves as crips and bloods as they formed street gangs.

You can bet they will be wise enough to lie to your test at Canada's doorsteps.

If they know how. These psychological tests can be fairly clever, and most of these people are entirely unfamiliar with how they operate. But we're not talking about refugees, especially, though we could have screened those in Turkey for the best mix if we weren't desperately trying to meet Trudeau's artificial schedule.

1) target and focus on extremists

2) having better pedagogy to help people avoiding those extremists

3) address and focus on the concentration of poverty among a community and bring solutions to help them have a decent level of wealth. Not by just giving money, rather long term solutions so they have the means to handle their future. Don't give fish, teach how to fish.

I'm not suggesting psychological tests instead of the above, but in addition to it. Better screening for linguistic skill, adaptability and skills in work and education would help there, as well.

Someone who doesn't know English and can't learn it very well is never going to accomplish much here legally.

Goddess · September 6, 2016

(Lots of "appeal to ridicule" in this thread.....that's disappointing)

Islam is not just a religion. It is also a political ideology. Anything done religiously has a political motive. Political Islam is what should be our concern, not their religion. Who cares how a Muslim worships?

We need to become familiar with Sharia law. The vast majority of Muslims want it. They are gradually implementing it all over the world, including here. 64% of it is devoted to Kafirs (non-Muslims) - how to deal with us, how to get us to submit, how to subjugate us.

Having them take a "citizenship test" or whatever is pointless, I think. They KNOW we have different values then they do. They don't care about our values. They just keep chipping away at them, demanding more and more Sharia law be implemented. Do any who are supporters of this have a line that should not be crossed for it's implementation? Where exactly do we say, "No more". And how do we do that, after we have caved in to each and every other demand they make?

I don't know why we think we are special in Canada and that what is happening over there will not happen here?

cybercoma · September 6, 2016

Well only three murders you have posted involved Muslims doing the killing the rest were either no one was caught or a non muslim did it.

Funny how it doesn't concern him that Muslims are being murdered and the perpetrators aren't being caught. But then, why would he care about the safety of Muslims when they so obviously disgust him.

dialamah · September 6, 2016

I don't know why we think we are special in Canada and that what is happening over there will not happen here?

Mainly the ocean. It's impossible to walk from the Middle East to Canada, which means the likelihood of tens of thousands of refugees overunning our border is non-existent.

As to what's happening as a result of all these refugees arriving in Europe, I think its worthwhile keeping an eye on that. At the same time when I hear or read on here, FB, and other such places about some scary terrible thing happening over there because "Islam", I almost always discover, when investigated, that its completely blown out of proportion.

September 7, 2016

Mainly the ocean. It's impossible to walk from the Middle East to Canada, which means the likelihood of tens of thousands of refugees overunning our border is non-existent.

As to what's happening as a result of all these refugees arriving in Europe, I think its worthwhile keeping an eye on that. At the same time when I hear or read on here, FB, and other such places about some scary terrible thing happening over there because "Islam", I almost always discover, when investigated, that its completely blown out of proportion.

Well, blown something, anyway.

Benz · September 7, 2016

True, but consider, this too is because of immigration policy. Back when Trudeau the 1st was being progressive his government allowed thousands of what you might call temporary foreign workers to apply for citizenship. They were mostly women from Jamaica working as housekeepers and nannies who had left their kids behind in Jamaica, usually with their own mothers. When they became citizens they naturally were able to bring their kids up from Jamaica, kids who, in many instances, had barely seen them in years, and who were instantly resentful at being dragged away from the grandmother who had actually raised them, away from their friends and all they knew, to this strange cold foreign land to live with this strange woman. Their education wasn't up to par and they had a hard time at schools. They gravitated together, and Jamaican street gangs were the product of this.

Which brings us back to my point. It is more important to focus on integration help than screen with a test.

True and I've talked about that, but the Somali crime gang problem is again a predictable result of progressive immigration policies bringing in tens of thousands of people from what had been a violent, dog-eat-dog war zone where there was no morality about taking whatever you could from anyone weaker than you. So Somalians instantly became known for swarming, at least in this city, ganging up on others to steal whatever they could. They quickly became involved in the drug trade and styled themselves as crips and bloods as they formed street gangs.

I am moreless as much exasperated as you are regarding this liberal Care Bare attitude. As much I want to give those people a chance to live in this country the life they could not in Somalia, I am also aware the sometimes you can't change some people against their will. There is a Québec expression "On peut sortir un gars de la campagne mais, on ne peut sortir la campagne du gars". Sometimes it's in you and you can't change. or at best, will change if they are forced too.

It is interesting that you consider those immigration policies as "progressive". It must be an english-Canada thing then because here in Québec, it's rather the center and center-left, the progressives, that are more lucid about that. Well there are the extreme left, Quebec Solidaire Party, that plays the ostrich mostly based on the reasoning that all individuals are free todo EVERYTHING they want. Leftist liberatians, a new weird phenomenon.

If they know how. These psychological tests can be fairly clever, and most of these people are entirely unfamiliar with how they operate. But we're not talking about refugees, especially, though we could have screened those in Turkey for the best mix if we weren't desperately trying to meet Trudeau's artificial schedule.

I admit it could help you get few but, for the most part of it and mainly regarding those already here, your screen test won't help much. It won't solve the actual problem already lying down here.

In Ontario, in the big Toronto area, there are public sectarian Muslim schools. Not private, public! In Quebec we consider that has a severe breach in the concept of seperation of state and religions. Only 100% private schools can have something like that. Although the Sharia is illegal, we know that in Ontario is still applied clandestinely. Maybe we are having that already in Québec as well and we are not aware of. Alot of women are married by force, even if it is illegal. A practice still very popular among indians and few others. Not only Trudeau wants us to be tolerant toward that, he now claims that we consider that as normal. This is what I hate the most about multiculturalism. I rather go for pluriculturalism or some people rather call that interculturalism. Nothing of this kind sounds progressive to me. Your screen test won't change anything to the current situation.

I'm not suggesting psychological tests instead of the above, but in addition to it. Better screening for linguistic skill, adaptability and skills in work and education would help there, as well.
Someone who doesn't know English and can't learn it very well is never going to accomplish much here legally.

Then what? You reject people being incapable to speak English? I assume you include French as well. English or French would be the requirement.

Well, if you are talking about getting Canadian citizenship, I agree. However, I do not agree regarding Canadian residency. 16 years ago, I had a girlfriend born in Vietnam and her family moved in Québec when she was one years old. Although they were speaking vietnamese at home, she was definitely assimilated to the French culture and she was as much Québécois as me. She did feel home when she visited Vietnam and did not feel they were considering her as one of them when she tried to speak Vietnamese with them. However, her mother was never able to speak neither french, nor english. Only Vietnamese. She was a housewife taking care of the family. Based on your standards, she would have not been allowed to come in but, she never been a threat or a problem to anyone. Of course it was problematic for her to live without knowing any of the two official languages but, she was nice and it did not cause any trouble to anyone. You are pushing it too far.

Argus · September 7, 2016

It is interesting that you consider those immigration policies as "progressive". It must be an english-Canada thing then because here in Québec, it's rather the center and center-left, the progressives, that are more lucid about that.

In Quebec, the Left embraces nationalism, which means standing up for Quebec's culture and values. The Left in English Canada often take the position that Canada has no culture. If you say we have a culture, then you have to define it, and the Left refuses to do that because it might not be inclusive enough. Besides, if you admit we have a culture then some might compare it to, say, the culture of the Muslim world and think ours was better. We can't have that! No culture is better than any other, you see.

I admit it could help you get few but, for the most part of it and mainly regarding those already here, your screen test won't help much. It won't solve the actual problem already lying down here.

These tests rely on getting answers through indirect questions. It's true that if someone sits down with a potential applicant and advises them on the sorts of things to avoid or lie about then some of the effectiveness can be defeated. I just don't think a large percentage of applicants are going to hire someone to teach them the ins and outs of complicated psychological testing methodologies. Large employers use them here. Do many job applicants research how to defeat them? Nope.

Then what? You reject people being incapable to speak English? I assume you include French as well. English or French would be the requirement.

Yes, French for Quebec. A number of studies have pointed to the poor literacy of immigrants as one of the major reasons why they are performing less and less well in economic terms. This is not the old days. We are not bringing people over to work on farms or on fishing boats or as loggers. Communications skills are extremely important, especially in better paid jobs. It's no accident that among the countries found to produce the more successful immigrants, English is extremely important, ie, India, Ireland, the UK, the Phllipines.

Benz · September 7, 2016

In Quebec, the Left embraces nationalism, which means standing up for Quebec's culture and values. The Left in English Canada often take the position that Canada has no culture. If you say we have a culture, then you have to define it, and the Left refuses to do that because it might not be inclusive enough. Besides, if you admit we have a culture then some might compare it to, say, the culture of the Muslim world and think ours was better. We can't have that! No culture is better than any other, you see.

These tests rely on getting answers through indirect questions. It's true that if someone sits down with a potential applicant and advises them on the sorts of things to avoid or lie about then some of the effectiveness can be defeated. I just don't think a large percentage of applicants are going to hire someone to teach them the ins and outs of complicated psychological testing methodologies. Large employers use them here. Do many job applicants research how to defeat them? Nope.

Yes, French for Quebec. A number of studies have pointed to the poor literacy of immigrants as one of the major reasons why they are performing less and less well in economic terms. This is not the old days. We are not bringing people over to work on farms or on fishing boats or as loggers. Communications skills are extremely important, especially in better paid jobs. It's no accident that among the countries found to produce the more successful immigrants, English is extremely important, ie, India, Ireland, the UK, the Phllipines.

Although there are some canadians saying there no such thing as Canadian culture, I doubt most of them are thinking like that. I think the approach is rather that culture is irrelevant under a state of rights. By culture, I mostly include the political side such as equality between men and women and many others. Canadian Multiculturalism, the P.E. Trudeau's version, is not trying to look for a minimum of common shared values. People can do whatever they want as long as it respects the laws. But the laws change over time. It respects people's will. The trap with that mindset is that, values are the opinion base of the people to establish laws and if the people's values are different, the laws will be adapted to the new reality. The juridic sphere often relies to the spirit of the law when they have to decide about the application of that said law. With this path, eventually the Sharia will be accepted and protected by the law because the number of people wanting it will be high enough to justify it. It's a very dangerous slip road. As much as I do not want a moral government stating what it thinks is right and wrong about anything, I do not want the people to be so different that laws become irrelevant or not applicable or even worst, applied differently according to the beliefs of people.

Even if the Canadian culture is very influenced by the Americans to a point where some are questioning its distinction, to my eyes english-Canadian culture is very well alive and deserves more recognition from their own members.

Culture is a word covering so many areas. We are often clumsy to discuss about it because we may have different understand of what the other one think of it. Culture can concern music, film, tv shows/series, all form of arts, food, festivals, dance styles, party/celebrations, sports, political values, human relations, etc... There are some fields that we do not want to intervene. We do not want to tell what kind of food they should eat. It is something very personal and it is not necessary a bad thing if one culture is influenced by a another. I go only once a year to the Cabane à Sucre, I eat poutine once a month but, I eat Lebanon food once a week. I am not becoming a Lebanon guy at all. This is what we call Pluriculturalism. People of one culture is having access to traits of other culture and adopt whatever they like. However, other forms of culture are not individual, they are rather social and have a direct link to each others. Such as the way you must behave. The choice you make that has direct impact on others. Such as choosing an husband to your daughter. This where the multiculturalism and pluriculturalism are different. One still wants to let people do whatever they want (unless the law forbids it) and the other one is trying to reach a common ground.

Québec is very Pluriculturalism oriented as oppose to Canada which is still for now Multiculturalism oriented. Well, it was like that the last time I checked. You tell me.

The danger of relying too much on your test at Canada's doorsteps is, you may reject people that would bring good contribution to your system based on your interpretation of that so called psychological test. Your test can be too tricky and lead to very off interpretations. The test must be simple and understood clearly. Otherwise it won't pass the test of the Supreme Court. I know what you are trying to do and I agree on the principle, I just don't think in the reality it will lead you to the result you are expecting. I know I am repeating myself but, I think such test is irrelevant if you do not have measures inside to make sure the people are already sharing a common ground set of values about what you think should be unanimous. If you can't stop a kid to go to public school with a Kirpan currently in Canada, how do you think you will be able to stop anyone coming in Canada with the same position?

Well, yes we are still getting people over for jobs that Canadians do not want to do. I wouldn't mind to get people with weak communication skills if we do have good programs to help them with that. English and French are in the top 10 of the easiest languages to learn. They are the only two languages in the world that are used on all continents. Among many other reasons, it makes Canada a country with the easiest conditions for immigration. I would be more concerned if one do not need any of the two languages to work succesfully in Canada. Having the knowledge of several languages is not the same as having only one which is not any of the 2 officials.

Argus · September 7, 2016

The danger of relying too much on your test at Canada's doorsteps is, you may reject people that would bring good contribution to your system based on your interpretation of that so called psychological test. Your test can be too tricky and lead to very off interpretations.

Sure, but it's inevitable that we reject good people all the time. We have a points system, for example, which gives points for various things, some of which make sense. It selects people based on a criteria we have decided on (meaning the immigration department, not me and you) and often it is wrong. But it is very formal and makes lots of mistakes. Otherwise our housing projects wouldn't be full of immigrants and the children of immigrants.

The test is an alternative to simply refusing to take people from certain regions of the world where culture and values hostile to our own are prevalent. Personally, I believe we should take people from the countries which are as similar to ours as possible. That these countries tend to also produce the most economically successful immigrants makes it a logical alternative for me. I'm not saying we should outright reject all immigrants from the Muslim world, for example, but I am saying it would make more sense to focus our recruitment efforts on countries like The United Kingdom, Ireland, Italy and France, where the immigration department says the most economically successful immigrants come from. Their culture and values are far more similar to ours than those of the Muslim world, and no test would really be needed to determine which would be hostile to our culture. Immigrants from other regions should be very carefully selected for their open mindedness on culture and values.

If you can't stop a kid to go to public school with a Kirpan currently in Canada, how do you think you will be able to stop anyone coming in Canada with the same position?

I don't have a real problem with a kid going to school with a Kirpan. My problem is that we expect immigrant kids to meld into the Canadian mainstream through schooling where the overwhelming number of kids will be "Canadian" as in hold the same culture and values as the mainstream. In many schools, however, kids with 'mainstream' culture and values are very definitely in the minority. How do you learn to be Canadian when almost everyone you go to school with is an immigrant?

Well, yes we are still getting people over for jobs that Canadians do not want to do.

We have few jobs "nobody" wants. What we have are jobs nobody wants FOR WHAT THEY'RE BEING PAID. Capitalism has a solution for this. If the job is unpleasant and not enough people want to do it, then the employer has to raise the pay rate. Raise it enough and you'll find Canadians willing to do the work.

WestCoastRunner · September 7, 2016

Please stop playing dumb when you've lost an argument.

What argument did I lose? I was asking Argus a question in response to this -> I doubt there'd be a lot of lawyers in Pakistan or Indonesia who would specialize in figuring out the personality tests for Canada immigration.

Then you chimed in with this:

" -> So you somehow think that people who aren't Canadian should somehow be allowed to fight to become Canadian under the laws of the country they are currently from that has absolutely nothing to do with and no influence at all over our own laws? So in a way another country would be telling us what people we have to take...which would be no more valid or somehow different than if they tried to do that now, in which case we would laugh at them and refuse. Nah, don't think so."

You should be able to see why I'm confused as to what argument I lost.

dre · September 7, 2016

We have few jobs "nobody" wants. What we have are jobs nobody wants FOR WHAT THEY'RE BEING PAID. Capitalism has a solution for this. If the job is unpleasant and not enough people want to do it, then the employer has to raise the pay rate. Raise it enough and you'll find Canadians willing to do the work.

And we have consumers that wont buy products if those workers are paid more.

-TSS- · September 7, 2016

Nah, just ask them how much money they have got and then judge a limit which is the amount of money you can get by in Canada without outside help and act accordingly. If over the limit you have set: Welcome. If under: Bye-bye.

Edited September 7, 2016 by -TSS-

Argus · September 7, 2016

And we have consumers that wont buy products if those workers are paid more.

That's Capitalism. And what happens then is a reduction in the need for these jobs, so problem solved.

Necessary jobs will always get done. The need for clean floors means we'll pay cleaning staff more whether we like it or not.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Argus

WestCoastRunner · September 7, 2016

We have few jobs "nobody" wants. What we have are jobs nobody wants FOR WHAT THEY'RE BEING PAID. Capitalism has a solution for this. If the job is unpleasant and not enough people want to do it, then the employer has to raise the pay rate. Raise it enough and you'll find Canadians willing to do the work.

Just one example of jobs that Canadians won't do:

Help Wanted: The job crisis in Canadian Agriculture

Meat packers and processors say they have already been doing what the minister suggested, with limited to mediocre success.

In a six-page briefing memo compiled by the Canadian Meat Council, which represents federally registered meat packing and processing plants, the group said its members are already offering to pay moving expenses. Visits to schools, job fairs, aboriginal reserves, and immigrant and refugee settlement organizations are routine, the memo notes, as companies scour the country from coast-to-coast looking for workers.

As for wages, the memo noted the Canadian meat industry is heavily unionized, with rates of pay “increasing faster than inflation and are not only well above minimum wage levels, but exceed those offered by competitors in the United States.”

Starting rates for workers range between $10 and $22 an hour, with benefits and plenty of opportunity to work up, recruiters plead in a slew of online postings that clutter local and national job boards.

“The unqualified choice of the Canadian meat industry is to recruit workers from among the unemployed, youth, first nations, new immigrants and refugees,” the memo says.

The problem is that Canadians just don’t want the jobs.

Plenty more jobs go unfilled that Canadians just don't want, regardless of the pay rate.

-TSS- · September 7, 2016

Btw, what do you Canadian people think of your immigration-policy? Is it strict or lax?

Namely, depending on the outlook both views can be justified. If, say just a speculative number as I don't really know how many immigrants you let in, 500000 people enter the country every year, it may feel like being swarmed by immigration.

Yet if 50 million people would like to move into your country but only 1% get to do so then the immigration-policy is certainly very strict.

Edited September 7, 2016 by -TSS-

bush_cheney2004 · September 7, 2016

... Plenty more jobs go unfilled that Canadians just don't want, regardless of the pay rate.

"The problem is that Canadians just don’t want the jobs."

Interesting quote...so "First Nations" are not considered to be Canadians for employment purposes ?

Bonam · September 7, 2016

Just one example of jobs that Canadians won't do:

Help Wanted: The job crisis in Canadian Agriculture

Plenty more jobs go unfilled that Canadians just don't want, regardless of the pay rate.

Really? Regardless of pay rate? Meat packing is unpleasant work, people aren't gonna do it for $10 an hour when there are plenty of jobs available. You can make $40k+ benefits working for the city in better jobs like garbage collecting, etc. Try $30/hour and you'll get more applicants than you know what to do with. Or automate your meat packing plant and employ some skilled engineers and technicians in doing so, while greatly raising productivity in the end.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Bonam

WestCoastRunner · September 7, 2016

Really? Regardless of pay rate? Meat packing is unpleasant work, people aren't gonna do it for $10 an hour when there are plenty of jobs available. You can make $40k+ benefits working for the city in better jobs like garbage collecting, etc. Try $30/hour and you'll get more applicants than you know what to do with. Or automate your meat packing plant and employ some skilled engineers and technicians in doing so, while greatly raising productivity in the end.

It's not just the money. It's the actual physically demanding work, it's rural, away from their families etc. These jobs just aren't being filled because Canadians don't want the work.