Should Canada screen potential immigrants/refugees for Canadian Values

[Argus]

Cite?

From what? The media? LOL. The media don't report the ethnicity of criminals.

For example, you could read this story and tut tut at how racist Frenchmen are towards Chinese, but you certainly won't read in it that all the attackers involved are Arabs and north Africans, ie Muslims. Any more than during the 'riots' a couple of years ago the media ever pointed out it was Muslims then either.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/thousands-rally-in-paris-to-protest-crime-targeting-chinese/article31704722/

Edited September 5, 2016 by Argus

[cybercoma]

If a meaningful and effective test can be devised, yes.

"Do you know what this is? [picture of poutine]"

"Who was Tim Horton?"

"What's a double double?"

"What is your favourite hockey team?"

"Do you love maple syrup?"

"Do you own more than one toque?"

"Can you ice skate?"

[Argus]

Some are 'involved' as victims:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/homicide-overbrook-stabbing-1.3459610

Is the person accused here a Muslim?

Regarding Ottawa gang shootings, are the perpetrators or victims randomly distributed across the Muslim community? Do we have Afghan, Indonesian or Bosnian stories or something more specific? I am hearing about Somali issues in Ottawa quite a bit now.

Mostly you're talking Somalians and Lebanese, with some Iranians and Afghans thrown into the mix. The street gang problem in Ottawa is almost 100% Muslim, again from the same mix above. Most drug dealers are Muslim, again from the same mix, so this is where the violence comes from. There are a few random Jamaicans in the mix, as well, but they're a minority, no pun intended.

How do I know all the murders were Muslims? Not one media story has ever said anything about that, of course. But I'm a news junkie, so one after another I read the stories as the murders occurred, and the names and descriptions of those arrested or sought.

[cybercoma]

I think a Canadian Values test is perfect. We should have the most progressive test imaginable and deport Argus if he fails it.

[Argus]

Some are 'involved' as victims:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/homicide-overbrook-stabbing-1.3459610

Is the person accused here a Muslim?

This is a case where there hasn't been a lot of updates. However, this from the Ottawa Sun

While believed to be drug-related, the fatal stabbing is the second homicide in as many months with ties to a national security investigation that dismantled a terror network in the capital a year ago.

So this was a drug related crime in a housing project. Might find out at the trial, if there is one.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/02/24/friends-and-family-mourn-humble-homicide-victim-mohamed-ali-hassan

[Argus]

So here is what I've gathered up on Ottawa's 11 homicides so far this year. It appears I was wrong. Only 10 of 11 had Muslim involvement.

Jan. 10: Mohamed Najdi, 28, on Claremont Drive in Manor Park. Six men have been charged with first-degree murder. All Muslims

Jan. 31: Marwan Arab, 20, shot to death at the Shifa Restaurant on Cobden Road in Pinecrest. No arrests have been made.

Feb. 22: Mohamed Ali Hassan, 19, stabbed 18 times near Lawson Park in Overbrook. Michael Leblanc, 26, charged with second-degree murder.

This was a drug deal that went wrong.

Feb. 24: Taylor Morrow-Flint, 20, shot in apartment on Ritchie Street in Britannia. No arrests.

March 8: Nooredin Hassan, 20, shot in front of school on Jasmine Crescent. No arrests.

March 27: Christina Voelzing, 24, shot at her home on Sonnet Crescent. Behnam Yaali, 23, charged with with second-degree murder.

May 2: Lonnie Leafloor, 56, stabbed in Lepage Avenue apartment. No arrests.

This was in a housing project and involved drugs. No absolute guarantee of Muslim involvement but given the Somalia/Lebanese control almost the whole of Ottawa's drug trade it's pretty close.

Tarique Leger, drug dealer. Tarique is a Muslim name.

Jeremy Spafford’ killed in a crack house, was in the witness protection program after testifying against Muslims in an arson case

Omar Rashid-Ghader, 33, suspect wanted,Mustafa Ahmed, 28,

[Big Guy]

Kelly Leich just buried her chances of the leadership of the party - and rightly so. His view is a minority and unpopular one for most Canadians. Rona Ambrose has been trying to quickly separate herself and the party from Leich's statements. Her misguided "abuse line" during the election helped kill any chances for a Harper victory and this latest idea had killed her leadership chances.

[GostHacked]

Why would it never work? Half of these people don't even know their beliefs, like executing apostates, or beating women is wrong.

And we wouldn't be asking direct questions. You can be a lot more subtle in personality tests than that. Employers use them to assess suitability all the time.

I would say some of our members here don't even know their own beliefs. How can you properly screen others when you don't even know your own?

[GostHacked]

So here is what I've gathered up on Ottawa's 11 homicides so far this year. It appears I was wrong. Only 10 of 11 had Muslim involvement.

Actually that shows the victims were Muslim.

Out of the 11 almost have, resulted in no arrests. And out of the few named, not all attackers were Muslim. And a few were botched drug deals. I would also like to see your stats on Ottawa drugs being managed by Lebanese/Somalia gangs.

Edited September 5, 2016 by GostHacked

[Argus]

Actually that shows the victims were Muslim.

Most of these are drug murders, and the Somalis are big in the drug trade, as are the Lebanese.

I would also like to see your stats on Ottawa drugs being managed by Lebanese/Somalia gangs.

The media doesn't report such things. You know it if you live here. The only thing the media ever does is let things slip occasionally, like the Ottawa Citizen article about the need for a new Somali youth center (because more than half the youths in detention in Ottawa are Somali) or something like this

"You think you are the only Somali mother in Ottawa with a son in jail?" Mohamed recalled her friend saying. "Go down to Courtroom 5 at 1: 30 p.m. any day and just sit there. You will see."

Mohamed and a friend went to the Elgin Street courthouse, sat on a bench in Courtroom No. 5 and watched. Men being held at the Ottawa-Carleton Detention Centre on Innes Road were making court appearances via live video feed. Mohamed couldn't believe her eyes. Most of the men were visible minorities, and many of those were Somali

"It looked like all the Somali boys in Ottawa were at Innes Road," she said. "Theft, possession of a weapon, breach of probation. Some of them as young as 18, fresh, slim, handsome boys. It made me say, 'My God, what is going on with us?' "

[Michael Hardner]

I have followed the discussions around screening people for potential criminal fit and it seems to always centre on religion and not move on.

A person has a religion, an ethnic background, a gender, a nationality and many other aspects. What factors would be used ?

This seems like a good thread to widen the discussion and add some fuel - here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_correlations_of_criminal_behaviour

[Guest]

That's why it would be far better to just show all potential immigrants exactly what they are letting themselves in for if they come to Canada. Tell them if they don't like it, that's fine. If they act on their dislikes, they're gone.

Edit> Just to be clear, I'm not talking about refusing to go to a pride parade.

Edited September 5, 2016 by bcsapper

[Machjo]

Mostly you're talking Somalians and Lebanese, with some Iranians and Afghans thrown into the mix. The street gang problem in Ottawa is almost 100% Muslim, again from the same mix above. Most drug dealers are Muslim, again from the same mix, so this is where the violence comes from. There are a few random Jamaicans in the mix, as well, but they're a minority, no pun intended.

How do I know all the murders were Muslims? Not one media story has ever said anything about that, of course. But I'm a news junkie, so one after another I read the stories as the murders occurred, and the names and descriptions of those arrested or sought.

You can't presume a person's religion from his nationality.

[The_Squid]

So here is what I've gathered up on Ottawa's 11 homicides so far this year. It appears I was wrong. Only 10 of 11 had Muslim involvement.

Jan. 10: Mohamed Najdi, 28, on Claremont Drive in Manor Park. Six men have been charged with first-degree murder. All Muslims

Jan. 31: Marwan Arab, 20, shot to death at the Shifa Restaurant on Cobden Road in Pinecrest. No arrests have been made.

Feb. 22: Mohamed Ali Hassan, 19, stabbed 18 times near Lawson Park in Overbrook. Michael Leblanc, 26, charged with second-degree murder.

This was a drug deal that went wrong.

Feb. 24: Taylor Morrow-Flint, 20, shot in apartment on Ritchie Street in Britannia. No arrests.

March 8: Nooredin Hassan, 20, shot in front of school on Jasmine Crescent. No arrests.

March 27: Christina Voelzing, 24, shot at her home on Sonnet Crescent. Behnam Yaali, 23, charged with with second-degree murder.

May 2: Lonnie Leafloor, 56, stabbed in Lepage Avenue apartment. No arrests.

This was in a housing project and involved drugs. No absolute guarantee of Muslim involvement but given the Somalia/Lebanese control almost the whole of Ottawa's drug trade it's pretty close.

Tarique Leger, drug dealer. Tarique is a Muslim name.

Jeremy Spafford’ killed in a crack house, was in the witness protection program after testifying against Muslims in an arson case

Omar Rashid-Ghader, 33, suspect wanted,Mustafa Ahmed, 28,

So you were lying when you said all of them were perpetrated by Muslims....

[Machjo]

So you were lying when you said all of them were perpetrated by Muslims....

Give credit where credit is due. A professional propagandist makes claims that suit his views and crosses his fingers hoping people don't check.

That way, he can spread rumors that he can then regurgitate repeatedly to strangthen his claims.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Most of these are drug murders, and the Somalis are big in the drug trade, as are the Lebanese.

The media doesn't report such things. You know it if you live here. The only thing the media ever does is let things slip occasionally, like the Ottawa Citizen article about the need for a new Somali youth center (because more than half the youths in detention in Ottawa are Somali) or something like this

"You think you are the only Somali mother in Ottawa with a son in jail?" Mohamed recalled her friend saying. "Go down to Courtroom 5 at 1: 30 p.m. any day and just sit there. You will see."

Mohamed and a friend went to the Elgin Street courthouse, sat on a bench in Courtroom No. 5 and watched. Men being held at the Ottawa-Carleton Detention Centre on Innes Road were making court appearances via live video feed. Mohamed couldn't believe her eyes. Most of the men were visible minorities, and many of those were Somali

"It looked like all the Somali boys in Ottawa were at Innes Road," she said. "Theft, possession of a weapon, breach of probation. Some of them as young as 18, fresh, slim, handsome boys. It made me say, 'My God, what is going on with us?' "

The Lebanese started coming after the civil war, Somalis after the sub-Sahara war, Iranians after Iranian revolution, so you are saying before all that (say prior ti 1970) there was no drug problem or drug dealers or shootings or drug traffickers in Ottawa, right?

[Argus]

I have followed the discussions around screening people for potential criminal fit and it seems to always centre on religion and not move on.

Although criminality has come into the discussion that is NOT the actual purpose of screening immigrants for Canadian values, nor has it been the basis of most of the posts in this topic thus far.

The real question is importing hundreds of thousands of people with values which are hostile to our own, values likely to be retained given they are derived from religion and not merely ethnic or national culture.

As someone pointed out, ultra-orthodox Jews have certainly not changed their religion-based values since coming to North America, and their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren retain them. They rarely associate with others, and retain their old language. But at least the ultra-orthodox Jews, perhaps because of their small numbers, do not attempt to hold others to their values. They don't, for example, gather around women who don't cover themselves up, screaming abuse and repeatedly spitting at them as they do in the haradim parts of Israel.

The history of Islam in the west is unfortunately dissimilar. Their hostility towards social behaviour which violates the tenets of their religion has been demonstrated repeatedly all over the West. I'm quite willing to concede there are moderate Muslims, if not nearly so many as others seem to hope, but I do think we should be screening for the regressive views which are hostile to our own lest they build up to troublesome numbers in Canada. That goes for Sikhs, too, and anyone else.

[Argus]

The Lebanese started coming after the civil war, Somalis after the sub-Sahara war, Iranians after Iranian revolution, so you are saying before all that (say prior ti 1970) there was no drug problem or drug dealers or shootings or drug traffickers in Ottawa, right?

To be absolutely honest I can remember when I thought street gangs were an American phenomena, for we had none in Canada. At least, none that engaged in drive-by shootings and the like. And as far as I'm aware all Canadian street gangs are the product of immigration. Wait, that's changed. Natives have taken to forming violent street gangs in imitation of others. But no, there are no white street gangs so far as I'm aware. There ARE white motorcycle gangs, for sure, but their violence tends to be more self-contained (with exceptions, like Quebec). And their members don't seem to be involved in the same sorts of violent robberies, muggings, etc. we see from street gang members.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

Although criminality has come into the discussion that is NOT the actual purpose of screening immigrants for Canadian values, nor has it been the basis of most of the posts in this topic thus far.

The real question is importing hundreds of thousands of people with values which are hostile to our own, values likely to be retained given they are derived from religion and not merely ethnic or national culture.

I have seen the discussion around terrorism and values, my point is to widen the discussion so people can understand about how such a system would actually work.

ie. talk about the details of these methods, the pros/cons, and how factors are selected etc.

[Argus]

So you were lying when you said all of them were perpetrated by Muslims....

I don't need to lie. Besides, I'm a much more honest person than you. I said they 'involved' Muslims. That was my impression from news stories and I said it. I was over 90% right so pretty damned close.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Argus

[Argus]

You can't presume a person's religion from his nationality.

You can if he's Somalian.

[dialamah]

You can if he's Somalian.

I though that street gangs are generally formed by second generation immigrant males, and that they aren't particularly religious.

[Michael Hardner]

And this discussion is expanding to focus on crime, which makes the link above a good reference point for anybody interested in identifying factors in criminals.

Still related to Canadian values, IMO.

[Argus]

And this discussion is expanding to focus on crime, which makes the link above a good reference point for anybody interested in identifying factors in criminals.

Still related to Canadian values, IMO.

The problem with testing for possible future criminality is all such testing is imperfect. I'm quite willing to admit testing for attitudes is imperfect, too, but at least you're testing for an existing trait, not the statistical possible future development of one. Yes, statistically men commit more crime than women, so the fewer men we let in, the lower percentage of immigrants are likely to become criminals (for example). But there are obvious disadvantages of letting in mainly female immigrants, not the least of which is the difficulty in finding enough in the technical and trades fields we want.

There is no downside in allowing in fewer people with disharmonious social values and beliefs. Unless someone can think of one?

Likewise other factors, like socioeconomics, age, and race, which factor into the statistical likelihood of future crime are all largely irrelevant in discussing present values. Religious people from the third world hold social values hostile to ours across all ranges and spectrums, educated and uneducated, rich and poor, rural and urban.

[Michael Hardner]

...and the question of economic potential has also been brought up.

I'm hoping that the discussion can include methods and factors as well.

Thanks, everyone.