Accommodating male/female segregation for Muslims?

[Guest]

Law? These are kids playing together in a long running summer camp swimming pool based on our Canadian culture. What does law have to do with it?

I'm not talking about the OP. I was responding to ?Impact's post.

[Guest]

Do you mean none or any?

None. As in, a lot of our laws would have a cultural basis, but none should have a religious basis.

[CITIZEN_2015]

We make accommodations all the time, yet it seems when the accommodations are for Muslims suddenly all is not right with the world.

Should we have to accommodate?

Can we accommodate if it is practical?

No we don't have to because when they completed their application form to come here they knew exactly where they are coming to.

How far do we go with accommodating. Should we also accommodate a ban on alcohol, closing bars, lashing, polygamy, mandatory hejab,........if we accommodate segregation why not the rest?

Edited August 15, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Guest]

No we don't have to because when they completed their application form to come here they knew exactly where they are coming to.

How far do we go with accommodating. Should be also accommodate a ban on alcohol, closing bars, lashing, polygamy, mandatory hejab,........if we accommodate segregation why not the rest?

It would depend on what the accommodation is, and whether or not it affects anyone else. I personally would not allow the call to prayer, because I would find it an intolerable racket. To be fair, it would be the same with church bells. I see no reason to refrain from offending anyone's religious sensibilities if to not do so means changing behaviour one doesn't want to change. That said, one can if one wants. There just should be no requirement to do so.

[?Impact]

and no in this specific case.

Why this specific case? Why can we accommodate other parents wishes, but not these ones?

How far do we go with accommodating. Should be also accommodate a ban on alcohol, closing bars, lashing, polygamy, mandatory hejab,........if we accommodate segregation why not the rest?

So no accommodation for anyone? Everyone for themselves?

[CITIZEN_2015]

.Those who CHOSE to come here and expect to be accommodated will be best accommodated in their home country.

Edited August 15, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[cybercoma]

We segregate based on sex!!!!!. If you are referring to public bathrooms this is not the same as segregating streets, schools, swimming pools, buses.

Catholic schools in Ontario were segregated up to a few decades ago and some still are.

[Smoke]

And they shouldn't be. In my opinion, there should not be separate schools based on religion anywhere in Canada. Time to change all schools to "public" schools.

[cybercoma]

That involves opening the Constitution.

[Big Guy]

What came first - law or religion? I suggest that religion came first. I believe all religions are a template for survival and the basics were translated into law by those trying to maintain social order.

[Guest]

It doesn't matter. Religion should mean absolutely nothing to anyone except those who choose it to mean something. You don't want to have an abortion or draw Mohammad, don't.

[Argus]

Why do we have segregated changing rooms for kids 5-12 other than to appease the parents? It is all about accommodating differing ideas driven by ideology. I see two completely different questions that should not be confused.

Islam contains an all inclusive set of rules on social conduct, especially for women. In fact, one might even say it obsesses over women and their chastity and sexual conduct. It forces women to cover up lest they incite men to lust (it makes no such requirement of men, of course, who are comfortable in their t-shirts). It calls for brutal punishments for women who violate its taboos. It requires men and women stay separate at all times, that there be no social mingling between unmarried men/boys and women/girls. It explicitly places women under the control of men and allows them to be brutalized for any perceived violation of 'honor'. Men, meanwhile, visit prostitutes, or are free to have sex with "infidels" without punishment. It even gives Muslim men permission to rape 'infidel prisoners'.

If we are to have more and more of these people in Canada it has to be made abundantly clear to them right at the outset that we will not accept this misogynistic aspect of their social values, and will not permit it to flourish here, that they must change their attitudes or go home.

In 1993, when I was 17 and my sister were 12 and 11, our family moved to the Turkish capital, Ankara, because of my father’s job with the UN’s refugee agency, the UNHCR. For the next two years we were leered at, jeered at, hissed at, groped and touched, again and again and again, every single time we left the house. The only time this treatment lessened was if we went out with my father. Once I was groped and hit in the face right outside the president’s palace. The guards responded by hooting and laughing and shoving their pelvises at me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12095984/Muslim-men-considered-us-to-be-whores.html

Edited August 15, 2016 by Argus

[Argus]

Why this specific case? Why can we accommodate other parents wishes, but not these ones?

We should not accommodate misogyny. I wonder if you would feel accommodating if Muslims objected to gay boys in the pool and insisted they be in a separate class.

[cybercoma]

We should not accommodate misogyny. I wonder if you would feel accommodating if Muslims objected to gay boys in the pool and insisted they be in a separate class.

Clearly, you're a champion of gay rights.

I don't approve of the homosexual lifestyle, or what you might think of as the gay 'culture', however. I don't approve of this desperate need to prove they're 'normal' when they clearly are not.

[?Impact]

If we are to have more and more of these people in Canada it has to be made abundantly clear to them right at the outset that we will not accept this misogynistic aspect of their social values, and will not permit it to flourish here, that they must change their attitudes or go home.

How is segregation considered misogynistic? If you think it is, then why are you not out protesting the private schools with segregation? Are you marching in front of the local women's only gym?

[Big Guy]

.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Big Guy

[CITIZEN_2015]

Catholic schools in Ontario were segregated up to a few decades ago and some still are.

Again as I said before we live in 2016 because it is 2016. Religion out of state and religion out of schools. And also as I said it before two wrongs don't make it right. All I am saying is that people who wish or will disturbed our peaceful and joyful way of life should not be allowed in this country at the first place. This is not Arabia where daughters used to be buried alive or women with no rights even unable to drive. Those who support that culture and segregation and suppression of women's rights must stay in Arabia or move there instead of Canada.

We do not want unfortunate incidents like this here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3710274/Gang-Muslims-storm-nudist-pool-Germany-yelling-Allahu-Akbar-threatening-exterminate-women-sluts.html

Again I wish to clarify I am not advocating a ban on immigration from muslim regions as fanatics like above are in small minority even in those regions but rather selectivity in who is allowed in. Currently an overwhelming majority of Muslin population in Canada condemn these acts. Also those who condone these acts must be identified and deported to where they can treat their women as slaves. This is not tolerated here.

Edited August 17, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Argus]

How is segregation considered misogynistic? If you think it is, then why are you not out protesting the private schools with segregation? Are you marching in front of the local women's only gym?

Did you consider segregation in the old US south to be racist? I'm betting the answer to that question is "Yes".

[Argus]

Again as I said before we live in 2016 because it is 2016. Religion out of state and religion out of schools. And also as I said it before two wrongs doesn't make it rights.

People who bring up innocuous examples of genders being separated in order to excuse the extreme misogyny of Islam are simply ignoring reality.

As I have posted earlier, Islam preaches that men and women cannot mingle AT ALL except within families. Women have to be kept separate and hidden so as to not tempt men into sin. Sharia law codifies that women are worth less than a man and have less rights, and Islamic texts are filled with misogyny.

Progressives, I would like you to read some verses from the Qur’an and Hadiths:

* Qur'an (2:228) “Men have a status above women.”

* Qur'an (4:11) (on inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females"

* Qur'an (2:282) (on court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women."

* Qur'an (2:223) "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..."

* Qur’an (4:34) “If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them.”

* Bukhari (6:301) "[Mohammed] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

* Al-Tirmidhi (3272) "When [Mohammed] was asked which woman was best he replied, 'The one who pleases (her husband) when he looks at her, obeys him when he gives a command, and does not go against his wishes regarding her person or property by doing anything of which he disapproves'."

* Abu Dawud (11:2142) “[Mohammed] A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.”

* Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, pp. 112 "[Mohammed] You have rights over your wives….You have the right that they should not defile your bed and that they should not behave with open unseemliness. If they do, God allows you to put them in separate rooms and beat them”

http://www.therebel.media/you_re_either_an_islamophobe_or_a_misogynist_pick_one

Edited August 15, 2016 by Argus

[cybercoma]

Yeah, let's go and cherry pick passages from the Qu'ran from the f***ing Rebel of all places. Jesus Christ. I can't imagine they have an agenda or anything. Nevermind the fact that they ignore that one of the highest authorities in Islam is a woman, Aisha. Nevermind that there's actually feminist​ passages in the Qu'ran:

“[3:195] Their Lord responded to them: “I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female — you are equal to one another.”

“[4:124] As for those who lead a righteous life, male or female, while believing, they enter Paradise; without the slightest injustice.”

“[49:13] O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another.”

​Forget that Islam was radically​ progressive towards women at the time it:

The global attitude towards women at this time was disastrous. The West held councils to decide whether women had “souls” and regarded them as objects to be bought and sold. Practically the same situation encompassed Arabia.

Considering this, for a religion to envisage that a mother has “Paradise beneath her feet” was radical in its justice. Let alone that “Daughters are a blessing: they are kind, helpful, good companions, blessed, and like cleanliness,” or to teach that men must “Dwell with their wives in kindness for even if you hate them, you might be hating someone in whom God has placed so much good,” is progressive to say the least, and revolutionary in all fairness.

Yet again, you take the bastardization of a religion and use that bastardization to paint all of its adherents. I could sit here and cherry pick passages in the Bible that are abhorrent, like Lot offering up his daughters to be raped by the hoard of people outside his door in order to save the male visitors in his house. Or the fact that Leviticus 20:10 says that a man and a woman who commit adultery must both be stoned to death. Or the fact that the Bible calls on God's adherents to destroy everyone when God delivers his followers to the land he promised them (Deut. 7:1-2). Or Ephesians 5:22-24 that says wives are essentially slaves to their husbands. Or 1 Peter 2:15 that says women have to submit themselves to men.

I've never once seen you condemn Christianity for its abhorrent text. Not a single time. Because, yet again, your lashing out at Islam is not about the actual principles you purport to uphold. You don't hold Christians to the letter of their text because you recognize that people mostly aren't insane. Not so for Muslims. They must believe the letter of their text. The fact that you give Christians the benefit of the doubt, but you don't give that same benefit of the doubt to Muslims and preach about them ALL following this bastardized version of it that you claim they follow is exactly the problem with your arguments. What else is there to call that kind of double standard but blind bigotry?

[cybercoma]

I would also remind you that the "Muslim World," whatever the hell that means, has elected several women leaders in their states. Kim Campbell got her post by default and the United States may just finally have their first female president this year. If Muslims had such a twisted view of women as you pretend they all must have, would they really be electing them as presidents and prime ministers?

[CITIZEN_2015]

The purpose here is not to attack any religion or make comparison which is worse but rather certain behaviors which I listed (disregards for equality and rights of women, disrespect for women and other religions, suppression of women"s and human rights, and the list goes on) whose believers should be barred from entering Canada because as I said we don't wish a tense situation that now exists in Europe. Europe can be a lesson learned.

[cybercoma]

Yeah. Segregated swimming. So horrific.

[Boges]

I would also remind you that the "Muslim World," whatever the hell that means, has elected several women leaders in their states. Kim Campbell got her post by default and the United States may just finally have their first female president this year. If Muslims had such a twisted view of women as you pretend they all must have, would they really be electing them as presidents and prime ministers?

So the handful of times a woman has been elected, in mostly none Arab nations, cancels out the idea that men and women shouldn't be swimming together?

I don't think that's an apt comparison.

I think people are opposing that segregation is being instituted on non-Muslims too, also using public funding.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Boges

[CITIZEN_2015]

Yeah segregate swimming as a start and as they increase in number and power (votes) continue on segregating schools too and then why not segregate buses as well and then why not extend segregation to streets (like a lady from Kuwait was telling me) and then.............. No Thank you. Not in my Canada.