The costs and wastes of official bilingualism

[Argus]

A friend of mine is a manager in the public service, has been for five years now. She had to be bilingual, of course, to be a manager in Ottawa. Despite the fact she never uses it at work. She's not alone.

I remember when we hired her, and spent thousands on training to get her bilingualism up to snuff - for her to never use it. Now she's with another agency, and never uses it. Unfortunately, as happens in these situations, she's let it lapse. So now she's going to have to find time (and the government will pay for that time and her teacher) to get her rating back up to snuff. All managers in her building have to be bilingual you see, even though, well, they never use it. Her building is in Ottawa's southwest. Most Francophone public employees here live in Quebec. Those that don't, live in the east end. They don't want to work in the West, so there are few Francophone employees there. Doesn't matter, of course. And of course, none of the managers in her building have any contact with the public.

I support bilingualism, like, I think most Canadians. Unlike most of them I know what it means. It doesn't just mean that when a person calls the government, or drops into a government service centre, they can be dealt with in the language of their choice. It means that all those Francophone employees have to be able to be dealt with in the language of their choice, too, in house, by messengers, bosses, clerks, etc. Because of this, all managers and senior executives in Ottawa have to be fluently bilingual. Sixty percent of the staff in Ottawa are bilingual.

The rough cost of this has been pegged at about $1.5 billion, but I believe that underestimates things. It only counts the cost of training, or the cost when we send an executive off on full-time language courses. It doesn't count all the time those people spend on government time, studying and learning the other language. It also doesn't count the simple fact of promoting incompetents, or the barely competent, into the senior ranks of the public service. When you screen out 95% of potential candidates for language, after all, you're screening out most of the best candidates. When I worked for the government I knew many, many employees, managers and executives, both English and French, who never would have gotten hired were it not for this. And 95% of them never have any contact with the public in any form. It leaves us with a sort of ruling elite drawn from certain bilingual regions who's talents are mainly in growing up in a bilingual milieu, and not so much in administration, planning or leadership.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/barbara-kay-of-course-justin-trudeau-wants-bilingual-judges-hes-the-product-of-bilingual-privilege

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/j-j-mccullough-bilingualism-is-the-demand-of-canadas-linguistic-aristocracy

Edited June 28, 2016 by Argus

[?Impact]

she's let it lapse. So now she's going to have to find time (and the government will pay for that time and her teacher) to get her rating back up to snuff.

I can understand letting a second language lapse in most of Canada, but there is absolutely no excuse in either Montreal or Ottawa. There are countless opportunities each and every single day, both at work and in the community to use, maintain, and perfect your second language skills. Nobody who was educated at their employers cost in a second language in either of these cities should be allowed to let it lapse, that should be 100% on the employee. They have responsibility to maintain their skills, and that should be a condition of their continued employment. Nobody who let this happen should ever be promoted.

[Argus]

I can understand letting a second language lapse in most of Canada, but there is absolutely no excuse in either Montreal or Ottawa. There are countless opportunities each and every single day, both at work and in the community to use, maintain, and perfect your second language skills.

And yet, I thought I'd explained that no one in her workplace uses French, that few Frenchmen care to work there. And the person mentioned lives south of the city, in a small hamlet where there are also no Francophones, and does most of her shopping out there, too. If she gets into Ottawa it's normally to do some shopping in the West end.

When I worked in Ottawa my boss, also of course, bilingual, got regular weekly tutoring in order to keep his second language skills up, because, even though he worked much closer in, he rarely had the opportunity to use French either. In Ottawa, most Francophone public servants choose to work downtown, if they can, to be closer to Quebec and the East end. Or on the other side of the river in Quebec.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Argus

[jacee]

I can understand letting a second language lapse in most of Canada, but there is absolutely no excuse in either Montreal or Ottawa. There are countless opportunities each and every single day, both at work and in the community to use, maintain, and perfect your second language skills. Nobody who was educated at their employers cost in a second language in either of these cities should be allowed to let it lapse, that should be 100% on the employee. They have responsibility to maintain their skills, and that should be a condition of their continued employment. Nobody who let this happen should ever be promoted.

That's a lot of 'not allowed' 'conditions' 'not let this happen' 'not be promoted' ... heavy handedness.

I took high school French, never spoke it or wrote it for 30 years, didn't study, but passed the written civil service test. I did some written work in French, but was not allowed to speak it. Lol

Bad French is not welcome.

[Argus]

That's a lot of 'not allowed' 'conditions' 'not let this happen' 'not be promoted' ... heavy handedness.

I took high school French, never spoke it or wrote it for 30 years, didn't study, but passed the written civil service test. I did some written work in French, but was not allowed to speak it. Lol

Bad French is not welcome.

I have to say a lot of people in Ottawa feel there is a double standard in the public service when it comes to bilingualism and testing. I've run across innumerable Francophones with really, really poor English that is barely understandable. But the Anglos have to speak much better French. No, I don't have evidence, but it's the standard gossip in the public service, and not really denied by the Francophone colleagues I worked with. There is a saying among Francophones that "Their ears hurt" when they hear badly accented French. This is one of the reasons Anglos have a problem keeping their French up, even in Ottawa. There were a lot of Francophone where I worked but they would invariably switch to English if anyone addressed them in less than perfect French.

[capricorn]

I've run across innumerable Francophones with really, really poor English that is barely understandable.

In such cases, the trick is to declare that your mother tongue is English, then you will be tested in French and of course, you will ace the exam. Wonderful! That then guarantees that you will receive the bilingualism bonus, a cool $800.00 annually, for using (or not most likely) the other official language which you do not and care not master.

[jacee]

There were a lot of Francophone where I worked but they would invariably switch to English if anyone addressed them in less than perfect French.

Yes it's true.

But my point also was that it's never a waste to learn another language. It sticks with you.

.

[cybercoma]

Bilingualism has been far less a problem in Ottawa than it is in New Brunswick where the province is required by constitutional amendment to provide dual systems.

[Bryan]

The dual system in Manitoba is a pain as well. My wife went through much the same process as the person Argus describes in the OP. Lots of money spent on having her train her french (during work hours) to get it up to "fully bilingual" status as required for her job, and she literally has never used it once on the job. Nobody that we know even speaks french for her to practice, so now she's lost most of it. That doesn't matter though, because there is nothing in the job that ever requires it, she just has to have the piece of paper in her personnel file.

[Argus]

In such cases, the trick is to declare that your mother tongue is English, then you will be tested in French and of course, you will ace the exam. Wonderful! That then guarantees that you will receive the bilingualism bonus, a cool $800.00 annually, for using (or not most likely) the other official language which you do not and care not master.

The real bonus is you get a job that 95% of the competition can't apply for. You get a job that, if those people were competing for it, you probably would not get. And you get promoted where you probably wouldn't otherwise. Of course, the cost to the organization is hard to quantify since there are no budget items under "Bad management decisions made because of low quality executives."

[?Impact]

The real bonus is you get a job that 95% of the competition can't apply for.

Yes, if you want to be a public servant then speaking both official languages is a prerequisite. I guess you don't think it is a good thing that health care professionals have prerequisites, or those who build bridges, etc. Yes, all may apply, no skills needed. I made sure all my kids went through French immersion so they would have that skill if they ever needed it.

As a side note, the European Union has 24 official languages. Now you don't have to speak all 24 to get a job, but any citizen has the right to access all EU documents in any of those official languages and communicate with the EU in their own language. I guess they will soon only have 22 languages as English and Irish will be history.

[Argus]

Yes, if you want to be a public servant then speaking both official languages is a prerequisite. I guess you don't think it is a good thing that health care professionals have prerequisites, or those who build bridges, etc.

I care that they have the skills needed to actually do the work. To suggest that bilingualism is simply a prerequisite so should be accepted is to say, well, you have to be able to stand on your head while juggling pork roasts in order to be a software engineer. Hey, you can't do that? Well, too bad. That's a prerequisite, you know.

Yes, all may apply, no skills needed. I made sure all my kids went through French immersion so they would have that skill if they ever needed it.

So the fact they can't count doesn't matter, eh? I don't think it's right to hire the guy who's number 239th in his graduating class simply because unlike the rest he speaks French - when the job doesn't actually require French to be done.

As a side note, the European Union has 24 official languages. Now you don't have to speak all 24 to get a job, but any citizen has the right to access all EU documents in any of those official languages and communicate with the EU in their own language.

And the EU is a grossly bloated, ineffective and inefficient bureaucracy, which, evidently, you much admire.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Argus

[?Impact]

So the fact they can't count doesn't matter, eh?

No, if their job requires them to count then that is important too. Working memory, also needed in math, is improved; that is especially helpful during the early grades although immersion kids generally catch up (but don't surpass) by later elementary school grades. Reading scores for English are also higher among French immersion students throughout elementary and secondary.

[Argus]

No, if their job requires them to count then that is important too. Working memory, also needed in math, is improved; that is especially helpful during the early grades although immersion kids generally catch up (but don't surpass) by later elementary school grades. Reading scores for English are also higher among French immersion students throughout elementary and secondary.

Immersion is largely a waste of time, an opportunity for upper middle class helicopter parents to get their kids into a sort of private school at public cost, because all the poor kids are weeded out. Most don't achieve much proficiency in French and most lose it soon after unless they're in a bilingual area.

http://www.macleans.ca/education/just-say-non-the-problem-with-french-immersion/

Edited June 29, 2016 by Argus

[cybercoma]

The dual system in Manitoba is a pain as well. My wife went through much the same process as the person Argus describes in the OP. Lots of money spent on having her train her french (during work hours) to get it up to "fully bilingual" status as required for her job, and she literally has never used it once on the job. Nobody that we know even speaks french for her to practice, so now she's lost most of it. That doesn't matter though, because there is nothing in the job that ever requires it, she just has to have the piece of paper in her personnel file.

Manitoba doesn't have dual systems the way NB does. There literally needs to be separate health care and education systems here and it's required by the constitution.

[August1991]

A friend of mine is a manager in the public service, has been for five years now. She had to be bilingual, of course, to be a manager in Ottawa. Despite the fact she never uses it at work. She's not alone.

....

I support bilingualism, like, I think most Canadians.

....

Argus, given Brexit, it is time to rethink "federalism" and "government".

====

IMHO, people working in a federal civil service should be able to speak all languages of the federal/region area. With that said, bureaucrats in Brussels are not required to translate all documents into Norwegian.

Why is Norway separate?

Edited June 29, 2016 by August1991

[Bryan]

Manitoba doesn't have dual systems the way NB does. There literally needs to be separate health care and education systems here and it's required by the constitution.

We do have separate education systems. With healthcare it's just one, but everything has to be in both languages everywhere.

There were attempts over time to try to act as an english province that makes french available, but that was struck down as unconstitutional, and we are required to be equally english and french. It's a mess.

[cannuck]

The real bonus is you get a job that 95% of the competition can't apply for. You get a job that, if those people were competing for it, you probably would not get. And you get promoted where you probably wouldn't otherwise. Of course, the cost to the organization is hard to quantify since there are no budget items under "Bad management decisions made because of low quality executives."

The real bonus is you get a job that 95% of the competition can't apply for. You get a job that, if those people were competing for it, you probably would not get. And you get promoted where you probably wouldn't otherwise. Of course, the cost to the organization is hard to quantify since there are no budget items under "Bad management decisions made because of low quality executives."

Actually, there is. We call it the national debt.

[The_Squid]

It's absolutely silly that Canada talks up bilingualism without actually being a bilingual country. Every kid should be fluent in French and English by the time they graduate.

Every school should be "French immersion".

[Argus]

It's absolutely silly that Canada talks up bilingualism without actually being a bilingual country. Every kid should be fluent in French and English by the time they graduate.

Every school should be "French immersion".

French immersion does not work. And we are not a bilingual country. We are a country of two linguistic groups who mostly live separately. About 20% of Canadians are French, but 90% of those are in Quebec. That's why it's a waste of time trying to teach westerners or Ontarions outside Ottawa and a few small places in the north French.

[The_Squid]

French immersion does not work. And we are not a bilingual country. We are a country of two linguistic groups who mostly live separately. About 20% of Canadians are French, but 90% of those are in Quebec. That's why it's a waste of time trying to teach westerners or Ontarions outside Ottawa and a few small places in the north French.

It works very well. It teaches French.

I am saying the country should be truly bilingual. Teach everyone a 2nd language. We would all be better off for it.

[-TSS-]

Finland has a bit similar situation to Canada as we also have official bilingualism with Swedish being the second official language despite spoken only by about 5% of the population and them on narrow strips on the coastline. But it was the language of the elite, so what can you do.

The difference to Canada is obviously that French also is a major global language which may come handy in many situations all around the world when as both Finnish and Swedish are dwarf-languages not understood outside Finland and Sweden(though the Swedes insist that Swedish is understood in Norway and Denmark as well)

[The_Squid]

Finland has a bit similar situation to Canada as we also have official bilingualism with Swedish being the second official language despite spoken only by about 5% of the population and them on narrow strips on the coastline. But it was the language of the elite, so what can you do.

The difference to Canada is obviously that French also is a major global language which may come handy in many situations all around the world when as both Finnish and Swedish are dwarf-languages not understood outside Finland and Sweden(though the Swedes insist that Swedish is understood in Norway and Denmark as well)

These days, every Finn knows English when they are still children and it does them very well to learn a 2nd (or 3rd) language. In Canada, many people sneer at the concept of teaching children a 2nd language. It's a bizarre, politically driven viewpoint that wants to keep people stupid. I can't relate to that.

[Peter F]

These days, every Finn knows English when they are still children and it does them very well to learn a 2nd (or 3rd) language. In Canada, many people sneer at the concept of teaching children a 2nd language. It's a bizarre, politically driven viewpoint that wants to keep people stupid. I can't relate to that.

I've noticed the same. Most English would rather shoot a dog than deign to learn another language. It is bizarre .

[Argus]

It works very well. It teaches French.

I am saying the country should be truly bilingual. Teach everyone a 2nd language. We would all be better off for it.

And as I posted above, without the ability to use it in daily lives, it quickly fades away. So why spend so much time and effort teaching it to those who will not use it?