Yzermandius19 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Boges said: Ahhh so Trump can just make shit up and that's the narrative. Facts be damned. That's why he keeps saying a Transcript that specifically has him asking a political favour from another leader clears him of any wrongdoing. Trump is a better liar, Democrats don't have liar that skilled. Another reason he's going to win in 2020. The narrative that Clinton lost because she was too far to the right is exactly why the Democrats will lose in 2020, they have it exactly backwards. Obama won the Rust Belt by playing to the center, not running to the far left. Clinton lost the rust belt playing to the far left and abandoning the center, thinking that's why she lost to Obama because Obama outflanked her on the left in the primary, and that was why Obama won the Rust Belt in 2008 and 2012, but she had it backwards, and her overreaction cost her dearly. The Democrats are now doubling down on her failed strategy, thinking there is nothing wrong with the strategy, it's all Clinton's fault, the strategy is unstoppable without her running. But they are simply buying their own press releases, trapped in the bubble of their urban cantonments, projecting their views on the rest of America. Edited November 5, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) The Dems should just run Warren or Sanders, because if Biden wins the nomination and loses to Trump, which he will, they will probably think that is a sign they need to go even further to the left in 2024, misreading another election loss yet again, and that will cost them 2024 as well. Better to tank with a candidate running as a far lefty now and see how dumb a strategy that is in 2020, instead of trying it in 2024 and losing yet again. They have no one who can beat Trump, and running the candidate who will fail the least will likely result in them taking the wrong lessons from 2020, just like they did in 2016. If I were the Democrats, I'd rather not take that risk, just tank for the good of the party long term, and discredit that far left nonsense dragging them down like an anchor. Edited November 5, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: The Dems should just run Warren or Sanders, because if Biden wins the nomination and loses to Trump, which he will, they will probably think that is a sign they need to go even further to the left in 2024, misreading another election loss yet again, and that will cost them 2024 as well. Better to tank with a candidate running as a far lefty now and see how dumb a strategy that is in 2020, instead of trying it in 2024 and losing yet again. They have no one who can beat Trump, and running the candidate who will fail the least will likely result in them taking the wrong lessons from 2020, just like they did in 2016. If I were the Democrats, I'd rather not take that risk, just tank for the good of the party long term, and discredit that far left nonsense dragging them down like an anchor. I think your opinion of what's far to the left is rather skewed. Is Mayor Pete far to the Left? What of Kamala Harris? Sorry but your definitive predictions are tiring. Lets just debate on what people think is going to happen when no one knows what will happen. It's a year out and the Democrats haven't nominated anyone. Edited November 5, 2019 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Boges said: I think your opinion of what's far to the left is rather skewed. Is Mayor Pete far to the Left? What of Kamala Harris? Sorry but your definitive predictions are tiring. Lets just debate on what people think is going to happen when no one knows what will happen. It's a year out and the Democrats haven't nominated anyone. Kamala is running to the far left, Pete is running to the far left as well. Buttigieg and Biden are least far left Democrats running with a chance of winning the nomination, but they are both running to the far left. All the Dem candidates are running further left in 2020 than Clinton was in 2016. The Dems are much further left in 2020 than they were in 2016, and they were much further to left in 2016 than they were in 2012, and further to left in 2012 than they were in 2008 as well. This constant leftward movement is a dumb strategy, and it will cost them in the general. Edited November 5, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said: Kamala is running to the far left, Pete is running to the far left as well. Buttigieg and Biden are least far left Democrats running, but they are both running to the far left. All the Dem candidates are running further left in 2020 than Clinton was in 2016. Cool Story Bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Boges said: Cool Story Bro. It's clearly apparent. You just don't know what the center is in America, because you are used to Canadian politics where the center is clearly on the left. Hence why you think the Republicans are way out there and the Democrats are closer to the center. Democrats are closer to Canadian Center, but further than the Republicans from the American center. When Obama was running, the Democrats were closer to the American center and Republicans were too far to the right, now that Trump is running, the Republicans are closer to the American center and Democrats are too far to the left. Edited November 5, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said: It's clearly apparent. You just don't know what the center is in America, because you are used to Canadian politics where the center is clearly on the left. Hence why you think the Republicans are way out there and the Democrats are closer to the center. Democrats are closer to Canadian Center, but further than the Republicans from the American center. When Obama was running, the Democrats were closer to the American center and Republicans were too far to the right, now that Trump is running, the Republicans are closer to the American center and Democrats are too far to the left. Yes, but you just had a POTUS that was labelled as a Muslims Socialist by the Right. And then a Granny who's married to one of the the most Centrist POTUS in American history is retroactively further to Left of him. Give me a break. You've got some revisionist history. All you've come up with is an Open Border policy that you haven't backed up with any actual citation. Revisionist history that Obama is suddenly some moderate to justify why the GOP got destroyed by him is a false narrative. Obama governed from the Centre because he had to. He was painted as a socialist. Just like Trump will of whoever the Dems nominate. Your assuming Americans will believe any lie Trump preaches. If that's the case, Murika is gullible AF and deserve what they get. A POTUS that cares more about his hotels than the American people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Boges said: Yes, but you just had a POTUS that was labelled as a Muslims Socialist by the Right. And then a Granny who's married to one of the the most Centrist POTUS in American history is retroactively further to Left of him. Give me a break. You've got some revisionist history. All you've come up with is an Open Border policy that you haven't backed up with any actual citation. Revisionist history that Obama is suddenly some moderate to justify why the GOP got destroyed by him is a false narrative. Obama governed from the Centre because he had to. He was painted as a socialist. Just like Trump will of whoever the Dems nominate. Your assuming Americans will believe any lie Trump preaches. If that's the case, Murika is gullible AF and deserve what they get. A POTUS that cares more about his hotels than the American people. The pejoratives the right used to slander Obama are irrelevant, has nothing to do with reality, clearly Republicans weren't selling voters on Muslim socialist tip, or they would have won. Clearly Obama Derangement Syndrome was a clear example of Republicans moving too far to the right and conceding the center to Democrats. If you go back to every American election in the last fifty years, the party that was the closest to the center won the presidency, and it goes back further than that. You can act like it's impossible to predict who the president will be, but it's actually really easy, some people just suck at it. Edited November 5, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 Just now, Yzermandius19 said: The pejoratives the right used to slander Obama are irrelevant, has nothing to do with reality. If you go back to every American election in the last fifty years, the party that was the closest to the center won the presidency, and it goes back further than that. Again, Revisionist history. You're saying that John McCain was farther from the Centre than Obama. BULLSHIT!!! Ditto with Gore v Dubya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Boges said: Again, Revisionist history. You're saying that John McCain was farther from the Centre than Obama. BULLSHIT!!! Ditto with Gore v Dubya. McCain was too far to the right, conceded the center to Obama. Gore was too far to the left, conceded the center to Dubya. Not revisionist history, follows the model exactly. The idea that Dubya was far right and Obama was far left, is just incorrect, they ran to the center, and that's why they won. Compassionate Conservatism, No Red States/ No Blue States. Wake up. Like I say, you don't know what American center is. Edited November 5, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: McCain was too far to the right, conceded the center to Obama. Gore was too far to the left, conceded the center to Dubya. Not revisionist history, follows the model exactly. Again. BULLSHIT!!! Look at McCain in his final years as the opposition to Trump. You're saying he suddenly changed? You're talking about the guy who vetoed the repeal of Obamacare. The man had to nominate Sarah Palin as his running mate to try and help him from the Right. He was going to nominate a Democrat as his running mate he was that centrist. Revisionist. History. All this to claim that Obama was to the Right of any candidate for the 2020 election. So you can claim that Trump will undoubtably win the election no matter who the Democrats nominate. Edited November 5, 2019 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Boges said: Again. BULLSHIT!!! Look at McCain in his final years as the opposition to Trump. You're saying he suddenly changed. You're talking about the guy who vetoed the repeal of Obamacare. Revisionist. History. All this to claim that Obama was to the Right of any candidate for the 2020 election. So you can claim that Trump will undoubtably win the election no matter who the Democrats nominate. Obama is to the right of all the 2020 Democrats. Trump will win no matter who they nominate, they have conceded the center to Trump. Trump is not far right, he has moved the Republicans left of where they were in 2008 and 2012, while the Democrats have also moved to the left since then. The result is that Democrats are moving further away from center while Republicans are moving closer to it. Trump is a New York Liberal who hijacked the Republican Party, he didn't win by moving the Republicans to the right, he won by moving them towards the center. McCain and Romney are both further to the right than Trump. Edited November 5, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said: Obama is to the right of all the 2020 Democrats. Trump will win no matter who they nominate, they have conceded the center to Trump. Trump is not far right, he has moved the Republicans left of where they were in 2008 and 2012. That's your baked in narrative. Guess there's no point in debating someone that doesn't really appreciate facts. I'll agree that Trump isn't really a Conservative. Which is why it's interesting that so many actual conservatives have jumped on his bandwagon just for the win. When he really hasn't done all that much short of a Tax Cut that's ballooned the debt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Boges said: That's your baked in narrative. Guess there's no point in debating someone that doesn't really appreciate facts. I'll agree that Trump isn't really a Conservative. Which is why it's interesting that so many actual conservatives have jumped on his bandwagon just for the win. When he really hasn't done all that much short of a Tax Cut that's ballooned the debt. Trump is further left than McCain and Romney. 2016 Clinton and the 2020 Dem Field are further to the left than Obama. Those are facts, you are the one who doesn't appreciate facts. Edited November 5, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: Trump is further left than McCain and Romney. 2016 Clinton and the 2020 Dem Field are further to the left than Obama. Those are facts, you are the one who doesn't appreciate facts. Those are not facts, they're subjective opinions. Edited November 5, 2019 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, Boges said: Those are not facts, they're subjective opinions. Whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Anthony Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 Folks, Stay on topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 2 hours ago, -TSS- said: Imagine if a sane person entered the Democratic-race. That person would stand no chance among Warren, Harris, Sanders. It’s possible. Another possibility is if someone were to step up and speak about Donald Trump as if he was just an ordinary human being. Not the devil on Earth. Even if they said “I don’t dislike everything he’s done as president”. Then discuss what they would do. It would be like a breath of fresh air in a stinky room. If someone normal were to take a rational position against Trump, without emotions or hype, it would be a way to defeat him. But they’re not smart enough to go with that. The suckers fall for Trumps game every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) We were just talking about the dynamics that resulted in "america under president trump" and that's somehow off-topic? /shrugs Whatever. I'm done discussing it with someone like Boges who refuses to argue in good faith on the subject, and in this thread in general, so I'm just going to drop it anyway, as per your request. But it's 100% on-topic. Edited November 5, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said: We were just talking about the dynamics that resulted in "america under president trump" and that's somehow off-topic? /shrugs Whatever. I'm done discussing it with someone like Boges who refuses to argue in good faith on the subject, and in this thread in general, so I'm just going to drop it anyway, as per your request. But it's 100% on-topic. I'm arguing with your conclusions that someone's place on the political spectrum is an objective fact. I'm unsure how it's bad faith. I will agree it's 100% not thread drift. Though it does distract from the Impeachment hearings. I can see why you'd do that. https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/05/politics/gordon-sondland-kurt-volker-transcripts-impeachment-inquiry/index.html Quote In a significant reversal, a top US diplomat has changed his testimony in the impeachment inquiry to now admit there was a quid pro quo linking US aid to Ukraine with an investigation into President Donald Trump's political rival. US Ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland sent the committee a three-page addition to his testimony on Monday, saying he had remembered a September 1 conversation that occurred on the sidelines of a meeting between Vice President Mike Pence and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, in which he told at op aide to Zelensky that the security aid and investigations were linked. Sondland was the guy who responded to Bill Taylor's exasperation that Military Aid was being withheld in exchange for investigations into the Democrats by claiming there was no Quid Pro Quo in a very lawyered text. Well he's jumped ship off of the Trump Ship. Edited November 5, 2019 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 4 hours ago, Boges said: I'll agree that Trump isn't really a Conservative. Which is why it's interesting that so many actual conservatives have jumped on his bandwagon just for the win. When he really hasn't done all that much short of a Tax Cut that's ballooned the debt. Why do you continue to ignore Trump's other actions and appeal to conservative and other voters ? Paris Climate Agreement - U.S. to leave Conservative Supreme Court justices - 2 and counting Lower courts being filled with conservative judges Obamacare IRS penalty - no longer exists Unemployment rate at 50 year lows Stock market at all time highs Illegal immigration deportations / ICE enforcement NAFTA 2.0, Korea & Japan trade agreements, bye-bye TPP U.S. embassy moved to Jerusalem More U.S. steel and aluminum production; more manufacturing jobs created Approved Keystone XL pipeline across northern border; NuStar Burgos oil pipeline from Mexico Historic Kim Jong-Un DPRK summit; repatriation of MIA remains Withdraw from illegal Iran Nuclear Deal NATO deadbeats increased defense spending ISIS war ROE's changed....bombs away ! Veterans affairs Hate Trump all you want, but he is not a just a GOP tax cut pony. The Democrats still haven't figured out how to beat him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 16 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Why do you continue to ignore Trump's other actions and appeal to conservative and other voters ? Paris Climate Agreement - U.S. to leave So what? Wasn't going to meet those targets anyway. And if they did it'd be in spite of him. Conservative Supreme Court justices - 2 and counting Thanks to Mitch! Lower courts being filled with conservative judges Any Repub would do that Obamacare IRS penalty - no longer exists Yet failed to get it repealed Unemployment rate at 50 year lows As a Private Citizen Trump decried Obama's good Employment numbers as phoney. Stock market at all time highs Ditto Illegal immigration deportations / ICE enforcement Like Obama? NAFTA 2.0, Korea & Japan trade agreements, bye-bye TPP Good for Canada! U.S. embassy moved to Jerusalem Slow Clap, piss off Palestinians and make peace less likely More U.S. steel and aluminum production; more manufacturing jobs created Cite? https://www.manufacturing.net/economics/news/21095925/why-tariffs-havent-revitalized-american-steelmakers Approved Keystone XL pipeline across northern border; NuStar Burgos oil pipeline from Mexico Sure! if Oil was the future, it's not. Historic Kim Jong-Un DPRK summit; repatriation of MIA remains LOL, Has he given up his Nuclear Weapons? He's just made South Korea less safe. Withdraw from illegal Iran Nuclear Deal And into the arms of Russia. NATO deadbeats increased defense spending Cite? ISIS war ROE's changed....bombs away ! And pissed off everyone by leaving Syria Veterans affairs What about it? Hate Trump all you want, but he is not a just a GOP tax cut pony. The Democrats still haven't figured out how to beat him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Boges said: So what? Wasn't going to meet those targets anyway. And if they did it'd be in spite of him. You still don't get it...what you think about Trump's accomplishments means nothing...you can't vote in the election. Quote NATO states will increase their defence spending by $100 billion in response to Donald Trump's demands that European allies shoulder a greater financial burden, the alliance's secretary general has said. Jens Stoltenberg said on Sunday that the alliance had heard Mr Trump's call for non-US members to shoulder a greater financial burden "loud and clear" and that allies are "stepping up." https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/27/nato-members-increase-defence-spending-100-billion-donald-trump/ Quote A TV ad from Democratic presidential candidate Kirsten Gillibrand accuses President Donald Trump of breaking his promise to protect and create manufacturing jobs. Despite some plant closures, there has been a net increase of nearly 500,000 manufacturing jobs on Trump’s watch. https://www.factcheck.org/2019/07/gillibrand-attacks-trump-on-manufacturing-jobs/ Edited November 5, 2019 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannucklehead Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/4123664002 https://www.google.cim/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2019/07/05/trump-is-falling-almost-1-million-jobs-short-vs-obama/amp/ Even if I cannot vote in the u.s. I can still stay Obama was 10x better than trump even on Obama's worst day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Cannucklehead said: Even if I cannot vote in the u.s. I can still stay Obama was 10x better than trump even on Obama's worst day. You can "stay" whatever you want, but that is totally irrelevant to President Trump's appeal for conservative and independent voters. Trump is just another American president, and he will succeed and fail just like all the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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