Dougie93 Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 13 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: Like I've said from the beginning, this isn't about actual impeachment. It's another smear campaign disguised as an investigation, just like the Russian collusion smear that helped the Dems get the majority in congress even though it was completely bogus right from the start. No argument here, but since Impeachment is political, it does not require evidence of a crime, the House need only vote it up to the Senate for trial. But it's like the Bill Clinton impeachment, it's not going to end with removal from office, and don't forget that Clinton's popularity went up after he was impeached, 73% approval rating. All it really does is get the impeached Presidents base fired up, they rally around their guy in the face of the attempted coup de tat by legislative sophistry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 There was a time in America when impeachment had some gravitas, some weight to it, but no more. Both parties have reduced it to nothing more than a partisan stunt, first with Clinton, now with Trump. At this point, whenever one of the parties loses the election, they try to gin up some sort of rubric for impeachment. It's lost all credibility now, it's just media flapping and clickbait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 35 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: There was a time in America when impeachment had some gravitas, some weight to it, but no more. Yeah it's getting to the point where it's anti-democratic. Still, it's pretty amazing to see Trump being able to plow forward against so much resistance. Funny how Trudeau is guilty of so many ethics violations and he can just fire bitches and unilaterally shut down investigations and the media in Canada is silent, while Trump still hasn't been found guilty of anything and yet the investigations into him never stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 50 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: Yeah it's getting to the point where it's anti-democratic. Still, it's pretty amazing to see Trump being able to plow forward against so much resistance. Funny how Trudeau is guilty of so many ethics violations and he can just fire bitches and unilaterally shut down investigations and the media in Canada is silent, while Trump still hasn't been found guilty of anything and yet the investigations into him never stop. As I keep saying, Canada is not a republic. Contrary to popular sentiment, the monarchy is not symbolic, Canada is much different from the United States constitutionally. As the Queen's Executive, the Prime Minister has far more power and is far less accountable than an American President. Canadians have some delusion that Canada is more "left wing" than America, but that's not the case in terms of the constitution. The only thing that really constrains the Prime Minister is his own MP's, but they're almost all cronies, and Canadians don't care, Canadians are mostly cronies too. The pathetic nature of Canadian crony politics is a product of Canadian crony culture, it's a crony country. Look at Jane Philpot, she did the right thing, she upheld her oath, and the cronies in Markham punished her for not being a crony. There aren't the same checks and balances in Canada, this is why its becoming totalitarian. Edited October 24, 2019 by Dougie93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 14 hours ago, WestCanMan said: Wrong. He sent a second shipment of Javelins after the whistleblower complaint came to light. Obama refused to send them any Javelins. Cite. Provide any source that the shipment wasn't related to the Whistleblower complaint. The call took place a week before the shipment with withheld. Taylor was clear that he was asked to withhold the shipment and put a hold on a WH meeting in order to leverage an investigation into CrowdStrike and the Biden's. Quote Trump was clear that he was pressuring other NATO countries to step up. He has been saying ever since he was elected that the US doesn't always have to foot the entire bill for everything. Trump has saved the US billions in overseas wars. Wars in the ME are costing ME'ers their own lives and their own money. That's the way it should be. That shouldn't be a deciding factor in giving congressionally appropriated aide. It's not his money to spend. AND https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/sep/25/donald-trump/donald-trump-said-european-nations-have-not-put-mo/ Quote After 2014, the European Union and its financial assistance agencies put together $15 billion mainly in loans but also in direct grants to Ukraine. Spokeswoman Maja Kocijancic told PolitiFact in statement that described it as "the largest support package in the history of the European Union." The package includes over 2 billion euros in grants, 49 million euros to monitor the truce in Eastern Ukraine, and a 3.5 billion euros loan package to develop and restore the county’s banking, agriculture and transportation systems. Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development data shows that in 2016-2017, the European Union provided $425 million in development aid, with the United States spending $204 million, Germany $189 million and Japan $180 million. "The Europeans did a whole lot more than the United States in terms of actual cash put into the Ukrainian budget," said Samuel Charap, a Ukraine analyst with RAND, a nonprofit research organization. It just a convenient excuse and further's Putin's goal to put a wedge between the US and Nato. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Boges said: The call took place a week before the shipment with withheld. Ukraine didn't know, and thus there was no Quid Pro Quo purely about the Biden's in exchange for it, because they were unaware they weren't getting the shipment on time. Derp. Edited October 24, 2019 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: Ukraine didn't know, and thus there was no Quid Pro Quo purely about the Biden's in exchange for it, because they were unaware they weren't getting the shipment on time. Derp. Wanna cite that? Zelensky was pretty keen on getting that aide in the call. This is the game I have to play. There's specific text messages where Ukrainian officials link an article about withheld US Aide to a diplomat saying like WTF? But now that Bill Taylor appeared before congress yesterday, finding that text message requires more Google digging. And I had already cited it pages earlier in this thread. But for this argument to be legit I would have to dig it up again. It's exhausting. Yet Trump fans make un cited claims all the time. Edited October 24, 2019 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 Trump does so much stupid shit that the fact he didn't know that Colorado wasn't a border state is just a passing chuckle. https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/24/politics/colorado-wall-donald-trump/index.html But then he can't let an error lie, he then says he said it on purpose because people in Colorado might be in the crowd. . . A crowd in Pittsburgh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 17 hours ago, WestCanMan said: Yeah it's getting to the point where it's anti-democratic. Expand. What's anti-democratic about what's happening? The bewildering tactic by the GOP now is to claim the hearings being held in private is somehow sneaky. Republicans are allowed in these hearings and before an impeachment vote there will be Public hearings. Wouldn't anyone think that having Bill Taylor say what he did this week on TV would be far more damaging to Trump than in private? Edited October 24, 2019 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 5 hours ago, Boges said: It just a convenient excuse and further's Putin's goal to put a wedge between the US and Nato. Other NATO members have done a lot more to create such a wedge by not meeting the 2% defence spending...like Canada. Fight Putin on your own dime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Boges said: Expand. What's anti-democratic about what's happening? So you do not favour public hearings and transparency...got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannucklehead Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Other NATO members have done a lot more to create such a wedge by not meeting the 2% defence spending...like Canada. Fight Putin on your own dime. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/5494990/nato-secretary-general-meet-trudeau-toronto/amp/ I guess you're running NATO now huh? Yeah we know, not enough. Just like afghanistan and our non involvement in Iraq. Transparency is great, but some things need to be revealed public at certain times. Kinda like those JFK documents the CIA refuses to release after 50 years..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said: I guess you're running NATO now huh? No, it is NATO deadbeats like Canada running to Trump to protect the "post WW2 order" (Chrystia Freeland). Fight Putin on your own dime. Quote Transparency is great, but some things need to be revealed public at certain times. Kinda like those JFK documents the CIA refuses to release after 50 years..... The "public" has every right to know....now. This ain't Canada. Edited October 24, 2019 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannucklehead Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 All I hear is gibberish from someone who has no clue about anything and is in no position to decide nato affairs. Advise trump to pull out of nato if you are so concerned about your dime while your leader blows it on a wall an eight year old girl can climb in seconds. And no, the public doesnt have a right to know. One Republican who has been able to attend the proceedings, Rep. Chris Stewart of Utah, acknowledged that the closed-door nature of the impeachment proceedings are consistent with the House’s procedures. “This may be within House rules. That’s not the question. The question is, is it a good idea to impeach the president in secret hearings?” Stewart said. “This may very well be within Chairman Schiff’s and Nancy Pelosi’s authority to do this. I think it’s a bad idea.” Dont like the rules? Change them or live with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said: All I hear is gibberish from someone who has no clue about anything and is in no position to decide nato affairs. Advise trump to pull out of nato if you are so concerned about your dime while your leader blows it on a wall an eight year old girl can climb in seconds. I'm not concerned about an expensive wall....but I will not support NATO deadbeats who insist that America pays more to keep NATO viable. Trump has already threatened to defund NATO, just like previous U.S. presidents' "gibberish" calling for some members to stop being deadbeats if they are so concerned about things like "Putin". Boo ! NATO deadbeats like Canada have plans to increase spending because of such threats and pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannucklehead Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: I'm not concerned about an expensive wall....but I will not support NATO deadbeats who insist that America pays more to keep NATO viable. Trump has already threatened to defund NATO, just like previous U.S. presidents' "gibberish" calling for some members to stop being deadbeats if they are so concerned about things like "Putin". Boo ! NATO deadbeats like Canada have plans to increase spending because of such threats and pressure. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/trump-at-nato-from-sad-to-tremendous/amp/ Yeah that's because trump doesn't really live on earth, as the saying goes. And then he cozies up to putin like they are in some kind of bromance while flinging mud at his allies in nato. Guy changes his mind faster and more often than I switch gears when driving. And people wonder why I call him a paper tiger.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Cannucklehead said: Yeah that's because trump doesn't really live on earth, as the saying goes. And then he cozies up to putin like they are in some kind of bromance while flinging mud at his allies in nato. But it's not just Trump....Obama, Bush, and other presidents have also called out NATO deadbeats like Canada in the past. If you are so worried about Putin, then do something about it besides more whining about Trump. Hell, Bernie Sanders wants to add Putin/Russia to NATO.....bromance ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 6 hours ago, Boges said: Cite. Provide any source that the shipment wasn't related to the Whistleblower complaint. Uhhhh no? You're the one who needs to provide proof that the second shipment was only sent because of the complaint. Burden of proof lies with the accuser, unless they're Dems. You're just a civilian. Quote The call took place a week before the shipment with withheld. Taylor was clear that he was asked to withhold the shipment and put a hold on a WH meeting in order to leverage an investigation into CrowdStrike and the Biden's. Cite. You need exact proof that the order went out that no missiles would move without an investigation. And to be honest, American voters won't care if there was a need for an "investigation". It is diabolical if they required results that were damaging to Biden. Quote That shouldn't be a deciding factor in giving congressionally appropriated aide. It's not his money to spend. The President has a veto over most things, I'm certain this is included. G Bush senior threatened to veto aid to Israel in the past. If Trump wanted to hold off on giving the second round of aid while he negotiated with other NATO countries to step up militarily that's his call. He is a duly elected POTUS. Quote AND https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/sep/25/donald-trump/donald-trump-said-european-nations-have-not-put-mo/ Mainly in loans. From your article. Trump GAVE military aid. He requested other NATO allies do the same before he GAVE more military aid. Otherwise it's just the US giving military aid while the rest of Europe sits on their hands. Giving military aid means that you're stepping up to the plate. Not giving military aid means that you're neutral. Quote It just a convenient excuse and further's Putin's goal to put a wedge between the US and Nato. What's this re:? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannucklehead Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 Wont argue on Sanders, he called it North america treaty organization. Guy is a few donuts short of a dozen. Obama wanted more Canada spending in NATO because of the crimea annex thing, because he knew sanctions would not stop russia, as we are now seeing that they are able to take syria thanks to trump pulling out the troops. That's why they are raising the limit in 2024. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Boges said: Expand. What's anti-democratic about what's happening? The bewildering tactic by the GOP now is to claim the hearings being held in private is somehow sneaky. Republicans are allowed in these hearings and before an impeachment vote there will be Public hearings. Wouldn't anyone think that having Bill Taylor say what he did this week on TV would be far more damaging to Trump than in private? It's not a real process. The Dems know that successfully impeaching the President is another one of their crackpipe dreams. This is a total smear campaign and has nothing to do with actual impeachable material. The Dems are being sneaky and underhanded, DUH! Are you honestly acting like you don't know that? Why do you think that Schiff was meeting with the "whistleblower" privately before his report came out, and why do you think that he lied about that fact and tried to hide it? That was never a "whistleblower" report. It was an Adam Schiff story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Cannucklehead said: Wont argue on Sanders, he called it North america treaty organization. Guy is a few donuts short of a dozen. ...and yet Bernie Sanders remains very popular with "progressive" American voters over many of his more hawkish competitors. Quote Obama wanted more Canada spending in NATO because of the crimea annex thing, because he knew sanctions would not stop russia, as we are now seeing that they are able to take syria thanks to trump pulling out the troops. That's why they are raising the limit in 2024. I don't know why it is so hard to accept Trump's premise.....if NATO is so important and Putin is so much of a threat, then why do some other NATO members keep dragging their feet on defence spending ? My only conclusion is that the NATO deadbeats like Canada are happy to and will continue to spend less than 2% of GDP as long as they can run to the USA. It's a game that has been played for decades...how dare Trump ruin it for Europe and Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannucklehead Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 Well that's great for progressive americans. I am Canadian. It's a game, like chess. Trump is just too busy playing checkers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said: Well that's great for progressive americans. I am Canadian. ??? Sanders and Trump are Americans....so why are you so concerned at all vis-a-vis NATO ? Worry about Canada's role instead of America's presidents and their decisions. Or are you readily admitting that the NATO alliance is not militarily viable without U.S. membership and spending ? Quote It's a game, like chess. Trump is just too busy playing checkers. ...and Trump is winning at checkers, driving the EU and Canada nuts by exposing them as "paper tigers". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannucklehead Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 Yeah why would a Canadian care at all about NATO when americans talk about it. Americans are not members right?????? Trump may be winning at checkers but he is losing at chess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said: Yeah why would a Canadian care at all about NATO when americans talk about it. Americans are not members right?????? Trump may be winning at checkers but he is losing at chess. True...why do you worry so much about Trump/NATO ? Obviously Canada is less committed to the alliance based on defence spending goals, agreed to by NATO long before Trump became president. Trump was never going to play chess...because that's how things got the way they are. Checkers cuts through all the BS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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