Fort McMurray wildfire

Big Guy · May 5, 2016

you don't have a clue what you're talking about but you sure feel certain enough to decide who's to blame....

Thank you for your expert evaluation. Shit happens. That is why we have contingency plans which kick in accordingly and depending on the escalation of a problem. You appear to "have a clue" so where were the contingency plans? This fire started on Sunday. Where was the help from other provinces? Perhaps you could share your clue with me?

I can understand that other small fires are currently burning all over Canada but how many were in possible danger of wiping out a Canadian town of 80,000 people? You think maybe they would have the priority? I do.

BubberMiley · May 5, 2016

Thank you for your expert evaluation. Shit happens. That is why we have contingency plans which kick in accordingly and depending on the escalation of a problem. You appear to "have a clue" so where were the contingency plans? This fire started on Sunday. Where was the help from other provinces? Perhaps you could share your clue with me?

I can understand that other small fires are currently burning all over Canada but how many were in possible danger of wiping out a Canadian town of 80,000 people? You think maybe they would have the priority? I do.

Unfortunately the bureaucrats and firefighters aren't as gifted at predicting the future as you are at predicting the past.

?Impact · May 5, 2016

Here is another false colour satellite image. This is from a pass of the Landsat 7 satellite, and a different type of imager than the one I posted yesterday. It was taken yesterday, although I don't can't find the specific time. Comparing the two images would show you how the fire progressed over about 24 hours.

http://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/87000/87988/mcmurray_etm_2016125_swir_lrg.jpg

overthere · May 5, 2016

Every province with trees has special forest fire fighting units. There is also an inter provincial coordinating organization whose role is to organize additional people and supplies where an emergency exists. Where were the units from BC, Saskatchewan, Manitoba an even Ontario?

If you feel that nobody screwed up in this case then you accept the fact that what happened was inevitable. I do not.

I can accept that you are ignorant of the reality of large fires.

I am not. The scope and ferocity and speed of the flames is fearsome, primal and essentially unstoppable.

I have seen many big ones near places I have lived in the North, and they have this in common: once the fire is established, the very best humans can do is try to protect high priority structures. The emphasis in that sentence is 'try'.

The best hope to stop the fire is rain and a lot of it. The next best is for wind shifts that turn the fire back on itself, so it has no fuel. Beyond that, the crews deployed are not fighting the fire itself, they haven't been for days. The 'structural ' firefighters are fighting building blazes. The 'wildfire'

crews are working the fringes of the town, trying to keep the wildfire from entering. The main fire itself is just burning, because there is dick they can do about it.

ETA: you could bring every water bomber in Canada to bear on this fire and it would make little difference.

Edited May 5, 2016 by overthere

Big Guy · May 6, 2016

I can accept that you are ignorant of the reality of large fires.

....

I fully agree. But I do have a background in municipal disaster preparation. I suggest that the mere fact of the results indicates that the preparations were inadequate.

May I assume that since everything possible was done properly that we can anticipate a repeat of this tragedy?

May 6, 2016

What are they going to do anyway? The air force, so far as I'm aware, has no water bombers, and the army has no fire engines.

Why bother after two days then? I assume they just do what the military does in emergencies. Help.

Derek 2.0 · May 6, 2016

oh ya, baby! Right-wingers are frothing/fuming over that... "slashing". When you actually take the time to look at the facts the NDP government cut the 'wildfire budget' by a whopping... $15 million dollars! A cut that has little/nothing to do with where historical past years funding has come from - from the Alberta government's emergency budget: in 2015, $375 million was spent fighting wildfires... funding that was not budget related; rather, came directly from emergency funds.

.

How many fire fighters and aerial tanker contracts could $15 million have secured weeks earlier?

Derek 2.0 · May 6, 2016

You remind me of the people saying Fort McMurray deserves this because they produce oil. There is no indication that this happened as a result of anything but a terrible combination of weather factors, but you both are quick to get online to exploit this for political purposes.

I never suggested the Alberta NDP caused the fire........the piss poor response will be something they wear though.

Smallc · May 6, 2016

Funding cuts?

I had a feeling...

We're literally a month into the new budget year....a year in which the operations budget wasn't touched.

Have a nice day.

Derek 2.0 · May 6, 2016

What are they going to do anyway? The air force, so far as I'm aware, has no water bombers, and the army has no fire engines.

The RCAF has helicopters to transport fire fighters around the area, in addition to supplies, likewise the RCAF has transports to bring relief supplies in and stranded O&G workers out............the Army has plenty of strong backs that can swing an axe, pull a fire rake or utilize a goon-spoon.....to say nothing of traffic control, aide to stranded motorists, setting up temporary shelters etc etc etc......

Smallc · May 6, 2016

I never suggested the Alberta NDP caused the fire........the piss poor response will be something they wear though.

Uhh, what exactly would you have done differently? There are currently over 100 air assets fighting the fire. It's just impossible to stop with current conditions.

msj · May 6, 2016

I had a feeling...We're literally a month into the new budget year....a year in which the operations budget wasn't touched.

But but but... there is one thing the NDP is good at and it is slashing spending!

Derek 2.0 · May 6, 2016

Uhh, what exactly would you have done differently? There are currently over 100 air assets fighting the fire. It's just impossible to stop with current conditions.

Not cutting the forest fire fighting budget earlier this year would have been a good start.......

Smallc · May 6, 2016

But but but... there is one thing the NDP is good at and it is slashing spending!

Actually, in that case, I was defending the thrifty Trudeau Liberals.

Smallc · May 6, 2016

Not cutting the forest fire fighting budget earlier this year would have been a good start.......

So you feel that a relatively small amount of money (spread over a whole province) would have prevented this disaster that is, by all accounts, something that couldn't be prevented?

Derek 2.0 · May 6, 2016

So you feel that a relatively small amount of money (spread over a whole province) would have prevented this disaster that is, by all accounts, something that couldn't be prevented?

Nope......but the $15 million removed from the budget would have hired a whole bunch more (6 month term) wildefire fighters earlier this year, personal able to contend with not only the Fort Mac fire, but the others throughout Alberta.....clearly enabling a far larger initial response from the Province, at the very least a response when those on scene were asking for additional help over the weekend and not days late when the city started burning and the fire was licking cars full of people escaping on the highway........

........And then there is the Federal Government's response (or lack there of)........either the Notely Government was neglectful in asking the Feds for help earlier or the Federal Government crapped the bed in its response.......then there is a chance that both levels are at fault.

Either way, cabinet ministers should be resigning over the piss poor response to the burning down of a Canadian city.............if this is how the Federal Government responds to a forest fire, we on the West Coast are truly screwed when the "Big One" wipes out South-Western British Columbia......

Hal 9000 · May 6, 2016

I never suggested the Alberta NDP caused the fire........the piss poor response will be something they wear though.

There is zero chance that she takes any accountability at all for her response, either in her actions or her words

waldo · May 6, 2016

How many fire fighters and aerial tanker contracts could $15 million have secured weeks earlier?

nice try! That $15 million cut is split across tanker contracts ($5.1 million) and base management... which doesn't include costs for firefighters/equipment (those are funded through general revenue). As I'm aware the same 2 companies that have always provided tanker contracts are still operating to the same level they always have in the past... the related $5.1 million cut means their contacts only run to August after which an 'as needed' requirement will guide the hiring of planes.

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GostHacked · May 6, 2016

What are they going to do anyway? The air force, so far as I'm aware, has no water bombers, and the army has no fire engines.

They can help with evacuations, creating fire lines, helping the fire crews.

cybercoma · May 6, 2016

So you feel that a relatively small amount of money (spread over a whole province) would have prevented this disaster that is, by all accounts, something that couldn't be prevented?

Not to mention hindsight being used here. AB collapsed. Cuts had to be made. A natural disaster occurs and Derek wants to go back in time with current knowledge and judge past decisions.

cybercoma · May 6, 2016

nice try! That $15 million cut is split across tanker contracts ($5.1 million) and base management... which doesn't include costs for firefighters/equipment (those are funded through general revenue). As I'm aware the same 2 companies that have always provided tanker contracts are still operating to the same level they always have in the past... the related $5.1 million cut means their contacts only run to August after which an 'as needed' requirement will guide the hiring of planes.

.

Whoops!

msj · May 6, 2016

Finally! Now that Emily and Aaron have perished in a car crash fleeing the fires the "Thanks Notley" crowd can finally add something truly tragic to their hit list.

Sad that these two perished while driving on a highway and colliding with a tractor trailer.

Still, ~88,000 others have been evacuated safely so, you know, the former is a tragedy while the latter is a statistic and all that.

Big Guy · May 6, 2016

Apparently there are some people who have decided to ride it out in Fort McMurray. I am not sure that it is the brightest thing to do. But do authorities have the right to force people out of their houses?

My recollection is that during floods, hurricanes et al, people were warned to leave but never forced to do so?

Can a person be arrested for not leaving?

jacee · May 6, 2016

Finally! Now that Emily and Aaron have perished in a car crash fleeing the fires the "Thanks Notley" crowd can finally add something truly tragic to their hit list.

Sad that these two perished while driving on a highway and colliding with a tractor trailer.

Still, ~88,000 others have been evacuated safely so, you know, the former is a tragedy while the latter is a statistic and all that.

I have found your comments during this tragedy to be the most offensive.

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?Impact · May 6, 2016

But do authorities have the right to force people out of their houses?

Legally, yes. According to section 17 of Alberta's Emergency Management Act:

Any person who

(a) contravenes this Act or the regulations, or

(b-)* interferes with or obstructs any person in the carrying out of a power or duty under this Act or the regulations,

is guilty of an offence and liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than one year or to a fine of not more than $10 000 or to both imprisonment and fine.

ref: http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/E06P8.pdf#page=12

* How can I disable the emoji that automatically displays when I leave out the "-"

Edited May 6, 2016 by ?Impact