A Trust That is Now Broken

[Derek 2.0]

Australia did. They suffered a lot fewer casualties than we did by taking door number two and going into Afghanistan.

The ADF served in both Iraq and Afghanistan, losing over 40 personal and having over 200 wounded in the later.

[Derek 2.0]

I am not going to debate the pros and cons of the Chretien government. That is the role of pundits and time.

Do you think we should have joined the USA in the invasion and subjugation of Iraq?

Chretien's Foreign Affairs Minister, Lloyd Axworthy, feels the current Governments response lacks direction and is unclear, well feeling Canada can't be seen as sitting on the sidelines in the fight against radical Islam.

[On Guard for Thee]

Iraq was in breach of multiple UN resolutions.

Which is what made that war illegal. The reference here was Afghanistan, which was not in breach.

[Shady]

Which is what made that war illegal. The reference here was Afghanistan, which was not in breach.

No, the war wasn't illegal in any way. That's an common urban legend.

[On Guard for Thee]

No, the war wasn't illegal in any way. That's an common urban legend.

Oh it's a long way from an urban legend, it just depends if you simply want to embrace only US law and ignore everything else. The British are still conducting the Chilcot Inquiry.

[Wilber]

Time will tell but if people decide not to trust us, no amount of spin will change it.

[overthere]

The British are currently helping their friends and allies at the meeting, unlike Canada.

[The_Squid]

The British are currently helping their friends and allies at the meeting, unlike Canada.

The British helped create that mess. They were on the front lines with the invasion of Iraq. I will take anything the British suggests with a lump of salt.

Canada should remove all military assets from that quagmire.

[ReeferMadness]

Once Canada had a reputation on the international scene as an honest broker, a country whose foreign policy promoted world peace not just domestic interests. Sort of the Mother Teresa of the international diplomatic scene. And like Mother Teresa, there were always detractors who argued, with some justification, that the actual actions didn't match the claims.

Then Harper came along and pandered to the bigots and the rambo-wannabes; the ones who see Hitler in every minor tyrant, who think that every problem needs to be "solved" by bombing someone (except of course those with a military capable of shooting back), who spend their spare time watching war-porn, who lust after America's military.

Personally, I'd like to go back to the days where Canada focused on diplomatic rather than military solutions, where we were seen as the honest broker. Even if it wasn't entirely deserved. The world needs another example of a country that leads by diplomatic rather than military means.

[ReeferMadness]

Iraq was in breach of multiple UN resolutions.

Isn't it nice how the same people that trash the UN suddenly use it as a fig leaf to excuse war crimes. As Chomsky put it

If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged.

It's called victors justice.

But do go on - tell us where and when the UN approved the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

[Shady]

Isn't it nice how the same people that trash the UN suddenly use it as a fig leaf to excuse war crimes. As Chomsky put it

It's called victors justice.

But do go on - tell us where and when the UN approved the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Chomsky is a crackpot. That's complete nonsense.

[ReeferMadness]

Here and more details on the crash summary.

Wow, Derek, I misjudged you - I never would have guessed you were so passionate about worker safety. Are you a member of the ILO?

Indeed, these are a sad case and may be an example of an employer failing to provide safe working conditions. But there are far, far more egregious examples out there and in fact nobody even knows how many workplace deaths each year. The WHO has estimated it at 335,000 but this is almost certainly on the low side. And many of these are children who are forced to work in dangerous conditions like artisanal mining.

And certainly, the vast majority of these deaths can be laid at the feet of heartless capitalists. If Canada were to stand up for labour safety around the world, it would definitely help our reputation.

[capricorn]

Personally, I'd like to go back to the days where Canada focused on diplomatic rather than military solutions, where we were seen as the honest broker.

Aren't you pining for a time when it was much easier to resort to diplomacy to resolve conflict between nations? The world has changed drastically since those days and the threats are very different since the cold war era. These times require different strategies.

[ReeferMadness]

Chomsky is a crackpot. That's complete nonsense.

Chomsky's a scholar. His books are meticulously researched and footnoted. I don't necessarily agree with all of his conclusions but writing him off a a crackpot just eliminates whatever credibility you thought you might have.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me when and how the UN approved the invasion and occupation of Iraq. If they didn't its a war crime.

[Derek 2.0]

Wow, Derek, I misjudged you - I never would have guessed you were so passionate about worker safety. Are you a member of the ILO?

No, but I knew one of the pilots that died in the crash and was at the time employed by Boeing, on the dynamic component upgrade of the USN/USMC CH-46 fleet (same helicopter as our CH-113), a program intended to improve aircraft safety and the extension of service life....something the Canadian Labs should have been given after their replacement was cancelled.

Simply put, Chretien campaigned on cancelling the replacement (EH-101) for our Sea King and Labrador (SAR) helicopters, both helicopters then past their best before dates. One of his first acts in Government was to do exactly that, then several years later, the Lab crashed due to a fire caused by a leaking fuel line, killing all on board.......Chretien's Government was embarrassed into replacing the SAR fleet, and purchased the same helicopter they cancelled years previous at a greater cost.

Hence, Shady's claim is true (and cited now).

[Shady]

Chomsky's a scholar. His books are meticulously researched and footnoted. I don't necessarily agree with all of his conclusions but writing him off a a crackpot just eliminates whatever credibility you thought you might have.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me when and how the UN approved the invasion and occupation of Iraq. If they didn't its a war crime.

No it's not a war crime if the UN doesn't approve something. The UN is filled with some of the worst dictators and despots the world has ever seen.

[ReeferMadness]

Aren't you pining for a time when it was much easier to resort to diplomacy to resolve conflict between nations? The world has changed drastically since those days and the threats are very different since the cold war era. These times require different strategies.

The end of the cold war was the opportunity of a century to change the world. It was undermined by warmongers who glorify war and make their living from production and use of deadly war toys (and it was they who suddenly discovered that "terrorism" could take over as the boogeyman now that communism was gone). It was sabotaged by the elite in wealthy western nations who sought to extend and preserve hegemony over the world. And it was squandered by capitalists who used the discrediting of socialism and the rise of globalization to run up mind boggling fortunes. As long as the former Soviet bloc didn't revert to communism, western leaders and media were mostly too polite to point out that leaders of the former (so-called) socialist nations were suddenly wealthy capitalists and the new states were often nearly as totalitarian as the old ones.

Times are inherently no different than they ever were. There are rabidly paranoid people who distrust everyone around them and so it's no wonder they are mostly the same people who want trillions to be spent on the military and who think they need to walk around with a gun to protect themselves. Then there are others who recognize that nobody is ever going to be 100% safe but the fewer weapons there are in the world, the safer we all are. And nobody wins a war except for the people who stay out of it and prosper from it.

So everyone has a choice. You can be part of the problem or part of the solution.

[ReeferMadness]

No, but I knew one of the pilots that died in the crash and was at the time employed by Boeing, on the dynamic component upgrade of the USN/USMC CH-46 fleet (same helicopter as our CH-113), a program intended to improve aircraft safety and the extension of service life....something the Canadian Labs should have been given after their replacement was cancelled.

So, what you're telling me is that this is important because you knew one of the pilots and the hundreds of thousands of other people who die on the job don't matter? The kids who die digging cobalt in African artisanal mining operations, the Chinese workers who would love to commit suicide but are prevented by nets put up on factories, the Indian kids who are poisoned picking heavy metal recyclables out of landfills, all of whom are dying to provide us with cheap cellphones - they are all less important that the one pilot who died in the crash because you knew him. Is that what you're saying? Because, while it would have cost big bucks (millions?) to upgrade those choppers, it might only cost an extra few bucks on a cellphone to save thousands of lives. Maybe Apple could accept a 390% profit margin instead of 400%.

[ReeferMadness]

No it's not a war crime if the UN doesn't approve something. The UN is filled with some of the worst dictators and despots the world has ever seen.

Now here you are trying to suck and blow at the same time.

You just said that the invasion was justified because Iraq didn't comply to UN resolutions. Now you're saying it's got nothing to do with the UN. You can't have it both ways.

Some people will do anything to justify war. It's not just dictators and despots that have despicable ideas.

[Derek 2.0]

So, what you're telling me is that this is important because you knew one of the pilots and the hundreds of thousands of other people who die on the job don't matter?

I feel the importance stems from political grandstanding made by the Liberals during an election campaign, verses a choice grounded in good public policy........as is happening now with this Government's confused approach to combating radical Islam.

-------------

And Yes, Trudeau should put a halt to workers deaths in Asia, but I've yet to see any proposed policies from this Government that will reverse this.

[bush_cheney2004]

Once Canada had a reputation on the international scene as an honest broker, a country whose foreign policy promoted world peace not just domestic interests. Sort of the Mother Teresa of the international diplomatic scene.

Nope...Mother Theresa did/would not support Indonesia's slaughter in East Timor, Gulf War I, Somalia Affair, Rwanadan genocide, Bosnian War, Kosovo War, Operation Apollo, invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, or kidnapping of Haiti's president. Meanwhile, back at home, Canadian politicians and labour lobbied for more foreign investment and jobs in the "military industrial complex". Canada's leadership was also very hot to get in on ME oil services contracts and mining in developing nations, even if ruled by dictators (e.g. Burma).

Mother Theresa did not own any American made strike fighters armed with American made "smart" munitions to drop on third world nations that needed regime change.

Canada's Liberal ruling party even invented a new term to justify Canada's foreign "peacekeepingkilling"...."Responsibility to Protect". What a crock, but the rubes back home ate it up.

That was Canada's reputation by word and deed, not worship of Noam Chomsky from across the border. Noam Chomsky never got any big fat military contracts from Canada.

Edited January 21, 2016 by bush_cheney2004

[Special Delivery]

To the OP... What is it exactly that you would do differently if you were running the show in Ottawa?

[Hudson Jones]

I believe your solution is to side with that supporter of international terrorism, the Islamic Republic of Iran rather than our traditional friend and ally, the United States.

Let's see a show of hands on that proposal...

Everyone but Israel is supporting the Iran nuclear deal and the sanctions that have been lifted.

Are you saying that Canada should follow Israel instead of the international community (Including the U.S.)?

[ReeferMadness]

I feel the importance stems from political grandstanding made by the Liberals during an election campaign, verses a choice grounded in good public policy........as is happening now with this Government's confused approach to combating radical Islam.

I sympathize with this government trying to avoid the rampant militaristic hypocrisy of the stance taken by our "allies" while still avoiding calling them out for the hypocrites they are. It doesn't help that the mainstream media and much of the population are either clueless when it comes to modern history or warmongers who see every international problem as just another bombing opportunity. So, yes, it would be less hypocritical and braver of them to simply pull out and go home. But how many of us really have the courage to match our convictions?

And Yes, Trudeau should put a halt to workers deaths in Asia, but I've yet to see any proposed policies from this Government that will reverse this.

Well, in fairness, this government has already begun to address a much broader range of issues than the last one did in its entire mandate. Harper wasted his entire majority term trying to scare people into re-electing him, using the twin bogeymen of terrorism and the failing economy while trying to manipulate the elections act in his favor. And I think the government would take this more seriously if the Canadian people and media did. But they're too busy checking under their beds for Muslim terrorists.

But this is progress for you - I don't recall you ever raising any concerns that didn't centre around giving the military more money or giving yourself more rights to be heavily armed.

[The_Squid]

Everyone but Israel is supporting the Iran nuclear deal and the sanctions that have been lifted.

Are you saying that Canada should follow Israel instead of the international community (Including the U.S.)?

I already asked DogonPorch to clarify how we were supporting Iran and not the USA, but there was no answer forthcoming.