German town bans male asylum seekers from public pools

[Big Guy]

You don't know the difference?

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I do not know what your criteria is for the difference. Please share it so we see if we are on the same planet.

[Big Guy]

This thread is drifting so I moved my response to the "Gregory Elliott's Twitter Harassment Trial" thread.

[jacee]

I do not know what your criteria is for the difference. Please share it so we see if we are on the same planet.

Looking at a woman/girl's face and smiling/greeting ... that's looking.

Staring at a woman/girl's body/private parts ... that's leering.

Leering is often accompanied by dopey sideways grin, drooling, giggling, etc.

Leering often involves avoiding eye contact or dopey grinning and continued staring when eye contact is made.

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[Guest]

Deemed inappropriate by whom?

I believe that the recent court decision set the precedent that because a person "feels" harassed does not mean they are being harassed. If a young lady is swimming in a pool and 3 black guys walk in can she ask them to leave because she "feels" afraid and uncomfortable with blacks? Or a black woman in a pool with three white guys?

Actually in Elliot's case, it is acceptable to harass under some conditions: "In Elliott’s case, the judge found Elliott was harassing the women by repeatedly tweeting them and that he knew they were harassed. He found, however, that Elliott’s actions failed to reach the level of criminal harassment, because it was not reasonable, on the facts of the case, for Guthrie and Reilly to fear for their safety, physical or psychological."

The only manual that is in play is that it is a public place giving equal access to all members of the public who are following the law.

Deemed inappropriate by the person with the authority to make the decision. In the case you mention, it's the judge. In a swimming pool, it's whoever is administering the pool. Would you suggest that someone charged with running a swimming pool for the benefit of the general public ignore action they they deem inappropriate?

Should they take into account the cultural aspect? Should they allow behaviour by certain groups based on their original location and culture/religion, at the expense of the locals?

It might be a good idea so as to prevent tension in the community?

[Big Guy]

Looking at a woman/girl's face and smiling/greeting ... that's looking.

Staring at a woman/girl's body/private parts ... that's leering.

Leering is often accompanied by dopey sideways grin, drooling, giggling, etc.

Leering often involves avoiding eye contact or dopey grinning and continued staring when eye contact is made.

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Interesting and I do not disagree - but it still depends on the interpretation of the individual. If a person feels they are being "leered at" then they are looking at the individual - are they not?

My point is that there has to be an objectively observable action of behavior. The objectively is the difficult part. To accept that the interpretation of how a person looks at another person is harassment then the simple solution would be for the harassed to ignore (not look at) the harasser - would it not? They both have the right to look at each other and each has the right to not look at the other.

I believe that the recent decision on the twitter harassment case makes the distinctions clearer - that is why I tried to move the discussion there.

A person winking at another person could be interpreted in many ways. If you are not sure of the action then you either ask the intent or you ignore - you do not accuse.

[Big Guy]

Deemed inappropriate by the person with the authority to make the decision. In the case you mention, it's the judge. In a swimming pool, it's whoever is administering the pool. Would you suggest that someone charged with running a swimming pool for the benefit of the general public ignore action they they deem inappropriate?

Should they take into account the cultural aspect? Should they allow behaviour by certain groups based on their original location and culture/religion, at the expense of the locals?

It might be a good idea so as to prevent tension in the community?

You make some very valid points. The person "in control" has to have been given guidelines as to "appropriate" behavior in public pools. If a young lady decides to take off her bikini top - which is quite legal in Ontario - he/she will respond appropriately? What if a number of other women there demand that she replace her top or be removed? What criteria is he/she to use?

What about a lady deciding to breast feed her child on the pool deck and others in the area tell the pool supervisor that she should be removed?

There is harassment and there is criminal harassment and they have different triggers. If any individual is doing anything that is NOT illegal or that is legal has the same rights as any other individual in a public place. You may personally feel that an action is distasteful then that is YOUR interpretation. The recent court decisions seem to indicate that actions which one individual interprets as instilling fear into another, and IS THE WARNED THAT THE ACTION IS CREATING FEAR IN THE OTHER, and continue the action then they have crossed the line.

Because you feel that an action by an individual is harassing you does not make it so.

That is my interpretation based on what I can find in references:

http://www.cbabc.org/For-the-Public/Dial-A-Law/Scripts/Criminal-Law/206

[WestCoastRunner]

I do not know what your criteria is for the difference. Please share it so we see if we are on the same planet.

You tend to go into analysis paralysis on many of your posts. It's common sense to understand the difference between leering and looking, especially from the woman's perspective which you have no experience being btw.

[Big Guy]

You may be absolutely correct and there are others who would agree with you but the point I continue to try to make is that we cannot make laws based on one individuals interpretations of the behavior of another individual. One person may accept a comment on his/her apparel as a compliment and another may read it as harassment.

I also suggest that what you consider to be leering and what another woman would consider lookng is not in the physical actions of the looker/leerer behavior but the mindset of the recipient of the look/leer.

As to my experience, I am not a woman but I am married to the one of the most intelligent persons who I have had the pleasure to meet. She has been involved in many issues dealing with women and is not reluctant to share her views, experiences and suggestions.

I reject any explanation of a point of view on any issue as "common sense". If it was common sense than it would not be an issue.

[kimmy]

This weekend I bumped into a couple of young men in suits and ties who wanted to "witness" me on the many virtues of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Here's how that went:

Phase 1: The polite brush-off.

Them: "Good afternoon! Could we speak with you for a minute about the--"

Me: "Sorry, I don't have time to talk..." (kept walking)

In probably 80% of interactions, this is all that's required. These guys were pretty determined, so they escalated things to Phase 2.

Phase 2: The direct refusal.

Them (walking after me): "This will just take a minute! This could change your life!"

Me: (I turned around, and raised my left hand in the familiar "stop right there" gesture) "I'm really not interested."

They nodded, and set off in search of somebody else to save. Most people who ignore the Polite Brush Off will get the message by this point. Only rarely do things get to...

Phase 3: Aggressive refusal.

If somebody refuses to respect a direct refusal, things have, IMO, become harassment. At this point you're basically trying to warn or threaten somebody to leave you alone. "I am going to tell the bouncer." "If you don't leave me alone my boyfriend will beat your ass." "I'll call the cops." The person you're dealing with is probably pretty stupid.

And IMO some attempts at interaction are so crass or insulting that they go straight to phase 3 and are inherently harassment. If you go up to someone and grope them, you're not entitled to a courteous response.

-k

[jacee]

You may be absolutely correct and there are others who would agree with you but the point I continue to try to make is that we cannot make laws based on one individuals interpretations of the behavior of another individual. One person may accept a comment on his/her apparel as a compliment and another may read it as harassment.

I also suggest that what you consider to be leering and what another woman would consider lookng is not in the physical actions of the looker/leerer behavior but the mindset of the recipient of the look/leer.

Big Guy, in this thread you have focused solely on playing semantics about harassment.

However, the issue in this thread is not whether some young men offended. They did.

The issue is that for their personal offenses, a collective punishment is being applied to others of their group.

That's appalling.

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[Shady]

Anyone defending or trying to lessen the significance of the behaviour isn't on the side of women or women's issues,

[Hal 9000]

You tend to go into analysis paralysis on many of your posts. It's common sense to understand the difference between leering and looking, especially from the woman's perspective which you have no experience being btw.

The women's perspective is this; The guy looks like a 7+, he's looking....If the guy looks like a 6 or under, he's leering.

[On Guard for Thee]

The women's perspective is this; The guy looks like a 7+, he's looking....If the guy looks like a 6 or under, he's leering.

Could you get more shallow?

[Hal 9000]

Could you get more shallow?

Look, I'm the youngest sibling with many older sisters (with friends). One thing I can say without a question of doubt is this; If 2 guys are at a pool by themselves for whatever reason, and one looks like George Clooney and the other looks like Nick Nolte's mugshot, you can easily guess which one is accused of "leering".

[On Guard for Thee]

Look, I'm the youngest sibling with many older sisters (with friends). One thing I can say without a question of doubt is this; If 2 guys are at a pool by themselves for whatever reason, and one looks like George Clooney and the other looks like Nick Nolte's mugshot, you can easily guess which one is accused of "leering".

Maybe in your world.

[Hal 9000]

Maybe in your world.

You don't think women judge guys on their looks? While an adorable sentiment, it's totally wrong.

[On Guard for Thee]

You don't think women judge guys on their looks? While an adorable sentiment, it's totally wrong.

Looks make an impact for sure. It's only shallow people, usually young, who have no better yardstick.

[Hal 9000]

Looks make an impact for sure. It's only shallow people, usually young, who have no better yardstick.

Sorry, it's human nature and women aren't exempt.

If a chick looks like Kaley Cuoco, she'll get out of a ticket before someone woman who looks like Rosie O'Donnell, And an attractive guy will get better treatment from a female than an ugly (or average) guy will. Sorry, I don't make the rules, I just recognize them.

[On Guard for Thee]

Sorry, it's human nature and women aren't exempt.

If a chick looks like Kaley Cuoco, she'll get out of a ticket before someone woman who looks like Rosie O'Donnell, And an attractive guy will get better treatment from a female than an ugly (or average) guy will. Sorry, I don't make the rules, I just recognize them.

Yeah, you make up ones that seem to appeal to you. I find them completely shallow nonsense. I have no idea how old you are, but I can guess not very.

[Bonam]

Looks make an impact for sure. It's only shallow people, usually young, who have no better yardstick.

Someone lives in fantasy land lol. Physical attractiveness is the greatest determinant of all kinds of social privilege, both for males and females.

[On Guard for Thee]

Someone lives in fantasy land lol. Physical attractiveness is the greatest determinant of all kinds of social privilege, both for males and females.

I prefer to deal with whats on their minds than the shape of their body. But you carry on. One day hopefully thoughts will become more important to you than looks. Or not.

[Argus]

Maybe in your world.

Many of the women I've talked with have admitted as much. If the guy checking you out is some fat, old ugly dude then ICK!, if he's a hotty then, purr.

[Argus]

I prefer to deal with whats on their minds than the shape of their body. But you carry on. One day hopefully thoughts will become more important to you than looks. Or not.

And perhaps one day reality will become more important to you than delusional fantasies. I remember all the trips I used to take to Home Depot when i bought my last house, and how hard it was to find a guy to ask questions. Then I went once with my friend Tanya. Holy God, those HD guys were falling off the shelves to help us! "Can I get you anything!? Need any help!? Something I can do for you folks!?"

[On Guard for Thee]

And perhaps one day reality will become more important to you than delusional fantasies. I remember all the trips I used to take to Home Depot when i bought my last house, and how hard it was to find a guy to ask questions. Then I went once with my friend Tanya. Holy God, those HD guys were falling off the shelves to help us! "Can I get you anything!? Need any help!? Something I can do for you folks!?"

Sounds a bit like a delusional fantasy took hold.

[Charles Anthony]

Guys,

Please stay on topic and keep your personal problems to yourselves.