B.C. condo language dispute sparks human rights complaint (merged with

[Argus]

You do realize why people respond with bwahaha's to this sort of nonsense don't you? It's like something I'd expect from Ezra Levant when he's pissed to the gills.

You do realize that no cliche I could use, however wild, even begins to match your own oft-stated opinions, right?

[WestCoastRunner]

You do realize that no cliche I could use, however wild, even begins to match your own oft-stated opinions, right?

Are you saying you have no oft stated opinions?

[Argus]

Are you saying you have no oft stated opinions?

No, I'm saying that his laughing at my description of how progressives think might be less ironic if he didn't think exactly like that, and say so every day.

[Machjo]

This country has official languages. People are informed of that when seeking to immigrate, and that a degree of proficiency is necessary before attaining citizenship. Any immigrant who finds this oppressive is free to turn in their passport and go home, and I urge them to do so.

You only need to read the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to see that official bilingualism applies to Federal and New Brunswick Government institutions and the public school system. It does not apply to private businesses.

Never mind immigrants. It would be nice if the Canadian-born read their Constitution, or at least the Charter.

Secondly, not all Canadian Chinese are immigrants. Granted those born and raised in Canada will know an official language, but will still reserve the freedom to use the language of their choice in the private sector.

[Machjo]

I have worked with many immigrants in the IT industry with limited English skills and yet they attain citizenship. Hmmmm.

And this would include a young mother working to bring her young son from India. She succeeded, here in BC. Limited English skills but a top notch computer programmer.

Educated, law-abiding, pays her taxes.

What more do we want?

Edited December 29, 2015 by Machjo

[Machjo]

Again, I would suggest that any Chinese who do not wish to become Canadian is free to go home any time they want. I'd even support the government paying their way as long as they surrendered their passports.

I seem to remember a post of mine mentioning just this, that many use the word 'Canadian' as a synonym or code word for 'English-Canadian,' 'French-Canadian,' or 'Anglo-French Canadian.'

Your quote here is a perfect example of that since it does not make sense unless we understand the word 'Canadian' in that way.

According to a pure understanding of the word, a Chinese Canadian is just as Canadian as an English-Canadian, but using it as a code word, suddenly anything but English-Canadian isn't Canadian.

I've been increasingly Chinese-Canadian for years now, but don't feel any less Canadian for speaking Chinese. If anything, my multilingual ism should make me more Canadian for my ability to ore easily make friends with Canadians you couldn't even communicate with: your own compatriots.

[Machjo]

You make a lot of broad assumptions. In fact, I'm an air force brat who moved around a lot in my youth. I always marvel at people I know who grew up in one place, who still know people they went to kindergarten with, who know their whole neighborhood. I feel I was deprived of that kind of stability and comfort myself. Unlike you, I don't feel that I should deprive others of it for no good reason. I don't feel it's right to flood their towns or cities with foreigners just to tickle my sense of how open-minded and noble I am about other ethnicities and races.

I don't want to deprive anyone of anything, but to legislate laws excessively restricting the freedom of out-of-towners when the Constitution clearly guarantees free of movement is problematic.

Yes they have the right to communicate with the Government in their language, but will just have to adapt to a changing free market like the rest of us.

[eyeball]

No, I'm saying that his laughing at my description of how progressives think might be less ironic if he didn't think exactly like that, and say so every day.

Cite.

Word for word too...as in exactly.

Edited December 29, 2015 by eyeball

[WestCanMan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he probably did sign a document typed in English that did not state anything about the corporation's linguistic policy, and so he should have a right to be served in English.

I think the disagreement is on WHY he should be served in English. If I understood TimG correctly, his argument is that the corporation should serve him in English just because English is the de facto language of Government in BC and that he should have a fundamental right to understand the corporation's correspondence with him in whatever language he chooses, that that alone is reason enough to guarantee him service in English.

My argument is that the only reason he should be served in English is because the agreement he signed could have given him a reasonable reason to believe (by virtue of the language in which it was presented to him with no explanation of the corporation's linguistic policy) that the corporation would serve him in English. In other words, my argument is that the corporation should serve him in English not because of whatever language the Government uses in its internal operations or because he has a fundamental right to an interpreter in the language of his choice, but only because the contract gave a reasonable impression that the corporation would serve him in English. So the disagreement here is not on whether he should be served in English, but on WHY he should be served in English.

It's not just a matter of getting the strata docs though. If people who are not council members are allowed to attend the meetings and participate then he should have that right as well.

[Machjo]

It's not just a matter of getting the strata docs though. If people who are not council members are allowed to attend the meetings and participate then he should have that right as well.

My meaning was that if he signed the purchase agreement in English and the agreement made no mention of any linguistic policy, then he could reasonably assume that the corporation will accommodate him in written or spoken English in all activities he can attend.

But again, not because if what the Government's official language is, but only because he'd signed the purchase agreement in English with the agreement saying nothing about any other linguistic policy, thus giving him a legitimate reason to assume that the corporation would offer English for all if its activities.

That said, the corporation should be free to offer the contract in the language of its choice, just that it must understand that it can't try to mislead people by offering an agreement to be signed in English with no other mention of linguistic policy written in the contract and then not offer service in English.

If it dI'd bot intend to offer English service, it should either not have offered agreements typed in English to sign or at least inscribe a clear linguistic policy into the contract so as to avoid any misunderstanding.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Machjo

[H10]

Do you think only money matters? Would you sell your passport for a reasonable profit? Maybe they felt a kinship for their home, after living their all their lives. Government policies should never be designed to destroy a community or replace it with an entirely new community without the consent of those who were living there.

And what if they can't move on? What happens then? They remain, festering with anger and resentment towards the newcomers.

Your reality is not the same as others. Some were born and grew and aged in the same place, never moving from the town or city they grew up in. There's an awful lot of emotional attachment in those cases.

So are you saying the English have failed to integrate into Canadian society?

Why shouldn't government policy be designed to destroy communities, this is what our nation was founded on, the Indians didn't leave hundreds of millions of acres of land voluntarily.

[H10]

And using Richmond as an example, who thinks it wise to continue importing millions of people to make us minorities in our own land?

I don't know, lets ask some native Indians how they feel about all us euro-migrants crowding up their country and destroying the environment.

[H10]

No, the federal parties are in lockstep on this issue, even though their opinion diverges from that of Canadians as a whole. This has often been the case, where the political and media elites manufacture a sort of universal opinion and then portray anyone who disagrees as some sort of extremist. It was what led to the rise of the Reform Party, when the putative 'conservative' party had no conservative policies or beliefs, and supported the other parties 100% on abortion, the death penalty, bilingualism, multiculturalism and immigration, among other topics.

Maybe this country does need some kind of proportional rep so that new parties can emerge which honestly represent the opinions and beliefs of Canadians as a whole. Certainly the mainstream parties are not doing so on many issues.

I actually agree with this comment largely. I have seen the polls where 47% of Canadians oppose non-white immigration, then I find it weird how trudeau wins a landslide election on the platform to import 50,000 non-white immigrants. Maybe Canadian voters are hypocrits themselves!

I understand the business elite need a source of urban poor to work in their factories. In fact, I know many rich whites who own businesses and lost their tfw under Harper, so sponsored dozens of refugees just to get 24 workers to cook and clean in their hotels out east.

[Argus]

You only need to read the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to see that official bilingualism applies to Federal and New Brunswick Government institutions and the public school system. It does not apply to private businesses.

Never mind immigrants. It would be nice if the Canadian-born read their Constitution, or at least the Charter.

Secondly, not all Canadian Chinese are immigrants. Granted those born and raised in Canada will know an official language, but will still reserve the freedom to use the language of their choice in the private sector.

How about this then, if you don't want to speak English then get out. And I'd be more than willing to force the issue on any number of Chinese who were or were not born here. Either you want to be part of Canada or you're a Chinese colonist, and we should remove such people and send them back to their 'homeland'.

[Argus]

I don't know, lets ask some native Indians how they feel about all us euro-migrants crowding up their country and destroying the environment.

I've seen this sort of response before and it never ceases to amaze me how little thought is put into it.

Yes, let's ask the Indians. "Say, Indian guy, was it a good idea to just let all those foreigners come and stay here?"

What do you think he'd say? Hell no!

So if it was a bad idea then why isn't it a bad idea now?

[Argus]

If anything, my multilingual ism should make me more Canadian for my ability to ore easily make friends with Canadians you couldn't even communicate with: your own compatriots.

I don't consider them to BE my compatriots. I consider them to be foreigners the government unwisely allowed to settle here.

[H10]

I've seen this sort of response before and it never ceases to amaze me how little thought is put into it.

Yes, let's ask the Indians. "Say, Indian guy, was it a good idea to just let all those foreigners come and stay here?"

What do you think he'd say? Hell no!

So if it was a bad idea then why isn't it a bad idea now?

Yes and we ignored the indian and came anyways, and now the indians from india along with the chinaman is going to do it to us. You reap what you sow. We are to blame.

[eyeball]

Yes, let's ask the Indians. "Say, Indian guy, was it a good idea to just let all those foreigners come and stay here?"

What do you think he'd say? Hell no!

I have to say I'm a little surprised the requirement to consult native governments hasn't been an issue, Ottawa is after all consulting with provincial and municipal governments.

[Argus]

Yes and we ignored the indian and came anyways, and now the indians from india along with the chinaman is going to do it to us. You reap what you sow. We are to blame.

The difference is the Indians let them, and we don't have to.

[Machjo]

How about this then, if you don't want to speak English then get out. And I'd be more than willing to force the issue on any number of Chinese who were or were not born here. Either you want to be part of Canada or you're a Chinese colonist, and we should remove such people and send them back to their 'homeland'.

I trace my origins right back to New France. In my mind, the immigrant who 'just got off the boat' is my equal, or at least that is what my religion teaches me.

However, if you want to play the seniority card, then that probably makes you more of an immigrant than I am, so who the hell are you to come to Canada to tell me to get out.

With an attitude like that, maybe it's time you went back to Britain and leave us earlier arrivals alone.

As for how immigration impacts indigenous people's. Strangely enough, non-English and non-French immigration probably benefits indigenous peoples in that part of the problem is that English and French Canadians are presently colluding to maintain their majority for the purpose of forcefully assimilating indigenous Canadians.

Once we form a minority, then our language laws will rapidly liberalize as everyone else including indigenous Canadians will want to limit the power of the English and the French to force themselves on them.

[Machjo]

I've seen this sort of response before and it never ceases to amaze me how little thought is put into it.

Yes, let's ask the Indians. "Say, Indian guy, was it a good idea to just let all those foreigners come and stay here?"

What do you think he'd say? Hell no!

So if it was a bad idea then why isn't it a bad idea now?

I have Ojibwa friends and we have discussed similar subjects. Surprisingly, they don't regret having helped the first European migrants to Canada because that is what their religions taught them to do.

You only need to read the story of the Great Peacemaker and Hiawatha to see that.

In my conversations with them, I found that their greatest disappointment was that our ancestors did not live up to the teachings of their own Christian Faith!

Of course I can't speak for indigenous Canadians and can only relay what some Ojibwe friends of mine have told me, but it would seem to me that we can either continue to disappoint by hypocriticaly not living up to our professed beliefs, or we can show them that we do now live up to our beliefs.

The choice is ours to make.

If our professed religions mean anything, then let's live up to their standards.

[Machjo]

The difference is the Indians let them, and we don't have to.

The Indians not only let them but even helped them! You only need to read the Great Law of Peace to understand why they did that. That is how their religions taught them to behave and they had faith in our decency too.

What does your religion teach you?

Edited December 30, 2015 by Machjo

[Argus]

I trace my origins right back to New France. In my mind, the immigrant who 'just got off the boat' is my equal, or at least that is what my religion teaches me.

No one cares what your religion teaches you. I am informed by reality, not sky fairies.

However, if you want to play the seniority card, then that probably makes you more of an immigrant than I am, so who the hell are you to come to Canada to tell me to get out.

I am not speaking about 'seniority' but the advisability and wisdom of maintaining social cohesion. The more linguistic groups in a country the less social cohesian there is and the harder and more expensive it is to maintain services. I get you enjoy speaking Mandarin. I don't get how you think destroying the fabric of Canada is going to be good for anyone aside from you. Countries with multiple linguistic groups are prone to instability. Belgium is an absolute mess because of its multiple linguistic groups. Canada almost broke apart because of two different linguistic groups. Now you want to create more just so you can walk around congratulating yourself on knowing multiple languages? No thank you. I'm sure you'll enjoy living in Hong Kong.

Once we form a minority, then our language laws will rapidly liberalize as everyone else including indigenous Canadians will want to limit the power of the English and the French to force themselves on them.

One way to make sure that doesn't happen is to redirect the flow of immigrants away from China, which is what we ought to do, and make no allowances for Chinese in Canada to avoid their integration into the Canadian mainstream. They must be required to know English to vote or interact with government in any way, shape or form.

[Argus]

The Indians bot only let them but even helped them! You only need to read the Great Law of Peace to understand why they did that. That is how their religions taught them to behave and they had faith in our decency too.

What does your religion teach you?

Not to commit social and cultural suicide.

And I have no doubt whatsoever that if the natives had had any clue about what would happen they'd have butchered every European who set foot in North America the instant they saw them.

[eyeball]

You really like rubbing Europe in people's noses don't you?

That'll help.