Argus Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 I'm not sure either. Here are a few facts. Taxi drivers make pretty good money and were it not for immigrants, we would be in short supply of drivers and security guards You may live in a community with white taxi drivers and white security guards but I do not. Were it not for them, we'd be driving home drunk in our vehicles. I've had a fair acquaintance with taxi drivers and security guards. The former make okay money only by working horribly long hours no one else is willing to do. I'm talking 12hr shifts five or six days a week. Most of the money goes to costs, including renting the plate, unless they're in a position to buy one for several hundred thousand dollars. Security guards make very little and also have crappy jobs. These are necessary jobs. Why do you suppose they're so often filled by refugees or lower tier immigrants? Who did these jobs back in the fifties? Native born Canadians, of course. Why won't they do them any more? Because the continuing large influx of newcomers with few job skills enables the owners of taxi companies and security guard companies and others who employ low skill people to always find enough employees no matter how little they pay them and no matter how crappy the job is. This is basic supply and demand, basic capitalism. Take away all the desperate, low skill newcomers and the jobs will still get done, if they're necessary, but employers will have to pay more/treat employees better. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) You are lumping refugees- a small part of the total intake annually- with far more numerous regular immigrants, who are generally self sufficient and not permitted to access social services. No, I'm not. Many immigrants fail. That has always been the case going back two hundred years. One of the rarely told tails of Canadian immigration is how many people failed here and turned around and went back home in the old days. Nowadays when immigrants fail they rarely go back because of government social welfare services. You take an average Canadian with a degree of some sort. Is he or she guaranteed a decent living? How many barristas have degrees? Now you take someone from a foreign country who has a poor grasp of the language, no local connections in his area of specialty and a degree from some university nobody here has ever heard of. Aren't their chances much worse than that of a native born graduate? And there is no bar to immigrants accessing social services. Sponsored immigrants are supposed to be taken care of by their sponsor for a period of several years, but if the sponsor reneges then social services will do it. Edited January 5, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Machjo Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 I've had a fair acquaintance with taxi drivers and security guards. The former make okay money only by working horribly long hours no one else is willing to do. I'm talking 12hr shifts five or six days a week. Most of the money goes to costs, including renting the plate, unless they're in a position to buy one for several hundred thousand dollars. Security guards make very little and also have crappy jobs. These are necessary jobs. Why do you suppose they're so often filled by refugees or lower tier immigrants? Who did these jobs back in the fifties? Native born Canadians, of course. Why won't they do them any more? Because the continuing large influx of newcomers with few job skills enables the owners of taxi companies and security guard companies and others who employ low skill people to always find enough employees no matter how little they pay them and no matter how crappy the job is. This is basic supply and demand, basic capitalism. Take away all the desperate, low skill newcomers and the jobs will still get done, if they're necessary, but employers will have to pay more/treat employees better. Given that immigrants (be they tourists, entrepreneurs, permanent residents or any other kind of immigrant) also use taxi and security services, whom would these drivers and guards serve? If you cut all immigration, demand for drivers and guards would plumet. You seem to have a vision of Canada comparable to British India where everyone else just serves the white man when in fact many white men serve the non-white community too. Consider that much of North America's atta flour to bake Indian nan bread is produced in Canada. I would guess that many of the farmere growing the wheat to produce that flour are white, while many of those buying that flour are East Indian. Send all East Indians to India, and many white farmers would lose their jobs. I've seen many white taxi drivers and white security guards. If you kill all non-whites, you kill much of the white population's client base. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
Machjo Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 No, I'm not. Many immigrants fail. That has always been the case going back two hundred years. One of the rarely told tails of Canadian immigration is how many people failed here and turned around and went back home in the old days. Nowadays when immigrants fail they rarely go back because of government social welfare services.You take an average Canadian with a degree of some sort. Is he or she guaranteed a decent living? How many barristas have degrees? Now you take someone from a foreign country who has a poor grasp of the language, no local connections in his area of specialty and a degree from some university nobody here has ever heard of. Aren't their chances much worse than that of a native born graduate?And there is no bar to immigrants accessing social services. Sponsored immigrants are supposed to be taken care of by their sponsor for a period of several years, but if the sponsor reneges then social services will do it. On the other hand, some immigrants speak no English but have much entrepreneurial experience, still know multiple languages (but just not English) and know how to network within their linguistic community. Add to that that some of them might even end up marrying whites who speak their languages (an increasing occurrence due to free-trade, especially in entrepreneurial circles). Your experience is obviously limited to wage-earners who depend on employers. If that community is large enough, they might find themselves gainfully employed in no time flat. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
Argus Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 Given that immigrants (be they tourists, entrepreneurs, permanent residents or any other kind of immigrant) also use taxi and security services, whom would these drivers and guards serve? Everyone, same as now. I have no idea what point you're trying to get at. If you cut all immigration, demand for drivers and guards would plumet. Well, I haven't advocated cutting all immigration, but even if we did, there's no evidence to suggest demand for drivers or security guards would plummet. You seem to have a vision of Canada comparable to British India where everyone else just serves the white man when in fact many white men serve the non-white community too. I have no idea what you're talking about and I'm pretty sure you don't either. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Machjo Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 Everyone, same as now. I have no idea what point you're trying to get at.Well, I haven't advocated cutting all immigration, but even if we did, there's no evidence to suggest demand for drivers or security guards would plummet.I have no idea what you're talking about and I'm pretty sure you don't either. Are you saying that non-whites consume no goods or services in the Canadian economy, that workers and businesses depend on an exclusively white clientele? Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
Argus Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 Are you saying that non-whites consume no goods or services in the Canadian economy, that workers and businesses depend on an exclusively white clientele? I'm saying you have race on the brain. This conversation is not about race. It's about the wisdom of bringing in hundreds of thousands of newcomers every year without the requisite skill set to support themselves without lifelong government assistance. Anyone who is not paying income taxes is not paying for the services they get from the government, and is therefore a dependent. We do not improve our economy by importing more dependents. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Machjo Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 Simple solution: a common labour market. Some have proposed that for Canada, the UK, Australia, and New Zealand. I would extend it even beyond that. The advantage is that it gives them the right only to work in Canada. That way we can judge based on the person's tax contribution after the first five years whether to give him citizenship. I would extend it beyond just 'white' countries though. If Russell Williams could immigrate to Canada (though granted he was a model taxpaying English-speaker until he'd started killing people), then certainly just not knowing English well is a minor consideration. I'd prefer non-English-speaking entrepreneurs of moral character over English-speaking serial killers in the highest ranks of the military if you know what I mean. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
Michael Hardner Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 No. My argument has nothing to with nationalism. I am arguing that the language used to pass laws is the 'default' language and any legally relevant services need to be provided in that language. In the case of a Strata Council the meetings are legally relevant and any minutes must be in English. When the council holds open meetings where owners are allowed to attend then they must also provide translation services to English if they are not comfortable in English. Obviously none of that says that other languages cannot also be used should the owners decide there is a need. Seems to me TimG's post here was the last one on topic. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
overthere Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 I'm saying you have race on the brain. This conversation is not about race. It's about the wisdom of bringing in hundreds of thousands of newcomers every year without the requisite skill set to support themselves without lifelong government assistance. Anyone who is not paying income taxes is not paying for the services they get from the government, and is therefore a dependent. We do not improve our economy by importing more dependents. "It's about the wisdom of bringing in hundreds of thousands of newcomers every year without the requisite skill set to support themselves without lifelong government assistance." Huh? WTF are you talking about? Refugees now comprise <10% of the quarter miilion per eyar. Most of the rest are 'economic' migrants, meaning they are educated, speak an official language,experienced, young and capable fo looking after themselves because those are the criteria for entrance.. The rest are sponsored, which means that their sponsors take responsibility for supporting them. They initially have no access to services such as health care or welfare. The only people that get substantial help are actual refugees, and of those many are privately sponsored, so what we are talking about are govt sponsored refugees, who come nowhere remotely close to 'hundreds of thousands per year'. And of course the majority of that small group do not need 'assistance for life'. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
Argus Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 "It's about the wisdom of bringing in hundreds of thousands of newcomers every year without the requisite skill set to support themselves without lifelong government assistance." Huh? WTF are you talking about? Refugees now comprise <10% of the quarter miilion per eyar. Most of the rest are 'economic' migrants, meaning they are educated, speak an official language,experienced, young and capable fo looking after themselves because those are the criteria for entrance. No, that is not the criteria. In fact, the vast majority of immigrants are never tested for any education, skill or language abilities. A large chunk are family class, and of those who come in under the 'skills' program, most are the accompanying family of the single individual accepted. The rest are sponsored, which means that their sponsors take responsibility for supporting them. They take responsibility for 'supporting them' by paying for their food and shelter. But we, the taxpayers, have to pay for their health care and other services. Further, the sponsorship is only for a few years, and after that, it's on us again. Furthermore again, if the sponsor reneges the immigrant is never removed from Canada. Instead they simply go on welfare. So we have immigrants here, many of them, who will never earn nearly enough to pay for the government services they consume, even if they do find work. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Machjo Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 Even among the family class, many are self-supporting. Often all they are missing is the language skills, but they have the education, competence, and money to support themselves otherwise. In such cases they can obtain permanent-residency but not citizenship. This means that they pay taxes but don't get to vote, taxation without representation, some people's highest ideal. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
overthere Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 No, that is not the criteria. In fact, the vast majority of immigrants are never tested for any education, skill or language abilities. A large chunk are family class, and of those who come in under the 'skills' program, most are the accompanying family of the single individual accepted. They take responsibility for 'supporting them' by paying for their food and shelter. But we, the taxpayers, have to pay for their health care and other services. Further, the sponsorship is only for a few years, and after that, it's on us again. Furthermore again, if the sponsor reneges the immigrant is never removed from Canada. Instead they simply go on welfare. So we have immigrants here, many of them, who will never earn nearly enough to pay for the government services they consume, even if they do find work. Here are the facts and numbers:http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2014/index.asp You are wrong. hey take responsibility for 'supporting them' by paying for their food and shelter. But we, the taxpayers, have to pay for their health care and other services. Further, the sponsorship is only for a few years, and after that, it's on us again. Furthermore again, if the sponsor reneges the immigrant is never removed from Canada. Instead they simply go on welfare. So we have immigrants here, many of them, who will never earn nearly enough to pay for the government services they consume, even if they do find work. You are both projecting and hyperventilating at the same time. Calm down and do a little reading. t Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
WestCoastRunner Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 We should perhaps banish white Canadians who are working at minimum wage jobs as well. Maybe Siberia? Many of these immigrants are working 2 sometimes 3 jobs to provide for their families including children. These children when they graduate and become working citizens will contribute to the Canadian economy to allow us boomers to health care and pensions. You seem to apply short term thinking to much of your well thought out responses. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
WestCoastRunner Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 No, that is not the criteria. In fact, the vast majority of immigrants are never tested for any education, skill or language abilities. A large chunk are family class, and of those who come in under the 'skills' program, most are the accompanying family of the single individual accepted. They take responsibility for 'supporting them' by paying for their food and shelter. But we, the taxpayers, have to pay for their health care and other services. Further, the sponsorship is only for a few years, and after that, it's on us again. Furthermore again, if the sponsor reneges the immigrant is never removed from Canada. Instead they simply go on welfare. So we have immigrants here, many of them, who will never earn nearly enough to pay for the government services they consume, even if they do find work. You may find if you engage with immigrants that they work very hard to provide a better life for their children. This includes working 2 or 3 jobs. To them, it's all about sacrificing for their children. Perhaps you can look past their skill set and focus on their integrity. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
WestCoastRunner Posted January 5, 2016 Report Posted January 5, 2016 I've had a fair acquaintance with taxi drivers and security guards. The former make okay money only by working horribly long hours no one else is willing to do. I'm talking 12hr shifts five or six days a week. Most of the money goes to costs, including renting the plate, unless they're in a position to buy one for several hundred thousand dollars. . This sounds more like city regulators putting the squeeze on taxi drivers whether or not they are immigrants. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Argus Posted January 6, 2016 Report Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) Here are the facts and numbers:http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2014/index.asp Thanks. If they say anything to support your position, whatever that is this evening, I'm sure you'll find it and let us know. You are wrong. No, I'm not. You are both projecting and hyperventilating at the same time. Calm down and do a little reading. t Find some facts that contradict me. If you think that's possible. If you can recognize a fact when you see one. Edited January 6, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 6, 2016 Report Posted January 6, 2016 You may find if you engage with immigrants that they work very hard to provide a better life for their children. This includes working 2 or 3 jobs. To them, it's all about sacrificing for their children. Perhaps you can look past their skill set and focus on their integrity. I'm sure they do. I'm sure almost everyone else does too. That's beside the point. If we are to have a $20 billion a year program called immigration it should serve a purpose other than to make progressives feel happy. Most of the reasons people say we need immigration have to do with economics. Well, that being the case, we should be bringing over immigrants who can make enough money to actually contribute to the tax base as opposed to immigrants who can't. Why is this so controversial or confusing to people? Bringing over one middle eastern guy with his non-working wife and four kids who will work as a taxi driver is not going to contribute anything to the tax base. Bringing over a professional couple from Ireland or Spain who will both be working good jobs and paying taxes would make considerably more sense. But that's all really a side trip from the larger topic of this discussion, which is the issue of bringing over so large a group from one geographical area that they form sub-nations within Canada filled with people who do not need to learn our language or customs. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted January 6, 2016 Report Posted January 6, 2016 Good. Because, with that, I'm going to point out that ignoring the OP has been happening since my warning. Stay on topic moving forward, people. This isn't about immigration - start a new thread. Consider this a warning, thanks. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Argus Posted January 6, 2016 Report Posted January 6, 2016 Good. Because, with that, I'm going to point out that ignoring the OP has been happening since my warning. Stay on topic moving forward, people. This isn't about immigration - start a new thread. Consider this a warning, thanks. I disagree. This is not a discussion about a condominium in BC. Who cares about a single condo in BC? The stronger subtext is the problem of integrating vast numbers of immigrants from different countries, and what happens when they prefer not to integrate but instead form large ethnic ghettos where native born Canadians are made to feel unwelcome. If that isn't about immigration I don't know what is. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
SpankyMcFarland Posted January 9, 2016 Report Posted January 9, 2016 What pecentage of Chnese immigrants to Canada speak Mandarin as their first language? If this continues, we will all have to learn Mandarin or get left behind. And that will be quite the challenge. Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
Argus Posted January 9, 2016 Report Posted January 9, 2016 What has this thread been merged with? I don't even know what the topic is any more. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Machjo Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 What pecentage of Chnese immigrants to Canada speak Mandarin as their first language? If this continues, we will all have to learn Mandarin or get left behind. And that will be quite the challenge. Not if your contract protects you. If you sign a contract written in language X and the contract states nothing about the contractor's linguistic policy, then the contractor ought to have an obligation to serve you in the language in which the contract was signed. If this is not the law presently, then the law ought to be updated to reflect that. If I buy a condo and I sign a purchase agreement written in English and the agreement does not state the strata council's linguistic policy, then it is reasonable for me to assume that if I was allowed to sign the agreement in English, that unless a linguistic policy in the contract states otherwise, I am to be served in English. To be fair to all though, this should apply to any language and not English specifically since it shouldn't be about keeping English-speakers in blissful monolingual ignorance of the world, but rather about protected reasonably assumed Contractual obligations. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
Michael Hardner Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 What has this thread been merged with? I don't even know what the topic is any more. It hasn't. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Machjo Posted January 10, 2016 Report Posted January 10, 2016 The topic's in the title. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
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