B.C. condo language dispute sparks human rights complaint (merged with

[Machjo]

Quebec ought to be more than enough for anyone with even a passing familiarity with history or modern politics.

Reason enough to weaken the Anglo-French majority in Canada.

[Argus]

Reason enough to weaken the Anglo-French majority in Canada.

There are several language groups in Belgium. That has done nothing to contribute to its stability.

[Machjo]

We have progress because we trust that immigrants will live up to the implied social contract and learn English or French. If that changes then the reaction of people will change.

What implied social contract? British and French Canada negotiated its first Treaties with the indigenous peoples through interpreters, establishing the residential school system only after some of the Treaties had already been signed.

English Canada had first welcomed Germans and Ukrainians to settle in Canada and send their children to school in their own languages, introducing a prohibition on the practice only once they'd already established such schools after WWI.

Many if not all of the first coolies probably conversed with their foremen in Wawa as an international auxiliary language of the Cascadian region. Many Indigenous, English, and French traders of the Hudson's Bay Company likewise once conversed in Wawa throughout that same region. Many Indigenous peoples of the Pacific North West today are of mixed Indigenous and Chinese blood from the coolie period onward. Some people still conversed in Wawa as an international auxiliary language in parts of British Columbia and Washington State, including in urban centres like Kamloops and Seattle, well into the 1930's, and Wawa is still spoken today (albeit now in creolized form) in Grand Ronde reserve in Oregon, and some still speak it as a second language in Kamloops today.

Given that many German Canadians in Ontario and Ukrainian Canadians on the prairies might descend from ancestors who were first permitted to establish schools in their own languages, and that many Canadian-born Chinese of the Pacific North West might descend from ancestors whose foremen would have taught them and conversed with them in Wawa rather than English, presicely what implied social contract did they sign onto? The only implied social contract I see is to be prepared to to have the goalposts changed on them once they arrived.

Just to give an idea of how new our modern society is, some would be shocked to realize that less than 50% of France's population spoke French as a mother tongue up until the 1930's. Given that statistic, it should not surprise us that instruction grammars and dictionaries to teach settlers Wawa (usually referred to as Chinook Jargon in English at the time, and usually Wawa in the language itself, or otherwise lalang (from 'la langue') among its French speakers)) were published in the late 1800's.

Even as late as the 1960s, many Inuit parents had to communicate through translators to the administrators of the residential schools their children attended (residential schools having arrived later in the North).

Though English and French Canadians have long thought of Canada as being Anglo-French, others have not always seen it through the same eyes.

[Machjo]

There are several language groups in Belgium. That has done nothing to contribute to its stability.

Not enough to reach critical mass. Indonesia contains over 100 linguistic regions with the largest representing only 40% of Indonesia's population. While it might be possible for a state to juggle 2, 3, or maybe even 4 official languages, there is no way it could possibly juggle over 100. As a result of Indonesia's linguistic situation reaching critical mass, circumstance forced a common language onto it. Had Indonesia had only two major linguistic regions, it would likely have become divided today by two official languages like Canada is.

[Machjo]

As a result of its extreme diversity, Indonesia now has a common language and a shared literature. It may be that few speak the official language as a mother tongue, but a common language need not be a common mother tongue. A common second language is all Indonesia needs to promote its unity. Its diversity is what made its unity possible.

[WestCoastRunner]

We have progress because we trust that immigrants will live up to the implied social contract and learn English or French. If that changes then the reaction of people will change.

Have you checked the employment ads recently. Many are asking for languages spoken in Mandarin, certainly not French. You are mistaken if you think that English is the implied social contract in the lower mainland of bc.

[TimG]

Have you checked the employment ads recently. Many are asking for languages spoken in Mandarin, certainly not French. You are mistaken if you think that English is the implied social contract in the lower mainland of BC.

Ads in English media no? Which means they are looking for bilingual people. Not monolingual Mandarin speakers. Which is fine. The only place I would expect people to learn French is in Quebec. Outside of that English is the one mandatory language. As many others as possible is good as well. Edited January 1, 2016 by TimG

[WestCoastRunner]

Ads in English media no? Which means they are looking for bilingual people. Not monolingual Mandarin speakers. Which is fine. The only place I would expect people to learn French is in Quebec. Outside of their English is the one mandatory language. As many others as possible is good as well.

My point is (I am not probably expressing correctly) many employers prefer a stronger grasp of Mandarin and a less understanding of English.

[TimG]

My point is (I am not probably expressing correctly) many employers prefer a stronger grasp of Mandarin and a less understanding of English.

Because they can find lots of good English speakers. Mandarin/English speakers are rarer and more in demand.

Bilingualism is a job skill.

Edited January 1, 2016 by TimG

[WestCoastRunner]

Because they can find lots of good English speakers. Mandarin/English speakers are rarer and more in demand.

Bilingualism is a job skill.

You don't know that they can find good English speakers. That is your assumption.

That is my whole point.

Edited January 1, 2016 by WestCoastRunner

[TimG]

You don't know that they can find good English speakers. That is your assumption.

Its a much bigger assumption to say that they don't need English speakers. They do have a much larger pool to draw from and an ad asking for bilingualism does not imply they don't need English speakers.

That is my whole point.

I think you are missing the point. Edited January 1, 2016 by TimG

[Machjo]

Have you checked the employment ads recently. Many are asking for languages spoken in Mandarin, certainly not French. You are mistaken if you think that English is the implied social contract in the lower mainland of bc.

Some jobs are advertised only in Chinese papers, and in Chinese to boot.

If you can't find work from an English paper, you might want to grab a Chinese one to read its classifieds.

[Machjo]

Ads in English media no? Which means they are looking for bilingual people. Not monolingual Mandarin speakers. Which is fine. The only place I would expect people to learn French is in Quebec. Outside of that English is the one mandatory language. As many others as possible is good as well.

Some South-East Ontario towns are predominantly French-speaking and the English must learn French to find work there.

[Machjo]

I've also been to restaurants in Scarborough that were packed full of Chinese customers speaking Chinese as far as I could hear.

[Argus]

Have you checked the employment ads recently. Many are asking for languages spoken in Mandarin, certainly not French.

Which is evidence the social contract has broken down and that we are taking too many immigrants from the same region. In order to prevent any particular foreign group from reaching a mass (such as the Chinese have in lower BC) where they do not feel the need to integrate into the greater community, we should diversify our source countries. We have been taking too many Chinese these last years. We should stop, and bring in people from other places we have largely ignored for the last several decades - like Europe.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Argus

[Machjo]

Which is evidence the social contract has broken down and that we are taking too many immigrants from the same region. In order to prevent any particular foreign group from reaching a mass (such as the Chinese have in lower BC) where they do not feel the need to integrate into the greater community, we should diversify our source countries. We have been taking too many Chinese these last years. We should stop, and bring in people from other places we have largely ignored for the last several decades - like Europe.

Given that some of Panama's public schools and the biggest university in Nigeria now offer Mandarin as an alternative to English, and that English has likewise given way somewhat to German and other languages in the Hungarian school system, and to other languages in the Polish and Italian one too, if we stop taking in immigrants, then that will obly further reduce the value of English in the world and English and French Canadians themselves will increasingly need to learn other languages to trade with the world. Either that or we bring in immigrants to trade for us. Most who work in imports and exports and in the tourism industry know a language other than English or French. Unless we'really prepared to devastate our immigration industry and lose our share of world markets, our choice is between learning other languages or accepting more immigrants.

Considering the success of our public schools in second language teaching, it looks like it must be the latter option.

[Machjo]

And again, when have we ever had a clear implied social contract? Wawa was used as an international auxiliary language between some people in parts of BC right into the 1930's!

[Argus]

Given that some of Panama's public schools and the biggest university in Nigeria now offer Mandarin as an alternative to English, and that English has likewise given way somewhat to German and other languages in the Hungarian school system, and to other languages in the Polish and Italian one too, if we stop taking in immigrants, then that will obly further reduce the value of English in the world and English and French Canadians themselves will increasingly need to learn other languages to trade with the world.

English remains by far the most important international language, and that isn't going to change. If our ancestors had had sense we would have done our best to ensure that French disappeared too, so we could all be speaking the same language today. And I didn't say to stop taking in immigrants, I said we should spread them out, mainly to Europe since that is the origin of our most economically successful immigrants and we haven't been taking very many from there over the past thirty years.

[dialamah]

And I didn't say to stop taking in immigrants, I said we should spread them out, mainly to Europe since that is the origin of our most economically successful immigrants and we haven't been taking very many from there over the past thirty years.

Gosh, it sounds like immigration is sorta like a buffet: "I'll take lots of these good-looking white thingies, but I don't like those brown things over there; I'll take a couple of them, just to be polite"

[Argus]

Gosh, it sounds like immigration is sorta like a buffet: "I'll take lots of these good-looking white thingies, but I don't like those brown things over there; I'll take a couple of them, just to be polite"

The brownish ones are from the middle east. And no, I don't really need to take a couple of them because I don't really need to be polite. The ones I like are the ones which taste good, and that's the ones that earn the most money here. That means they're less likely to be on welfare or getting government handouts, and more likely to be paying income taxes, something very few of the incoming Syrians refuges are ever likely to experience.

The last stats I have on immigrant earnings by source area is about ten years old, but I doubt much has changed since then. The highest immigrant earners come from Europe and the US. The lowest come from Asia and Africa.

http://global-economics.ca/empin_immigrant_region.htm

Edited January 2, 2016 by Argus

[Machjo]

English remains by far the most important international language, and that isn't going to change. If our ancestors had had sense we would have done our best to ensure that French disappeared too, so we could all be speaking the same language today. And I didn't say to stop taking in immigrants, I said we should spread them out, mainly to Europe since that is the origin of our most economically successful immigrants and we haven't been taking very many from there over the past thirty years.

You say your ancestors should have ensured that our language disappeared too.

So by definition, you're condoning cultural genocide.

If your ancestors did not want French, why did they invade New France then?

[Argus]

You say your ancestors should have ensured that our language disappeared too.

So by definition, you're condoning cultural genocide.

If your ancestors did not want French, why did they invade New France then?

What I say is that Canada would be better, stronger, and more united with one language. Is your language the entirety of your culture? The Irish lost their language but not their distinct culture. Is your culture so much weaker than theirs?

The fighting in Canada was a reflection of the European war, and the French gave up New France in the peace negotiations because they felt Haiti was much more valuable.

[Machjo]

What I say is that Canada would be better, stronger, and more united with one language. Is your language the entirety of your culture? The Irish lost their language but not their distinct culture. Is your culture so much weaker than theirs?The fighting in Canada was a reflection of the European war, and the French gave up New France in the peace negotiations because they felt Haiti was much more valuable.

I would actually support reducing the official status of French in Canada.

Though I recognize that politically it can't be done overnight, we could start with Federal offices operating only in the dominant language of their respective provinces to start. That alone would save much money.

We could always explore further de-officializarion later.

What you seem to be proposing for English is the opposite, ever more statist linguistic intervention and encroachment into the private sector.

I'm confident that my French can thrive without any special status. Are you equally confident about your English?

[Argus]

What you seem to be proposing for English is the opposite, ever more statist linguistic intervention and encroachment into the private sector.

I'm confident that my French can thrive without any special status. Are you equally confident about your English?

Let's be honest. Had it not been for all the 'statist linguistic intervention' by government over the last century and a half Quebec would largely be an English speaking province.

And yes, I'm quite confident about English. Cut off the flow of newcomers from China and the remainder will gradually integrate into Canada and learn the same language as everyone else.

[WestCoastRunner]

Let's be honest. Had it not been for all the 'statist linguistic intervention' by government over the last century and a half Quebec would largely be an English speaking province.

And yes, I'm quite confident about English. Cut off the flow of newcomers from China and the remainder will gradually integrate into Canada and learn the same language as everyone else.

I'm curious. Do you have any knowledge of the Chinese immigration policies, especially here in BC?