B.C. condo language dispute sparks human rights complaint (merged with

[Machjo]

No one cares what your religion teaches you. I am informed by reality, not sky fairies.I am not speaking about 'seniority' but the advisability and wisdom of maintaining social cohesion. The more linguistic groups in a country the less social cohesian there is and the harder and more expensive it is to maintain services. I get you enjoy speaking Mandarin. I don't get how you think destroying the fabric of Canada is going to be good for anyone aside from you. Countries with multiple linguistic groups are prone to instability. Belgium is an absolute mess because of its multiple linguistic groups. Canada almost broke apart because of two different linguistic groups. Now you want to create more just so you can walk around congratulating yourself on knowing multiple languages? No thank you. I'm sure you'll enjoy living in Hong Kong.One way to make sure that doesn't happen is to redirect the flow of immigrants away from China, which is what we ought to do, and make no allowances for Chinese in Canada to avoid their integration into the Canadian mainstream. They must be required to know English to vote or interact with government in any way, shape or form.

As strange as it might sound, a country harboring no majority linguistic community is likely to be somewhat more cohesive than one harboring such a community.

Let's take Indonesia as an example. With over 100 linguistic communities and its most dominant community (the Malay) representing only about 40% of the population, the majority making up the other linguistic groups opted for Bahasa Indonesia (a language developed from a former regional pidgin language and spoken by no more than 10% of the population as a mother tongue, mostly in mixed families and in port cities like Jakarta, but spoken by over 99% of Indonesia's population as an auxiliary language) as Indonesia's common auxiliary language.

Ironically enough, the lack of sufficient diversity in Canada is what prevents English and French Canadians from integrating into a common linguistic community or even showing any interest in promoting aNY kindication of linguistic cohesion between them. The moment English and French Canadians can no longer just live monolingually each in their own enclave but must learn a second language en masse, they will then start to support some kind of international auxiliary language that would be easy enough for all to learn. All Canadians would benefit from the freedom to send their children to school in the language of their choice while ensuring that they all learn Canada's common second language.

Ironically enough, such diversity would promote a common language more effectively than less diversity ever can. Majorities are seldom willing to promote justice if it hurts their interests, being more interested in each sticking to their own enclave; but when everyone is a minority and no one can promote their own ethnic interests, then all will promote justice and unity in diversity, and so finally a common language, literature, and culture, and consequently more cohesion.

So if we want to promote unity, we must promote diversity. Two dominant linguistic communities will never give us a common language, literature, and culture. Many linguistic communities would forcefully thrust precisely that onto us.

[Argus]

As strange as it might sound, a country harboring no majority linguistic community is likely to be somewhat more cohesive than one harboring such a community.

That's utter nonsense.

Let's take Indonesia as an example.

A dictatorship for much of its existence which engaged in a bloody repression of separatists in East Timor for decades and now engaged with separatist movements in several provinces, not to mention Islamic terrorists? That Indonesia? That model of stability?

As I said, diversity, particularly of languages and religions, leads to social upheaval and often violence.

[WestCoastRunner]

As I said, diversity, particularly of languages and religions, leads to social upheaval and often violence.

I get so tired of listening to this BS. Do you have any evidence of this happening in Canada?

I believe that you simply just abhor diversity in Canada and like to get on your pedestal and shout out these inflammatory statements and hope that some of them stick.

And somehow you manage to infiltrate a thread about condo rights with your rhetoric.

Edited December 30, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

[Machjo]

That's utter nonsense.A dictatorship for much of its existence which engaged in a bloody repression of separatists in East Timor for decades and now engaged with separatist movements in several provinces, not to mention Islamic terrorists? That Indonesia? That model of stability?As I said, diversity, particularly of languages and religions, leads to social upheaval and often violence.

Limiting ourselves to linguistic policy, Indonesia is a democratic republic and has adopted one official language in spite of harboring no majority mother-tongue community.

As for East Timor:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timorese_independence_referendum,_1999

Seems democratic enough to me.

Given a choice between autonomy and independence, the people of East Timor voted for independence.

Clearly a minority opposed this and so deadly violence broke out. The will of the majority was respected though and independence was established.

Interestingly enough, it was Indonesia that wanted to push East Timor out because it was too expensive to subsidize but still had the courtesy to give them the choice to remain as a special autonomous region should they have wished to do so.

Indonesia had even called on the UN to administer the referendum to ensure the complete trustworthiness of the results.

[Machjo]

Not to commit social and cultural suicide.And I have no doubt whatsoever that if the natives had had any clue about what would happen they'd have butchered every European who set foot in North America the instant they saw them.

In spite of Chinese enjoying no particular constitutional or legal status in Canada, and in spite of Chinese Canadians having to navigate an Anglo-French constitutional and linguistic policy, the Chinese Canadian community is thriving.

Are you saying that English and French Canadian cultures are so feeble that, in spite of their larger populations, they would simply collapse like a row of dominoes without Constitutional, legal, and taxpayer support?

If they are indeed that feeble, are such frail cultures really worth preserving?

[Argus]

I get so tired of listening to this BS. Do you have any evidence of this happening in Canada?

Ever hear of Quebec separatism? Do you think that would ever have been a threat if Quebecers spoke English?

And somehow you manage to infiltrate a thread about condo rights with your rhetoric.

Here's an idea. If you don't like what I write, don't read it.

[TimG]

Limiting ourselves to linguistic policy, Indonesia is a democratic republic and has adopted one official language in spite of harboring no majority mother-tongue community.

Because a functional society requires a common language. There are a few countries that can manage with 2 when there are clear geographic divisions where only one of the 2 is dominate. But the idea that a society can function effectively with no common language is absurd.

[Argus]

In spite of Chinese enjoying no particular constitutional or legal status in Canada, and in spite of Chinese Canadians having to navigate an Anglo-French constitutional and linguistic policy, the Chinese Canadian community is thriving.

Let them thrive in English. There are already too many foreigners in BC. We need them to integrate, not form a Mandarin version of Quebec.

[Machjo]

I get so tired of listening to this BS. Do you have any evidence of this happening in Canada?

I believe that you simply just abhor diversity in Canada and like to get on your pedestal and shout out these inflammatory statements and hope that some of them stick.

And somehow you manage to infiltrate a thread about condo rights with your rhetoric.

He is partially right. Growing religious and linguistic diversity can incite imperialists to violence to adherence to their religion and language. We've seen it throughout Canadian history from the Indian Act to the Chinese Exclusion Act.

[Machjo]

Ever hear of Quebec separatism? Do you think that would ever have been a threat if Quebecers spoke English?Here's an idea. If you don't like what I write, don't read it.

The problem with English and French is that they are both among the more difficult languages to learn, thus making them the worst candidates for a common language for Canada.

What I can say is that expanding immigration could help to unite Canada. Chinese Quebecers won't support splitting from Chinese Ontario.

[TimG]

In spite of Chinese enjoying no particular constitutional or legal status in Canada, and in spite of Chinese Canadians having to navigate an Anglo-French constitutional and linguistic policy, the Chinese Canadian community is thriving.

Generally Chinese immigrants do not question the need to learn English or French. The use of Mandarin is largely a convenience because there are many recent immigrants who have not had a chance to learn. I have heard nothing to suggest that CBCs will not continue to learn English. The issue with the Strata is a question of how to accommodate owners when not everyone understands English. This implies that translation services are needed no matter what. Edited December 31, 2015 by TimG

[Machjo]

Because a functional society requires a common language. There are a few countries that can manage with 2 when there are clear geographic divisions where only one of the 2 is dominate. But the idea that a society can function effectively with no common language is absurd.

My point was that the reason Indonesia chose a common mostly second language was precisely because it had no clear linguistic majority among its many languages.

The reason Canada can't agree on a common language is precisely because of the excessively powerful British and French lobbies in the country who oppose a common language for Canada.

[Machjo]

Let them thrive in English. There are already too many foreigners in BC. We need them to integrate, not form a Mandarin version of Quebec.

Why must they thrive in English? I don't care in what language you thrive. Why do you care so much about the language in which I thrive. Can't we just be happy for people's success in life?

[WestCoastRunner]

He is partially right. Growing religious and linguistic diversity can incite imperialists to violence to adherence to their religion and language. We've seen it throughout Canadian history from the Indian Act to the Chinese Exclusion Act.

I like to think we have progressed.

[WestCoastRunner]

Ever hear of Quebec separatism? Do you think that would ever have been a threat if Quebecers spoke English?

Here's an idea. If you don't like what I write, don't read it.

That would mean I agree with your posts which I don't.

[TimG]

I like to think we have progressed.

We have progress because we trust that immigrants will live up to the implied social contract and learn English or French. If that changes then the reaction of people will change.

[WestCoastRunner]

Ever hear of Quebec separatism? Do you think that would ever have been a threat if Quebecers spoke English?

Here's an idea. If you don't like what I write, don't read it.

The whole purpose of a forum is to dispute rhetoric. Do you have a problem with that?

[WestCoastRunner]

We have progress because we trust that immigrants will live up to the implied social contract and learn English or French. If that changes then the reaction of people will change.

So if they don't learn English or French, society will disrupt into social chaos and violence?

[Argus]

Why must they thrive in English? I don't care in what language you thrive. Why do you care so much about the language in which I thrive. Can't we just be happy for people's success in life?

I have no particular attachment to English except that it's the language I happen to speak, as does the great majority of the population in North America. For that reason, it makes sense to focus on English as the central language for everyone in this country outside Quebec.

[Argus]

The whole purpose of a forum is to dispute rhetoric. Do you have a problem with that?

You were the one who was bitching about my 'infiltrating' this topic with my 'rhetoric', and also the one who suggested the other day I should butt out because this was in BC.

[TimG]

So if they don't learn English or French, society will disrupt into social chaos and violence?

We will lose social cohesion and this will create mistrust and social disruption. The Chinese exclusion act was not 'violent' - it was just a law.

[WestCoastRunner]

We will lose social cohesion and this will create mistrust and social disruption. The Chinese exclusion act was not 'violent' - it was just a law.

Do you have anything to back this up in Canada?

[WestCoastRunner]

We will lose social cohesion and this will create mistrust and social disruption. The Chinese exclusion act was not 'violent' - it was just a law.

It was a passive aggressive violent act btw.

[Argus]

Do you have anything to back this up in Canada?

Quebec ought to be more than enough for anyone with even a passing familiarity with history or modern politics.

[eyeball]

A dictatorship for much of its existence which engaged in a bloody repression of separatists in East Timor for decades and now engaged with separatist movements in several provinces, not to mention Islamic terrorists? That Indonesia? That model of stability?.

The distorted description of the reality in Indonesia given above completely ignores a couple of hundred years of fairly savage imperialistic rule, mostly ours, not to mention the dictatorship we armed against so many separatists struggling for independence from that colonialism and dictatorship.

To exclude any mention of our role in Indonesia's instability while criticizing that instability is, frankly speaking, repellant and unprincipled in the extreme.