Big Guy Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 It looks like you Islamophobes now have a credible spokesman in the United States - Donald Trump! Does that cause you to re-think your position? Does Donald really express your views? Do you now understand why so many people really wonder how you can have those views? Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Smeelious Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 I'm most sure that Trump isn't an Islamophobe so much as he's a popularist/alarmist monster that does whatever he needs to get temporary bumps in his poll numbers.
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 I'm most sure that Trump isn't an Islamophobe so much as he's a popularist/alarmist monster that does whatever he needs to get temporary bumps in his poll numbers. That's exactly what Trump is supposed to do...must be working if he is now bleeding over to Canadian Islamophobia and refugee threads. "TRUMP" still rides high on the Toronto skyline. Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 That's exactly what Trump is supposed to do...must be working if he is now bleeding over to Canadian Islamophobia and refugee threads. "TRUMP" still rides high on the Toronto skyline. Sorry, trump is soon to be stripped off both the Toronto and Vancouver skylines. We'll send the signs down south where they belong.
On Guard for Thee Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 I'm most sure that Trump isn't an Islamophobe so much as he's a popularist/alarmist monster that does whatever he needs to get temporary bumps in his poll numbers. Trump may or may not be an islamophobe, but he should think before making ridiculous racist statements such as he has, of the many brain dead mongrels in the US who are, and the fact that his comments may well lead to an increase in racial violence.
Smeelious Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 Trump may or may not be an islamophobe, but he should think before making ridiculous racist statements such as he has, of the many brain dead mongrels in the US who are, and the fact that his comments may well lead to an increase in racial violence. Like this you mean: http://usuncut.com/politics/this-muslim-store-owner-was-just-viciously-beaten-in-donald-trumps-hometown/
Rue Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 I would point out for the record since Big Guy has referred to himself, he is on the record on this forum making references to a belief (being chosen) he ascribed to ALL Jews and has in other posts ascribed common negative characteristics to all Israelis, Zionists, Jews and people who support the right of Jews to have a Jewish nation yet now on this thread throws out to Argus the comment, and I quote from him; "Nope. Presumption of collective guilt based on shared group characteristics (race/ethnicity in one case, religion in the other). Same shit, different pile." I would argue on past posts when in discussions on Israel he is engaged in the very tactic he now accuses Argus of with Muslims. I would argue in other threads on this forum, several in fact, "whites" whoever they are, have been targeted for a presumption of collective guilt based on shared group characteristics, and Big Guy did not challenge those threads. I would also point out Mr. Harder who I am never sure whether he is acting as moderator or participant on threads because its not made clear before he participates, has condemned what he has called negative group generalizations against all Muslims in discussions with criticizing Muslim extremism yet never expressed the same concern about whites or Zionists, or Jews. Why? Why the double standard? Why on this forum can people come on and make sweeping statements about all Jews or all Zionists or all Israelis, or all whites, or for that matter all Christians, and yet when its perceived as being done with Muslims, the same people who have no problem engaging in those negative generalizations against Christians, Jews, Whites, only speak out when its directed at Muslims? On this forum I have and only speak for myself and am on record as condemning negative generalizations about an entire people whether they be Muslim, gay, Jewish, whatever. I have not ever seen that from Bug Guy, Mr. Harder, Eye, or others and I say that not to single them out but to respectfuly generate a debate and discussion on this thread as to when objective criticism bout Muslim extremism crosses the line? Is anyone capable of expressing an objective test and standard to refer to that will be used for all peoples and not just Muslims? Has anyone ever seen a thread on this forum about Jewaphobia or Christianaphobia? I have openly criticized extremist Christians for bombing abortion clinics and no Christian responded to me claiming I was Christianphobic. What gives? Are any of you accusing Argus of generalizations not engaging in the very same exercise? Can you say you are not? Surely that is the point of this debate. Who decides what is bigoted and when? Is it Mr. Harder, Big Guy, a moderator? If its the moderator are they using an objective criteria that does not single out all negative generalizations only some? I am not questioning moderators. I am questioning forum participants. This is not for me an issue for moderation. This is an issue of when do we censor free speech on this forum because some of us feel we can single out certain opinions as unacceptable but look the other way on others and we define that censorship not based on an objective criteria, but a subjective criteria that looks at the target and then applies a subjective test based on who the target is, not the actual comments. I believe far worse has been said on this forum about women, gays, Christians, Jews, than Muslims. That is my subjective belief. I believe others would agree with me and we would argue there is a double standard depending on who the target is and that is what I question. I say it again. Stating all Muslims are terrorists is wrong. Stating its difficult if not impossible to know who is a good Muslim and who might be an extremist terrorist is the real issue and this inability to differentiate the two fuels demagogues like Donald Trump who play on that inability. What Trump says is what many feel. He is not wrong to say in WW2, because the US government could not differentiate between loyal and disloyal Japanese people, they were all rounded up. Is he an ignorant hateful man for saying the same might happen to Muslims? Is he? Tell that to the Japanese, Italians, Germans in the US rounded up or the same in Canada. He's not ignorant to warn that might happen. Its easy to say we should not stereotype Muslims. We all know its illogical to do so. On the other hand, which ones of you can tell any of us how you will be able to differentiate extremist terrorists from just orthodox fundamentalists? Its a problem with any religious people and its a particular problem now with Muslims different than Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Zoroastreans, Bahaiis, Taoists, Wiccans, etc., not because of bigotry but because of the specific on-going war by Muslim terrorists world-wife. Its not Islamophobic to say its more of a concern right now that a Muslim extremist is more likely to be terrorist than a Bahaii. Its a fact. Do any of you wake up worried about getting in a plane with a Buddhist monk? If it was a Muslim man dressed on orthodox garb, does ot make you a bigot to be nervous getting on a plane with them? Is that bigotry? Is it? Its easy to say it is but is it? Trump is a demagogue. He is doing what Mussolini did in Italy prior to WW2. He works without a script. He picks up on the fear of the day, the thing that makes people feel vulnerable, weak, exposed to violence they can't stop, and he takes that fear and exploits it. He is now exploiting a fear of Muslims and he will continue to do so because of three things: 1-terrorists engaging in terror attacks to trigger people like him to say what he says; 2-politically correct liberals refusing to acknowledge that fear of Muslims must be discussed openly; 3-an inability of any of us Muslim or non Muslim to know who among us is or is not a terrorist. I find the same people who for years stereotyping Israelis and Zionists now suddenly only criticizing negative generalizations when its done against Muslims full of it. I also believe the average American or Canadian knows the issue is not good Muslims, good Christians, good anyone, its knowing how to identify and contain bad people, terrorists and our concern is the same whether its a Muslim Christian, Jewish, or any other kind of terrorist. I categorically reject the positions of Harder, Big Guy, Eye and others on this forum on the grounds they engage in inconsistent standards and apply them differently. I support Argus because if I may use the expression, he hates everyone equally. He uses the same standard on Christians and Jews as he does Muslims. He criticizes us all for the exact same reasons. I do agree with anyone who says let's not scapegoat all Muslims. Let's not hate Muslims or Islam. That is pointless, its stupid, its hateful. I know good Muslims of all sects. I think as well to include Muslim victims of Muslim terrorism in with Muslim terrorists which is what some of us may be doing unintentionally when we label all Muslims with one description is wrong. We have to reach out to Muslim victims of Muslim terrorism and turn them into our peace allies-that is the way to defeat Muslim terrorism and how we do that will not be easy but we should not shy away from criticizing Muslim extremist views and supporting Muslim moderate views. I again repeat lumping Amidyah and Ismaili Muslims with Muslim terrorists is absurd. Lumping Muslim feminists, gays, trade unionists, activist students seeking democracy and progressive changes with Muslim extremists is wrong.
On Guard for Thee Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 Like this you mean: http://usuncut.com/politics/this-muslim-store-owner-was-just-viciously-beaten-in-donald-trumps-hometown/ Yes, and it's been going on for awhile. http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/20/politics/donald-trump-immigration-boston-beating/
Rue Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 Bush, Trump is expressing views that are unpopular but clearly many people agree with but are afraid to see in our politically correct climate. He is tapping in to a fear of being unable to differentiate between a moderate and extremist Muslim. Nothing he says is new. Its always been there. Its just be is deliberately poking a stick in a beehive to get the flies to come out in a swarm. He's a populist demagogue exposing issues the GOP and Democrats have been afraid to acknowledge let alone discuss. I personally think what he is doing in the long run is necessary for free speech. If a boil keeps puffing up, someone has to lance it. That is what Trump does. He loves to pop large abcesses in public. Clearly the US has become immune to its anti-biotic President and someone is dealing with the sores a very old fashioned way-jabbing at them to cause them to surface..
Rue Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 Muslims are not a race of people for those of you incorrectly calling Trump a racist. Muslims come in all "races". The term "Arab" was reinvented by Nasser in the 50's to describe all Middle Eastern Muslims and Christians but not Jews who speak Arabic. Muslims range from coal black to albino pink. Bosnian, Serbian, Albanian, Croatian Muslims are not the same "race" as people from Senegal or Malawi. For that matter the term race which was a subjective term used to define people's secondary characteristics such as lip shape, hair texture, amount of melanin in their skin has been proven to be meaningless as someone with very black skin can have more in common genetically with someone of very white skin than another black person. Enough with these false terms. Islam is a religion and when used on this thread, its used by some of you to mean Muslims of the Middle East. I doubt you pro Muslims are even Muslim let alone get the fact there are Muslims of all physical characteristics so calling them a race is absurd.
Big Guy Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 I would point out for the record since Big Guy has referred to himself, he is on the record on this forum making references to a belief (being chosen) he ascribed to ALL Jews and has in other posts ascribed common negative characteristics to all Israelis, Zionists, Jews and people who support the right of Jews to have a Jewish nation yet now on this thread throws out to Argus the comment, and I quote from him; "Nope. Presumption of collective guilt based on shared group characteristics (race/ethnicity in one case, religion in the other). Same shit, different pile." .... I made the mistake of trying to read this latest tome from Rue. Got as far as "Nope. Presumption of ......" and realized that Rue was attributing the quote to Big Guy instead of the actual poster who posted it. Stopped reading at this point assuming that the rest of the "insightful wisdom" will probably be up to the equal standard of accuracy. I should have known better than to even try to start to read it. Will try not to make that mistake again. Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
eyeball Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 If you're a white Christian and don't think gays should marry you're an evil bigot. If you're a Muslim and think gays should be executed, well, that's not something progressives are going to bother over, just like they won't care about the regressive social beliefs about gender equality which are commonplace throughout the Muslim world. Most bigots are conservative no matter what culture they come from. Conservatives are what make cultures backward, even more so than religion. I care quite a bit about the fact that gays are being executed by bigots, I just choose to focus on why the bigots are so bigoted and it's not because they're progressive liberals. A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Guest Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 Most bigots are conservative no matter what culture they come from. Conservatives are what make cultures backward, even more so than religion. I care quite a bit about the fact that gays are being executed by bigots, I just choose to focus on why the bigots are so bigoted and it's not because they're progressive liberals. The basic dictionary definition of bigot, Google page 1, is: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions. So, if this site is anything to go by, most bigots are certainly not conservative.
Argus Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 Most bigots are conservative no matter what culture they come from. Conservatives are what make cultures backward, even more so than religion. Progressives are just bigoted towards different groups, like Christians. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 Carolyn Parrish of "Damn Americans - I hate those bastards" fame was not a conservative. Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted December 9, 2015 Report Posted December 9, 2015 The basic dictionary definition of bigot, Google page 1, is: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions. So be it. I think a person who is intolerant of opinions that are bigoted trumps this definition. So, if this site is anything to go by, most bigots are certainly not conservative. If the context of the bigotry towards conservative opinions are anything to go by you're probably right...correct that is. A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
WestCoastRunner Posted December 10, 2015 Report Posted December 10, 2015 The basic dictionary definition of bigot, Google page 1, is: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions. So, if this site is anything to go by, most bigots are certainly not conservative. I will gladly accept that label if it means calling out citizens who are intolerant of an entire religion. I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Guest Posted December 10, 2015 Report Posted December 10, 2015 I will gladly accept that label if it means calling out citizens who are intolerant of an entire religion. Yes, so would I. I won't if it just means calling out those who are intolerant of the primitive and barbaric excesses of a religion, though.
Guest Posted December 10, 2015 Report Posted December 10, 2015 So be it. I think a person who is intolerant of opinions that are bigoted trumps this definition. Sure, but what about a person who is intorerant of opinions they actually agree with, but don't want mentioned? Like the primitive and barbaric excesses of a religion I mentioned in my reply to WCR?
eyeball Posted December 10, 2015 Report Posted December 10, 2015 Sure, but what about a person who is intorerant of opinions they actually agree with, but don't want mentioned? Like the primitive and barbaric excesses of a religion I mentioned in my reply to WCR? Don't lump me in with who or whatever you're talking about. I think executing and stoning people is every bit as primitive, barbaric and excessive as dropping bombs on people. I just can't help but notice that the overarching similarity between people who would do these things is that they're almost always very conservative in their outlook. I'm not the one who's afraid of having that mentioned. A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
WestCoastRunner Posted December 10, 2015 Report Posted December 10, 2015 Sure, but what about a person who is intorerant of opinions they actually agree with, but don't want mentioned? Like the primitive and barbaric excesses of a religion I mentioned in my reply to WCR? Would you call Trump a bigot? I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Guest Posted December 10, 2015 Report Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) Don't lump me in with who or whatever you're talking about. I think executing and stoning people is every bit as primitive, barbaric and excessive as dropping bombs on people. I just can't help but notice that the overarching similarity between people who would do these things is that they're almost always very conservative in their outlook. I'm not the one who's afraid of having that mentioned. Excellent, we're almost in agreement. I think it's worse, myself, as long as the people under the bombs deserve them. Edited December 10, 2015 by bcsapper
Guest Posted December 10, 2015 Report Posted December 10, 2015 Would you call Trump a bigot? Probably, but not for the obvious reasons. I have to say I agree with those who think he's pretending, for political reasons. I can't imagine anyone making as much money as he has and actually being that stupid. He has to be pretending.
WestCoastRunner Posted December 10, 2015 Report Posted December 10, 2015 Probably, but not for the obvious reasons. I have to say I agree with those who think he's pretending, for political reasons. I can't imagine anyone making as much money as he has and actually being that stupid. He has to be pretending. I think he's playing a game for sure. Unfortunately, his supporters don't. I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Guest Posted December 10, 2015 Report Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) I think he's playing a game for sure. Unfortunately, his supporters don't. Yeah, but who are they asking these poll questions? Not any minorities, that's for sure. Not women, or gays. And not many sane white males, if I do say so myself. Like I said earlier, he doesn't have a hope in hell of becoming President, so if the Republicans make him their boy they are committing political suicide. But he sure is fun to watch. Edited December 10, 2015 by bcsapper
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