Islamophobia in Canada

[Argus]

Their means of accomplishing that requires that Muslims be rejected by the Western world, and run back to ISIS.

Simply not true. Left completely alone, without foreign intervention, and I include the Russians and Iranians in that, ISIL would by now have conquered Syria, most of Iraq, and probably be busily undermining the Saud regime as well as the gulf coast sheikdoms. I see no reason why they wouldn't succeed, either, and then push into Lebanon and Jordan. There is a deep mystique among Muslims for a new Caliphate, and for simple (if extreme) religious answers to complex questions. And few have any great affection for the variety of dictators currently ruling over them. There is, for example, a large and ready audience of extremely religious Saudis who embrace the same harsh religious doctrines as ISIS. Hell, ISIS bases its doctrines on Wahhabism!

[Argus]

You are right, I have never personally spent time in the West Bank. I am, however, part of a rather small international organization that has had a permanent presence in the West Bank for over twenty-five years. Some of its members, past and present, are/were Muslim and Christian Palestinians. The organization has documented dozens of attacks on Palestinians by settlers, and its members have themselves been the victims of such attacks.

And have they been as zealous in documenting the attacks by Palestinians on Jews?

I'm guessing... NOT.

[jacee]

Simply not true. Left completely alone, without foreign intervention, and I include the Russians and Iranians in that, ISIL would by now have conquered Syria, most of Iraq, and probably be busily undermining the Saud regime as well as the gulf coast sheikdoms. I see no reason why they wouldn't succeed, either, and then push into Lebanon and Jordan. There is a deep mystique among Muslims for a new Caliphate, and for simple (if extreme) religious answers to complex questions. And few have any great affection for the variety of dictators currently ruling over them. There is, for example, a large and ready audience of extremely religious Saudis who embrace the same harsh religious doctrines as ISIS. Hell, ISIS bases its doctrines on Wahhabism!

Millions of Muslims have fled ISIS.

That doesn't look good on ISIS.

If they are discriminated against by 'the West', it increases chances of radicalization, turning them back to ISIS.

Most Muslims aren't much interested in Wahhabism.

.

[Guest]

Millions of Muslims have fled ISIS.

That doesn't look good on ISIS.

If they are discriminated against by 'the West', it increases chances of radicalization, turning them back to ISIS.

Most Muslims aren't much interested in Wahhabism.

.

What kind of behaviour by the west would make you join a group with the kind of record ISIS has?

I just can't see it, myself. I think there has to be a spark there anyway. A fairly bright one, at that.

[jacee]

What kind of behaviour by the west would make you join a group with the kind of record ISIS has?

I just can't see it, myself. I think there has to be a spark there anyway. A fairly bright one, at that.

I was just pointing out that Islamophobes who lump all Muslims with ISIS are helping ISIS with recruitment.

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Edited January 4, 2016 by jacee

[Guest]

I was just pointing out that Islamophobes who lump all Muslims with ISIS are helping ISIS with recruitment.

.

I don't know. It's like the cartoons. A letter to the Editor, a placard held aloft, perhaps. An inclination to vote where maybe there was not one before, sure. Heading off to kill people and likely be killed in turn. Just out of pique? I think that's a bit excessive.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. Just that one is probably more likely to be hit by lightning than to influence someone to join ISIS.

[Shady]

I was just pointing out that Islamophobes who lump all Muslims with ISIS are helping ISIS with recruitment.

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Complete nonsense. Do you think lumping all Christians with those Westboro Baptists would help with Westboro's recruitment? Of course not.

[Rue]

1-The point I was trying to make was simply that one reason it might be less likely that anti-Semitism in Canada will give rise in terrorist acts committed by radicalized Jews is that Canada is not part of a global coalition that has declared a global war on Jewish terrorists.

2-You are right, I have never personally spent time in the West Bank. I am, however, part of a rather small international organization that has had a permanent presence in the West Bank for over twenty-five years. Some of its members, past and present, are/were Muslim and Christian Palestinians.

3-I am certainly no expert on Palestine or Palestinian/Israeli relations and all its nuances.

4-Are you taking the position that the Fourth Geneva Convention does not apply and that the continuation of the building of settlements is legal and complies with international law? And are you saying that Palestinians have a viable option of getting their land back or seeking compensation for lost property in Israeli courts? The courts of the same country that provides settlers with protection of the IDF, but does not mandate or allow the IDF to protect Palestinians from settler violence?

5-As for rats in my ancestry I doubtlessly have several, although I know very little. I am a Canadian-born child of Friesian immigrants who moved to and settled in Canada from Holland in 1952. I don't know what role the Friesians played in all of that, but Holland sure has played its role in the colonization of and 'illegal' settlements in South Africa, Indonesia, etc. and got rich from the slave trade of Africans.

P.S. Please refrain from making reference to parrots, camels, yaks and rodents in your response.

First off you do need to watch Monty Python. It would be of tremendous assistance in helping you understand voles, wombats and titmouses or using your terms Jews, Christians and wombats. I am using wombat because Jacee gets upset if I use the word Muslim. I am trying to be culturally sensitive.

Secondly I numbered some of your previous comments for ease of reference.

In regards to your first point it is illogical. Its actually a fractured sentence. If I try decipher it, it appears you have made some absurd inference that by not challenging anti Jewish terrorists globally, there will be less or no anti Semitism that arises.

Its some absurd analogy of appeasement that says, if we protest or challenge Muslim extremism it fives rise to more Muslim extremism.

You in fact revise a failed pacifist turn the other cheek approach that has failed throughout history particularly with Neville Chamberlain but more ironically with Christians. Your analogy was used by Christians to look the other way with Hitler and do nothing. Very ironic considering that the Christians that did stand up and do something hiding and fighting for Jews sacrificed their lives so that people like you could inherit the world to preach pacifism and turning the other cheek. See I would not be on this planet if righteous gentiles many Christian did not reject your approach and stand tall against extremism.

Hitler would never have been defeated. If you can't see the irony in that I am not sure how else to explain it to you. Do you think Nazism would have just gone away if you didn't challenge it?

Do you think terrorism suddenly evaporates because you don't stand up to it.

You bet you don't understand me or the Middle East or Palestinians let alone Israelis. You don't have a clue as to how terrorism works. It doesn't exist because of colonialism, it exists in spit of colonialism. You even know who Arafat was. He ran drug caravans of opium and hash hish to Marseilles, France from Afghanistan, Iran, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon. He was an Egyptian who concealed his Egyptian roots and became a protige to the Mullah of Jerusalem and out and out Nazi calling or the genocide of all Jews as a guest of Hitler.

That's the origins of the so called Palestinian liberation movement. A bloody drug pusher who had to keep his homosexuality hidden or his own people would have killed him. He became the leade of his movement not because of any love for Palestinians but because he had connections all across the Middle East for his drug trade which would have been blown up by the same Muslims who donated land to Jews for Israel.

He was part of external Muslims who flooded Palestinian replacing legitimate Muslim Palestinians who had no war with Jews or Christians. The actual Palestinians of the time who were Jews, Muslims and Christian had no problems. It was outside Muslims who came in agitated by the Nazis, French and British who made the mess.

You don't know that because you sit in an arm chair surrounded by a bunch of Christian missionaries who think their sheeyit don't stink. You have no rats in your ancestry? Lol you have convenient amnesia. Look long enough and you will find Christians who were chopping off heads and torturing non believers. Don't pull that elitist I forget crap with me. Your ancestors sheeyit stinks as much as Muslim or Jewish poo, go on look back far enough and lower your nose

Back to Palestine which was never a nation Grasp that. Unless it was a nation you can't illegally seize it. It was never a nation. Never. Part of it, in fact most of it was illegally seized by Britain in violation of their mandate to create the Jew free state of Jordan which was and remains a Palestinian state. Its institutions refer to it as a Palestinian state and until 1967 any Palestinian could get automatic citizenship in Jordan.

The remaining 10% of Palestine time and time again was tried to be split in 2 one for a Jewish state and one for a second Palestinian state. It was the Arab League not Jews or Palestinians the Arab League that declared a war to rid the remaining area of Palestime of Jews. When their armies failed a border came about, i.e., pre 1967 Israel border called a de facto border. Its a border created not by consent or treaty but by virtual reality, i.e., by virtue of the fact that this is the point where Arab armies ran from and the Israelis advanced no further. After about 40 years of no interruption such borders can become legal under international law.

What people like you have no clue over, is that the Arab League never recognized the 1967 borders and like the Palestinan Authority has made it clear it will never under any circumstance ever recognize Jewish state. Any condition of recognition of Israel by the Arab League or Palestinian Authroity is conditional on Israel first becoming a sharia law state, i.e., taking back 5 million Muslims and those Muslims are anyone today who wants to call themselves Palestinian. There is no other test then self voluntary identification.

Most Muslims today who refer to themselves as Palestinian are descended from Muslims who in fact came to Palestine no different than Jews and were not native to Palestine and yet when Jews came from outside Palestinian they call called invaders , but when Muslims flooded to Palestine they cimply are called Palestinian? Why? Does your script you parrot comment on that? Why do you think that is?

How does your script ignore that most Muslims who flooded Palestine are no different than the Jews who came? Hmmm? Where do you think that

double standard comes from where a Muslim is not questioned as a Palestinian but a Jew can not be one.

Did your missionaries teach you? Can you not fathom that at the pith and substance of the dispute is he fact that in Islamic law, a Jew can not ever be equal to a Muslim-this means they can't own land be a citizen of a Muslim nation only a second tier guest confined to a ghetto and rules of inferiority?

Why do your missionaries not teach you about dhimmitude? You know why? Because your bloody ancestors did the very same thing to Jews. Isn't it ironic you now pose as a missionary with Christian indignation when your damn religion treated Jews identical to Islam-as cursed inferiors destined t o hell if they did not convert and not allowed to own land or be part of mainstream society.

You see the irony? Hell no you struggle with voles, titmouses an dwombats. How could you?

Your religion is as much to blame for blood against Jews as Islam remember that when you presume to call Jews of any kind terrorists.

What you think they returned to Israel because they had nothing better to do? They came because throughout the Islamic and Christian worlds, both your religions were wiping us out. We returned to Israel as a final existential imperative to prevent extinction as a people.

You don't get it because you are part of the majority in your society. If I put you in Sudan or Egypt and let you be targeted for being a Christian by Muslims boy would your tone of smugness change.

Go on ask a Coptic Christian who escaped Egypt or a Christian who escaped Sudan tell you what its like to be a Jew. Ask your fellow Christians in Iran. Lebanon, Nigeria. What world do you live in where you think Jews are thieves because they chose to return to their homeland to escape persecution?

Why is it when a Jew wants a nation you get all up in my face with righteousness but the thousands of years of Christians and Muslims seizing and occupying land gets no comment from you?

Listen Reverend or is it Padre or Pastor the tune I sing ain't no different for Kurds, Coptics, Amidyah Muslims, Berbers, Bahaiis, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Sieks, Hindus. We've all been targeted by Muslims in wars.

In the case of we Jews, we are just as Arabic and just as Palestinian as any Christian or Muslim Palestinian and the double standard that comes from Sharia law that says we are not because we can't own land, is from Sharia law, and Jews liberated ourselves from it.

We had no choice. Had you Christians not spent 3,000 years burning us and had the Muslims not done the same we ironically would not have needed to create a new nation from the old-you two created us-we rose from the ashes of your attempted slaughters.

Now you want to talk Geneva convention? Listen I teach law and practice law and I have no time to teach it to you You have to make an effort to go actually read the conventions to understand them. You haven't. You have relied on others to interpret them for you. Stop. Go find them out and read them.

Under international law, you can't occupy a nation that never existed. If on the other hand, you send your army into an area of land under dispute that has never been a sovereign nation you can gain the right to annex it and have it considered part of your country if not contested by war for say aboyt 50 years.

The land on the West Bank remains in dispute. None of the UN Resolutions passed can change that fact or take away the right of Jews to claim part of that land is their land. It can say part of the land WILL be a second Palestinian state, but it can not legally tell Israel it can' claim some of the land either.

You would understand that if you take the time to read and understand how international law works.

Now Israel has a right to safe and defensible borders. It does not and will never have to under international law expose itself to unsafe borders. It will never return to 1967 borders which made it impossible for it to defend itself.

You don't get it because you have never been there to understand how small and confined the land is to understand that.

Secondly what makes what Israel has done illegally under inyternational law, is not that it has entered onto the West Bank, but that it chooses to rule Israelis on the West Bank as citizens under their civilian government, but rule Palestinians under their military governor administration. That double standard is what makes it illegal.

If Israel had kept Israelis on the West Bank under the military administration as well, there would be no international violation. People like you don't get that because you do not understand how international law works.

Israel does not want the West Bank. If it took it, it would have to take in all Palestinians as Israeli citizens which would turn its majority Islam and cease its existence as a Jewish state. Thus the double standard.

The settlers were first sent in as a buffer zone against in coming terror attacks. They were early warning posts that sent back warnings of incoming terrorists and were used just like the US cavalry or Romans, Or Muslims used frontier sites to attack feuding tribes coming into towns.

The settlers consisted of two segments. One reluctant poor Israelis who received tax deductions and jobs. The other were extremists from New York.

The extremists from New York follow a Biblical hodge podge of Zionism based on a fundamentalist extremist interpretation of the Old Testament.

The majority of settlers however ended up there because 700,000 of 900,000 Jews expelled from the Arab world after they lost the way in 1949 to prevent an Israeli state were thrown out in retaliation and had to flee to 1967 Israel. That 1967 Israel is mostly Negev desert and so displaced refugees were placed on the West Bank. They were as displaced and unfairly treated as any so called Palestinian/

Yet no where in your dialogue is that acknowledged. Where the hell do you think they came from cabbage leaves?

There is another third portion of Jews who have been living on the West Bank since the ancient days. They do not recognize Israel as a state and believe the Messiah must come back before Israel can be created. They are ultra orthodox and do not consider me a Jew. According to the Palestinian Authority they will be expelled from the Wes Bank. Those are your 3 components of Israeli settlers-reluctant people who had no choice but to go live there, (33%), extremists (about 25%) and these Jews still living in a twilight zone unchanged from thousands of years ago ( 40%).

How do I know? Unlike you I was there. I know these 3 types of Israelis have little in common.

I also know Palestinians of the West Bank are just as phacked up. Most are desceded from squatters who moved to Palestinian and stole land or squatted on land belong to Palestinian Muslims.

There is more infighting and civil animosity between Palestinians on the West Bank then with Jewish settlers. You would know that if you were there.

You would also now the Israeli Defence Force is despised by all of them. Israeli and Palestinian. Their check points, their constan body checks discriminate equally.

I know ask me how whose spit it was.

What do you think the body checks were for hmmm? You don't get it. Most Palestinians are poor farmers. They wanted to go into Israel to work. They had no problems with Jewish Israelis or vice versa. Poor is poor. They smell the same, get hungry the same, sheeyit the same, rink the same damn water.

When I cleaned feet and sores, its the same pus whether its a titmouse, wombat or vole and yes use those terms because if we use Jew, Christian or Muslim you get all sanctimonious on me.

A bomb is a bomb. A kidney or liver is just that. When a body blows up they are all the damn same. You don't get that I do.

As for land title, individual land title is not the same as sovereign right to create borders of a nation. Two different kinds of law.

Yes under the Israeli Supreme Court, Palestinian right to land on the West Bank was recognized just as Arab Israelis had land title recognized by the Israeli Supreme Court,

Your problem is you need to find out what the difference between international and domestic law is, interntional and national law, private property title law, municipal law, military law, Canon Law, Sharia Law, Rabbinical law, because untl you do, you talk nonsense.

When people like me try explain what I get is the same tiresome anti Israelis saying oooh my posts are too long.

It takes more than a tend second internet sound bite to even begin to explain this issue and the mosaic of interrelated legal disputes.

Right now those in control of Palestinians do not recognize Jewish or Christian land title rights or the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state but demand a second Palestinian state seizing Christian and Jewish land titles illegally and even allowing non Palestinian Muslim squatters to take land from Palestinians.

You don't get that because the people who you work with need to see a black and white and your motivation is to cleanse your own guilty Christian soul of guilt for past wrongdoings against Jews by posing Jews now as deserving demons. See as long as they are bad evil people, hey now your memory as to your ancestors remains oh so convenient.

By the way go look at Holland and how many of its people hid Jews and support Israel. Ironic isn't it.

I know Holland Lived there tool Saw its people defend me as a human being with a right to a Jewish state when it as trendy to say otherwise. Same people that do not forget Canadians ever.

I like the Dutch. Just not the prostitutes in the glass cubicles.. Scary.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Rue

[Hudson Jones]

I don't know. It's like the cartoons. A letter to the Editor, a placard held aloft, perhaps. An inclination to vote where maybe there was not one before, sure. Heading off to kill people and likely be killed in turn. Just out of pique? I think that's a bit excessive.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. Just that one is probably more likely to be hit by lightning than to influence someone to join ISIS.

When you segregate and isolate a group of people based on the acts of a much smaller group, it's inevitable that they will go towards those who will embrace them.

The more Islamophobia increases, the more harassment and discrimination you see towards Muslims, the more bombing of and killing of civilians, the easier it will be for ISIS to recruit.

[Guest]

When you segregate and isolate a group of people based on the acts of a much smaller group, it's inevitable that they will go towards those who will embrace them.

The more Islamophobia increases, the more harassment and discrimination you see towards Muslims, the more bombing of and killing of civilians, the easier it will be for ISIS to recruit.

Not when that group cuts people's heads off it isn't.

Every now and then some abuse is hurled on a bus or a train and that's reason enough to leave the country and join a group that rapes and kills indiscriminantly (Well, kind of indiscriminantly. Infidels only ) according to you? If that were true there'd be no world left.

No, we need more than that.

Edited January 5, 2016 by bcsapper

[WestCanMan]

If you really believe that then what do you suggest that we do about it?

I assume that you are not just looking for something to complain about but have some intelligent solutions.

How about not bring in 35,000 of them from the world's foremost terrorist hotbed in a short period of time and without adequate screening?

[WestCanMan]

Millions of Muslims have fled ISIS.

That doesn't look good on ISIS.

If they are discriminated against by 'the West', it increases chances of radicalization, turning them back to ISIS.

Most Muslims aren't much interested in Wahhabism.

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Stop taking the blame for everyone who gets pissed off.

[tworivers]

I answered the gist of a really poorly written question.

Hey, there's another upside to Islamophobia, all the heartwarming concern towards the plight of the homeless you guy's seem to have recently developed - like your concern for homosexuals.

Why should homelessness be an issue now that you conservatives have become concerned about it?

No. If you think wasting billions on policies that create refugees in the first place is such a good idea you pay for it.

I never said I was a Conservative which I am not . It would seem you have jumped on the refugee band wagon I see . As for your comments on the homeless here is just disgusting while preaching peace and those poor refugees deserve to be here and we should spend billions on them .

You would not happen to be a policy adviser to the Liberals now would you ?

I find that people like you say one thing over and over which is " I am right and those who disagree are racist bigots ". Yes you disguise it but that is what it is. One day soon we will have to have an open conversation on Muslims and what we will allow in Canada because if we do not we will not like the results.

Homeless here well I will not look for your caring words or donations which is alright as it shows how hollow most like you are yet there are many who try and help them without the spotlight or the PM selfies or the big dollars the refugees coming here are getting.

I do not think wasting billions on anything is a good idea but to state that the billions created this is not a very enlightened statement especially coming from a country who relies on oil so heavily and if you do not understand this statement I suggest you go back and read.

After reading and understanding all this.......welcome to the real world.

[Argus]

When you segregate and isolate a group of people based on the acts of a much smaller group, it's inevitable that they will go towards those who will embrace them.

Really? The Americans interned Japanese in WW2. The response from Japanese American men was to join the US army to show them their loyalty and value.

[Big Guy]

No, we need more than that.

Just what is it that we need?

[Big Guy]

How about not bring in 35,000 of them from the world's foremost terrorist hotbed in a short period of time and without adequate screening?

What about the 1.2 billion other Muslims in the world who want to come here, take over and kill us all (according to you)?

[Guest]

Just what is it that we need?

I need more of a reason to run off and join ISIS than Islamophobia. Given the relatively benign form it takes compared to what the people who supposedly suffer it are willing to do in return.

As I've asked of others, what would it take for you to go cut someone's head off?

[Big Guy]

...

As I've asked of others, what would it take for you to go cut someone's head off?

Me, I don't answer to hypotheticals because they are too general.

As to what would it take others to cut someone's head off? I believe that it is the same thing that causes people to become suicide bombers, to immolate themselves as a form of protest or to fly airplanes into destroyers or to charge an enemy line with explosives tied around your waist. The individual feels that their cause is more important than their own lives and intends to take some enemy with him/her.

It may be retaliation for having parents, children or other loved ones murdered (as "acceptable" collateral action) or it may be nationalistic fervor believing that you are saving your country or believing that your God demands it.

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." - Sun Tzu

[SRV]

And have they been as zealous in documenting the attacks by Palestinians on Jews?

I'm guessing... NOT.

No, they haven't. They are invited and hosted by Palestinians, and trying to make sure that that side of the story gets out.

Edited January 5, 2016 by SRV

[WestCoastRunner]

Really? The Americans interned Japanese in WW2. The response from Japanese American men was to join the US army to show them their loyalty and value.

And the Muslim communities across Canada have been working with their youth and engaging with law enforcement to report any suspicious behaviour. (To show their loyalty). Edited January 5, 2016 by WestCoastRunner

[Hudson Jones]

Not when that group cuts people's heads off it isn't.

Every now and then some abuse is hurled on a bus or a train and that's reason enough to leave the country and join a group that rapes and kills indiscriminantly (Well, kind of indiscriminantly. Infidels only ) according to you? If that were true there'd be no world left.

No, we need more than that.

Discrimination against Muslims have skyrocketed since the Paris attacks. For example, in the UK, it has tripled. You know very well that it's more than some guy insulting someone on a bus. In the U.S., you have a presidential candidate saying Muslims should be banned from entering a country and you have other politicians saying Syrian refugees should be shot in the head. It's become ugly. Really ugly.

Marginalization and discrimination based on ignorance and bigotry does nothing to improve the situation. Not to mention that we are continuously bombing Syria and Iraq where at least 200 people a day are being killed. The West's military approach and the discrimination against Muslims is only helping the ISIS recruiters.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Hudson Jones

[Hudson Jones]

Really? The Americans interned Japanese in WW2. The response from Japanese American men was to join the US army to show them their loyalty and value.

So what are you trying to say? It's okay to discriminate against them? That they should just take it? It sounds like you are trying to excuse the bigotry and discrimination against Muslims.

But anyway, there is already a fairly large number of Muslims in the U.S. army.

Back in word war 2, alone, there were over 15000 Arab American, in which the majority were Muslims serving in the U.S. military. What about when U.S. were engaged in questionable wars, against Muslim countries?

The number of enlisted Muslim Americans in the U.S. military has increased substantially since these previous wars. According to Department of Defense figures, more than 3,500 Muslims fought in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Link

[Argus]

Discrimination against Muslims have skyrocketed since the Paris attacks.

All the way to forty something reports.

The one thing we absolutely know for sure is attacks against Jews are much greater... and that you couldn't possibly care less.

[Argus]

So what are you trying to say?

That contrary to what the poster suggested, turning into a terrorist is not the obvious thing for people who are discriminated against to do.

[Hudson Jones]

That contrary to what the poster suggested, turning into a terrorist is not the obvious thing for people who are discriminated against to do.

It increases the chances of it happening. Kind of like the French and Belgium nationals who carried out the Paris attacks. It takes one lone pissed off impressionable kid, to be embraced by the terrorist organizations and then learn to make a bomb in his basement in Kentucky, to make a huge impact.

The point is that discrimination and marginalizing a group of people is not only the wrong thing to do morally but it's also counterproductive.