Paris Terrorist Attacks

[Derek 2.0]

So your position then is that we should never accept anyone, because as has been said above, proper vetting is impossible (keep in mind that is part of my position, although you're all doing a find job of convincing me to change it)?

Where did I suggest that? My position is quite clear, we shouldn't rush the process, when said refugees are safe in camps in Southern Europe, putting our own national security at risk, so Trudeau can keep a political promise.

[Smallc]

Where did I suggest that? My position is quite clear, we shouldn't rush the process

Apparently, the process didn't work in this case (of course you're confusing me talking about refugees properly vetted by the UN with those that are simply processed by them). How can we ever trust it?

[Big Guy]

These 7 suicide bombers (ISIS says there were 8) killed themselves and at least a hundred others for a reason. What reason?

Some bright lights here believe that it is to intimidate countries into leaving the Middle East. I guess there is one born every minute.

The intent of this movement has always been to separate the Muslim world from the rest of the world, radicalize the Muslims and set up that Caliphate of Sunni Iraq/Syria.

The USA's first reaction to ISIS was to drop some bombs. The resulting "collateral damage" created a few new radicals and zealots from around the world started to show interest. Then the USA formed a coalition of the confused which Canada joined. So now lots of coalition bombers were dropping lots of bombs on villages and creating lots of "collateral damage". This created lots of radicals and now zealots from all over the world were starting to stream into ISIS strongholds. A few of the ISIS were also being killed and there was a need for new recruits - time to get the West really pi$$ed to send more bombers and make more recruits.

So the operation in Paris is successful. The West is outraged and the bright lights are calling for more bombings and even ground troops into the area - we are swallowing the bait hook, line and sinker. We even pretend that Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan never took place.

To top it off, there are millions of moderate Muslims who have been displaced and are basically wandering through Europe. If ISIS can get those European nations to shut their borders and stuff those refugees into secure compounds (camps) then soon those moderates will be ripe for radicalization - and I see the Europeans are starting to do just that. Good grief!

Now those anti-Liberal cheerleaders are trying to use Trudeau's refugee policy as yet another weapon to try to bash him. Sure, lets just ignore those refugees and they will just go away or disappear or ...? Maybe they will decide that going back and joining ISIS is a better deal for them.

What do you think was the long term intent by ISIS for that Paris attack?

[Derek 2.0]

Apparently, the process didn't work in this case (of course you're confusing me talking about refugees properly vetted by the UN with those that are simply processed by them). How can we ever trust it?

Apparently not.

[WestCoastRunner]

The U.S. has provided some intel to France. They are currently bombing strategic locations in Syria.

This post was contributed from a 'bright lights' poster.

Edited November 15, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

[Derek 2.0]

The U.S. has provided some intel to France. They are currently bombing strategic locations in Syria.

This post was contributed from a 'bright lights' poster.

Indeed, most of France's allies involved in the fight against ISIS have pledged to increase their efforts........except Canada of course.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Derek 2.0

[Rue]

I think there are two different issues to look at. One is how to best deal with ISIL and world wide terrorism, the other the movement of mass migration including refugees and economic migrants.

The sad thing is certain refugees are escaping the very putrid terrorists using them as cover or killing them. Innocent refugees or migrants will be looked upon now with suspicion, hatred and be the target if hate attacks precisely because that is what terrorists want-a reaction that polarizes all displaced Muslims or migrants and causes Muslims to turn into a shell and many of their children or young men to be easier to recruit by terrorists since they will be isolated and hated.

I do not trust the UN at all let alone overworked, rushed Canadian immigration officials pushed by unrealistic time limes. Security will be compromised. The artificial time line is simply a spoiled rich boy demanding an unrealistic demand and someone needs to tell the rich boy, no Justin grow up, 25,000 the arbitrary number you picked,can not be screened properly in less than 6 months.

John McCallum let it slip at one point as he was babbling that security chcks may have to be done on refugees only once they are in Canada. Someone needs to tell this drunken oaf thrown off not one but two public flights for being plastered that once in Canada, the Charter does not allow you to detain refugees until a security check is done. What an idiot.

I ask you If this terrorist attack had happened during the election instead of the event of the dead boy showing up on the beach, do any of you think Trudeau would not have been elected? . Do any of you think Trudeau would be pushing the way he is now with his unrealistic refugee screening deadline or pulling of the jets?

Of course not. His mandate was predicated on exploiting the death of a bay to get elected.

So I argue, yes its compassionate and moral take in genuine refugees but ditch this ridiculous time line and do it properly and take whatever time is needed-state security need not be compromised because of some spoiled rich boy's ego and his not understanding the word.

As for pulling the jets Canadians have elected a leader completely and utterly out of touch with the world-a spoiled rich sheltered biy who no one said no to and is not prepared for reality. If he thinks he can just pull jets and at the same time utter platitudes he is dead wrong. Dead wrong.

He has no credibility saying he stands behind France and the world fighting ISIL then pulling the jets. Those jets in the large scheme of things may not mean much but they are symbolic that we stand with our allies. Pull them and he gives our allies the finger. He needs to grow up, find some testacles, put his ego to the side and think.

The days of thinking one can be isolationist and not be part of a larger world force involved in a war against terror is over. The borders are too small and the interaction and interdependence of all nations is too pronounced.

Now is the time to grow up and say, o.k. let me talk to my fellow allies first before I act unilaterally and alienate all my allies.

I will agree that the bombing mission by itself won't end this but withdrawing Canada from world stage at this time would send a horrible message.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Rue

[Moonlight Graham]

This was a very sophisticated operation targeting 7 venues at the same time. The equipment and armaments were standard but at least 7 quite complicated suicide vests. This operation required months or preparation and detailed communication.

Not good news. Either they have discovered a new kind of encryption in their electronic communications or they have discovered another means of communication (a commentator quipped that maybe they are sending letters by post since nobody is monitoring those any more). For French or Western security to have not picked up any indicator of that attack bodes ill.

This is true. The attacks in Canada last year were very unsophisticated and were "lone gunmen" incidences, so it's virtually impossible to stop those. But this was a highly coordinated attack involving a group of people. Will be interesting to learn how they planned this & communicated.

[Moonlight Graham]

While I agree that by the end of the calendar year is too soon for this I think by the end of the fiscal year is possible.

I think most people agree that Trudeau's refugee policy promise was stupid and reckless. Not a good start for Trudeau's gov.

[Moonlight Graham]

We have the luxury of bringing people in that are either vetted or in the process of being vetted by other countries and the UN. Europe doesn't have that same luxury.

Yeah, not many Syrian refugees coming into Canada by walking or by dingy.

[WestCoastRunner]

Indeed, most of France's allies involved in the fight against ISIS have pledged to increase their efforts........except Canada of course.

It's my understanding that Canadian jets are still bombing targets and have not been pulled yet. No decision has been formally announced as to when or if it will now happen.

[msj]

I think most people agree that Trudeau's refugee policy promise was stupid and reckless. Not a good start for Trudeau's gov.

I disagree. These attacks are very good for Trudeau as they provide an opportunity for him to "flip flop" on his promise.

I still think no none would have cared anyway by the time we get to the next election.

[Derek 2.0]

It's my understanding that Canadian jets are still bombing targets and have not been pulled yet. No decision has been formally announced as to when or if it will now happen.

They are under the previous mandate, good through March of next year, until the Government directs them to do otherwise.

Work with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to end Canada’s combat mission in Iraq and Syria, refocusing Canada’s efforts in the region on the training of local forces and humanitarian support.

Of note, Canadian Hornets and special forces (alongside our allies) several days ago helped the Kurds retake a town held by ISIS.......

[Smallc]

They are under the previous mandate, good through March of next year, until the Government directs them to do otherwise.

Of note, Canadian Hornets and special forces (alongside our allies) several days ago helped the Kurds retake a town held by ISIS.......

That speaks volumes actually. Trudeau is keeping the jets there, or they'd be home. They'll probably not come home until the end of March. He's already changed his tune, even before the attacks, on this issue.

[WestCoastRunner]

They are under the previous mandate, good through March of next year, until the Government directs them to do otherwise.

Yes, I know that, but Trudeau has not mandated a date for withdrawal. It could be sooner or it could now be later. We will have to wait and see how things unfold.

[Derek 2.0]

Yes, I know that, but Trudeau has not mandated a date for withdrawal. It could be sooner or it could now be later. We will have to wait and see how things unfold.

That's very true.

[Moonlight Graham]

These 7 suicide bombers (ISIS says there were 8) killed themselves and at least a hundred others for a reason. What reason?

Some bright lights here believe that it is to intimidate countries into leaving the Middle East. I guess there is one born every minute.

The intent of this movement has always been to separate the Muslim world from the rest of the world, radicalize the Muslims and set up that Caliphate of Sunni Iraq/Syria.

First, I'm still not 100% convinced this attack was done by ISIS, or that a central planning command in the middle-east knew about it (even though ISIS has claimed responsibility). I've save judgement until more info comes out.

As to above, I think it's both. You have to realize this is a war, an asymmetrical war. If ISIS (or al-Qaeda) can't attack France in Syria (they're attacking from the sky in jets) they'll attack them on their own soil. ISIS wants to inflict death in retribution for French attacks on ISIS, just as the French right now are attacking ISIS in retribution for the Paris attacks.

But yes it's also to galvanize support for the ISIS cause, and to use it s a recruitment tool. Here's an interesting article with an interview from a Canadian journalist who has a PhD in middle-east history and an Masters in military history on what he thinks of all this.

Also, from the ISIS statement after the Paris attack:

"Let France and all nations following its path know that they will continue to be at the top of the target list for the Islamic State and that the scent of death will not leave their nostrils as long as they partake in the crusader campaign, as long as they dare to curse our Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him), and as long as they boast about their war against Islam in France and their strikes against Muslims in the lands of the Caliphate with their jets, which were of no avail to them in the filthy streets and alleys of Paris. Indeed, this is just the beginning. It is also a warning for any who wish to take heed."

Edited November 15, 2015 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

Now is the time to grow up and say, o.k. let me talk to my fellow allies first before I act unilaterally and alienate all my allies.

Trudeau, to his, credit, is doing this. He hasn't pulled any Jets from their missions yet. His gov recently said he's going to talk to allies first before doing anything.

[ReeferMadness]

This operation took place without any indicatioin that it was imminent. The Washington people to-day described it as them "going dark".

This was a very sophisticated operation targeting 7 venues at the same time. The equipment and armaments were standard but at least 7 quite complicated suicide vests. This operation required months or preparation and detailed communication.

I agree that this took some time and planning but a "sophisticated operation"? It seems like there were several teams of people spread around the city killing people. Hardly a "mission impossible" operation. Apparently, France has a large population of disaffected Muslims so that's where the logistic support would be.

I understand that Kalashnikovs are readily available in Eastern Europe and open borders makes it easy to smuggle them across borders. I read that the explosive used was TATP, which is fairly simple to make out of readily available materials.

The one thing I would say was that it seemed like the shooters were by all accounts well trained. So, it's reasonable to think that they were involved in the middle east wars and made their way to Paris (perhaps home to France in some cases).

Edited November 15, 2015 by ReeferMadness

[ReeferMadness]

The U.S. has provided some intel to France. They are currently bombing strategic locations in Syria.

So, business as usual. They're pursuing the same actions that have brought us to where we are now. Are we going to expect different results?

[ReeferMadness]

This is true. The attacks in Canada last year were very unsophisticated and were "lone gunmen" incidences, so it's virtually impossible to stop those. But this was a highly coordinated attack involving a group of people. Will be interesting to learn how they planned this & communicated.

France has a large population of disaffected Muslims living in ghettos If we want to take a lesson from France, that is where we should look. Canada also has a large, disaffected population living apart from most of the rest of us. But they're not Muslims, they're indigenous peoples.

[Big Guy]

ISIS targeted France for a number of reasons including the fact that French airplanes are bombing Syrian and Iraq positions and doing a little damage but not creating enough "collateral damage". So the French react:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/france-isil-raqqa-g20-151115211105532.html

French jets pound Raqqa as G20 pledges new ISIL fight. So France was in a serious war but is now going to be more serious in its war. More bombs, more martyrs, more collateral damage and more radicalized zealots.

Way to go France - hook, line and sinker! There are sturgeon in our lake who are smarter than you.

[WestCoastRunner]

So, business as usual. They're pursuing the same actions that have brought us to where we are now. Are we going to expect different results?

I don't know. This is what I have read from today's bombing:

The bombs targeted a command center, an arms depot, 3 recruitment posts and a training camp.

Good for them.

France is now asking to be part of the 'Five Eyes Intelligence Alliance', which currently includes: U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Britain. They have unfortunately paid their dues to belong to this Alliance.

[Derek 2.0]

But yes it's also to galvanize support for the ISIS cause, and to use it s a recruitment tool. Here's an interesting article with an interview from a Canadian journalist who has a PhD in middle-east history and an Masters in military history on what he thinks of all this.

And here is a far more informed piece, also by a Canadian, on the folly of equating a group like Al Qaeda with that of ISIS, and how best to contend with ISIS:

Given everything we know about the Islamic State, continuing to slowly bleed it, through air strikes and proxy warfare, appears the best of bad military options. Neither the Kurds nor the Shia will ever subdue and control the whole Sunni heartland of Syria and Iraq—they are hated there, and have no appetite for such an adventure anyway. But they can keep the Islamic State from fulfilling its duty to expand. And with every month that it fails to expand, it resembles less the conquering state of the Prophet Muhammad than yet another Middle Eastern government failing to bring prosperity to its people.

[WestCoastRunner]

Iraqi intel has released info that 24 individuals were involved in the attack on Paris and they were trained in Raqqa (the place that was bombed today).