Netanyahu: It was Mufti of Jerusalem who convinced Hitler to kill Jews

DogOnPorch · November 1, 2015

So somehow, the Zionist terrorist roots (including their leaders who became future prime ministers) are only in the past and the Zionist attempts at collaboration with the Nazis and fascists are only in the past and they have nothing to do with the Zionists and Jews today. But somehow, according to you and Netanyahu, because of the Mufti's (chosen by the British) and his involvement with the SS, Palestinians today are like the Nazis and to be blamed for the holocaust... oh yeah, on top of all of this and according to the topic of this thread, of course, there is the highly disputed (by multiple holocaust historians) version of the degree that the Mufti was involved with the holocaust. Neither of you regular Netanyahu apologists have come out to speak out against Netanyahu's comment that the "Mufti pushed Hitler to burn the Jews, instead of just expelling them".

DoP: Your obsession with the Mufti and your inability to call out Bibi for his pathetic exaggeration and lies, not to mention your insistence that the Zionist terrorist history has no significance in what Israel is today, makes it difficult to accept your comments as legitimate and it makes it difficult to take you seriously.

One 'Zionist leader' attempted to make a deal to free Jews from Nazi Germany in exchange for fighting the British. The SS never replied...the British shot him dead....Avraham Stern.

Shamir and Begin were both in Irgun.. Shamir also joined the Stern Gang. Begin was involved in the bombing of the British military HQ in the King David Hotel. I'm not Jewish...nor am I particularly supportive of Israel and what it does. So I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to say about them in order to satisfy you.

The Mufti...whom I'm 'obsessed with' due to my own family's connection to him...was a high ranking SS man in charge of Hitler's Middle East Bureau. His activities during WW2 are a matter of history. But, of course, it was the Mufti who started all the fighting in the Levant...kicking things off with his 1920 pogrom during the Nebi-Musa Festival. I do hold the perpetrator (the Mufti) to be more to blame than those who reacted to his violent murder sprees. Irgun and the Stern Gang were both created as a result of the Mufti's violence. No Mufti...no Irgun.

I do understand that a figure like the Mufti...or even his nephew, Arafat...portray a rather negative aspect of the Palestinian movement that its supporters would dearly like to forget and hide. I really do.

Edited November 1, 2015 by DogOnPorch

DogOnPorch · November 1, 2015

I wonder if Abbas will ever blame the holocaust on the Jews because Lehi sought an alliance with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, to fight against the British.

"We must all trust the good Lord to save us from our Italian friends."

---Reinhard Heydrich during the Wannsee Conference (Jan 1942)

eyeball · November 1, 2015

I do understand that a figure like the Mufti...or even his nephew, Arafat...portray a rather negative aspect of the Palestinian movement that its supporters would dearly like to forget and hide. I really do.

Again...sorta like MacKenzie King portrays the way shit happens. I feel your pain.

Time to get over it don't you think?

marcus · November 2, 2015

I do understand that a figure like the Mufti...or even his nephew, Arafat...portray a rather negative aspect of the Palestinian movement that its supporters would dearly like to forget and hide. I really do.

The Mufti, sure. But he wasn't really much of a leader. He was appointed by the British and was never really popular with the Palestinians. Not like Begin and Shamir who were leaders of terrorist organizations and eventually became prime ministers of Israel. When was the last time there was a discussion about Israel's roots in terrorism?

But yeah, time to move on and also condemn straight up lies by Netanyahu, instead of dancing around.

Let's look at what we have in front of us. It's time that Israel accepts the Arab league deal. They are offering Israel peace for the internationally recognized borders and are open to land swaps and compensation for the Palestinian refugees locked out of their homes inside Israel. Why not take this offer?

Rue · November 2, 2015

Broken record. Iran, the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, none will recognize the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state and the entire lot are in a state of declared war against Israel.

Gee why not recognize a deal that proposes you cease to exist and calls that a peace deal.

Broken record.

The Mufti was a leader, and the goosestepping Hamas, Syria, Hezbolllah, Hamas, PA, Iran, all deny the holocaust, use the Hitler salute and have engrained in their charters the genocide of Jews world wide but hey let's play fantasy with Marcus and pretend that does not exist.

The Arab League has made it clear they will never accept the existence of a Jewish state.

Go on Marcus tell them all how you support the existence of a Jewish state. This thread is clearly dead and you want to change the subject, so go on lecture us all on how you recognize Jews as having the right to a Jewish state free of terrorism.

Lol.

What a joke.

BC_chick · November 2, 2015

Go on Marcus tell them all how you support the existence of a Jewish state.

I know the issue of the Paletinian refugees is contentious after 60 years, but I think below marcus was quite clear in recognizing the Jewish State in his post:

Let's look at what we have in front of us. It's time that Israel accepts the Arab league deal. They are offering Israel peace for the internationally recognized borders and are open to land swaps and compensation for the Palestinian refugees locked out of their homes inside Israel. Why not take this offer?

At this point I think everyone feels the same way. Even the Hamas leader said in an interview that it's not that he doesn't recognize the Jewish State, but the Jewish State has yet to define its borders where he could make a correct assessment of his recognition or rejection.

Rue · November 2, 2015

No BC that semantics game is over. Hamas, PA, Marcus, the whole lot, do not recognize the right of Israel to be a JEWISH STATE under any condition.

The reference to Israel with internationally recognized border refers to a NON JEWISH state that would take in 5 million Palestinian refugees and not be Jewish but Sharia in statehood. That is fact. Its in the Charter of Hamas, the PA, Hezbollah, Fatah. That is the specific position of Syria, Iran.

The code reference, the couched reference to saying a state but not Jewish state, to play games and make it seem as if its recognition of Israel as we know it is dead. That semantic game is dead.

Why? You can't get much clearer than Abbas stating repeatedly and under no circumstance will the PA ever recognize a Jewish state of Israel and the only way to recognize Israel is the express condition it cease being a Jewish state and become a Sharia law nation first.

This forum exhausted the sheer number of speeches by Arafat, Abbas, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, on that point.

Anyone can find the words.

As for Marcus, its really simple. Have him state he recognizes the right of Israel to a Jewish state. He does not. Neither does Big Guy. How about you?

BC_chick · November 2, 2015

Interesting question, do I recognize Israel as a Jewish nation.

Of course I would prefer to see a democracy like Israel declare itself a secular nation with freedom of religion without apartheid living conditions for its religious minority.

However, if it insists of being a theocracy, then I don't really care as long as they stop the settlements and work toward a two-state solution instead of just saying so and doing the opposite.

Rue · November 2, 2015

You at least answered me directly which you never did before. Thank you for that. You know what? Me too. In an ideal world I hate any theocracies. I believe religion and state should be separated ideally. I don't like organized religions,. To be blunt with you I don't feel comfortable with orthodox or ultra orthodox Jewish beliefs any more than I do orthodox beliefs in any other religion.

Hell as far as I go is that I believe there is a source of all life greater than me out there that started a process of infinite regeneration to experience new meanings and we all can choose to be attached to that creation of new meanings or block that creation of new meanings by our here and now immediate decisions that come from our free choice.

You want more then that from me? Can't. I don't read the Bible or Koran literally. I consider them like Aesop's Fables-allegories with many many meanings created to teach us lessons to be civil to each other.

I think we humans have misinterpreted these works to justify ignorance, hatred, war, crime, etc.

I don't blame God-I say we humans have failed.

I was taught the land in the ME is sacred to many peoples. My belief of it needing to be a Jewish nation like most Israelis is not based on it being Jewish in a religious sense but in a collective national sense. We aren't religious. Hell we don't practice fundamentalist religion. Our collective identity comes from existential war to survive.

I can't believe in a theocracy like God. I have seen people kill others, destroy innocent nature and life. My God is an existential abstract concept of trying to heal the harm done by humans. Religious no.

My belief is Israel must exist for Jews because they have no where else to go and they come from there.

I believe the exact same thing for Muslims from Palestine. Exact same things.

Settlements I believe are an obstacle.

I also believe if terrorists were disarmed and the Arab league, Abbas, the whole lot recognized the right of Jews to an Israeli state and showed it by putting down their arms, Netanyahu would be the first if that happened to pull out settlers as part of a comprehensive peace plan.

We are not there. Don't know if it will happen in my lifetime.

What I do know is, if I have this right-I am a generation before you and so in that sense have failed you and will leave you with a mess.

My Zionism is not about and was never about displaced Palestinians-it was about Jews and Arabs living in nations side by side in peace.

Still is. No matter what you may think, not one ounce of Palestinian blood to me is any less precious than Israeli blood.

The fact you answered my question directly for the first time shows me something I said got through to you. I wish I could have done it sooner.

The notion Zionists or me want to kill Palestinians is just not true. There are wackpot extremist Jews as there are Muslims or Christians. None represent the words of God, Allah, Jesus, Muhammed, etc. Hell I do not care what you think of me because in one sense I have failed and admit it to you and would expect you to scorn people like me.

I am part of a generation that can't seem to find peaceful Palestinians to create a peace network with. We keep getting displaced by hate mongers.

However one day we will find each other in spite of the hatred you read coming from one or the other side.

Again thank you for answering the question directly. As corny as it sounds I am moved by your decision to do that. It means a lot to me. It enables me to say what I said without fear from you that you would not understand it.

There is an expression in Christianity, Judaism and Islam and in many other religions that says when a child dies, we are all failed parents of that child. I believe that.

The beliefs I have are called Teekam Olam, which the Christians learned through Jesus as charitable good deed acts and are called an equivalent meaning in Islam and are expressed as an infinite flow of energy that heals or is positive in beliefs such as Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism. That is what I embrace. The cleaning of a person's foot, the bandaging of a leper, the removing nails from a bomb from a child's stomach, that is the only God I know. Its full of blood, its often very dirty, painful and it makes you think you are in hell-but its the test to find civility in the midst of insanity-that is the God if I can call it that and it can and does show its existence-I have seen men and women, children create it in the moment of insanity or war. It exists-it rises from the ashes-its hard hard to find but its there. But me I am not religious. I am just a shmuck, a working man caught in it trying to clean blood from a floor so to speak.

I would wash the feet of a Jew, Muslim, Christian, the same way.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Rue

eyeball · November 2, 2015

Israel should simply be a place where Jewish people live.

BC_chick · November 2, 2015

Rue, isn't it amazing that two people could agree on everything but come to such different conclusions? I have a dear friend who is a staunch supporter of Israel and we argue all the time, especially every time war breaks out in the region, but we love each other the same and in spite of our differences, we actually agree on the basics of our argument. He is against settlement building and I'm against Hamas using terror tactics, but we somehow we come to completely different conclusions in spite of our shared underlying premise.

I think it all comes down to the original grievance. I believe that the Palestinians were justified in their anger and rejection of the Jewish state, but many, yourself included, don't seem to agree and/or downplay the humiliation Palestinians endured. Here we are, now, 60 years later, and even though we have the same understanding of what needs to be done and what can't be undone, our whole perspective depends on which side we believe started what has now become a vicious circle of violence.

I know that both sides have a peaceful majority with a fanatic minority holding things back as often is the case in these types of disputes. I agree that it's a complex issue with no easy answers anywhere in sight.

However, I have my doubts about Netanyahu working on a solution if arms were laid down. I think he is more hawkish than you make out and he actually likes the status quo because it provides him an excuse to continue expansionist policies. I think someone a bit more moderate could have been more influential in reaching a compromise.

xul · November 3, 2015

Rue, isn't it amazing that two people could agree on everything but come to such different conclusions? I have a dear friend who is a staunch supporter of Israel and we argue all the time, especially every time war breaks out in the region, but we love each other the same and in spite of our differences, we actually agree on the basics of our argument. He is against settlement building and I'm against Hamas using terror tactics, but we somehow we come to completely different conclusions in spite of our shared underlying premise.

I think it all comes down to the original grievance. I believe that the Palestinians were justified in their anger and rejection of the Jewish state, but many, yourself included, don't seem to agree and/or downplay the humiliation Palestinians endured. Here we are, now, 60 years later, and even though we have the same understanding of what needs to be done and what can't be undone, our whole perspective depends on which side we believe started what has now become a vicious circle of violence.

I know that both sides have a peaceful majority with a fanatic minority holding things back as often is the case in these types of disputes. I agree that it's a complex issue with no easy answers anywhere in sight.

However, I have my doubts about Netanyahu working on a solution if arms were laid down. I think he is more hawkish than you make out and he actually likes the status quo because it provides him an excuse to continue expansionist policies. I think someone a bit more moderate could have been more influential in reaching a compromise.

You are very kind but also very.... naive trying to figure out a solution.

Have you ever read novel The Hunger Games? In the story, the majority of the tributes don't hate each other at all, but they still fight to death trying to kill each other.

Can you find a solution for all of them?

Do you think the Israelis who live in the settlements in the West Bank, are some kind of Jewish pioneers, like Captain James T. Kirk in Star Trek film----"Settlement, Israel's final frontier... ", if they have better place to go?

And so do the Palestinians there.

Just imagine, if you were the wealthiest citizen of The Capitol, very kind and meant to help the tributes. If you funded Katniss Everdeen; you would have killed other 23; If you funded them all, 23 of them would still end up dead. That's the game .

Edited November 3, 2015 by xul

Rue · November 3, 2015

BC I acknowledge your comments.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Rue

Rue · November 3, 2015

I a not sure Eye what your statement means. It could mean many things. Its not clear. When I argue Jews have a right to a Jewish state just like Muslms have Sharia law states or the Vatican City is a Catholic state, or England is an Anglican state or many countries institutionalize Christian traditions in their statehood, I do not argue that there should be no non Jewish citizens in Israel. Zionism does not say that and the state of Israel's laws do not say that.

There are certain extremist Jews and Israelis and Palestinians and Muslims who want total and absolute detachment of Jews from Muslims and do not think the two should live together. I reject dhimmitude, apartheid, any law that segregates intentionally.

Where you and I disagree is you believe laws of Israel are intended to segregate intentionally based on Muslim/Jewish identity.

I have tried to explain that has come about because of security issues that impact and limit the movement of all Israelis equally regardless of religion.

I agree with Israeli laws that give non Jews all the rights of Israeli Jews and the very rights Jews are not allowed in Muslim states.

I have spoken of brave Beduins and Muslims who have fought in the IDF. I have spoken that most Muslim Israelis do not and will not give up their citizenship as Israelis in a Jewish state because they have their religious and political freedoms and a better economic and health life than in Muslim nations.

On the West Bank outside Israel proper on a peace of land in dispute as to who owns it, I do not disagree the situation on the ground has created zones that are completely detached and premised on whether you are Jewish or Muslim.

While legally and politically I disagree with your interpretation of sovereignty on the West Bank, I like you, do not agree with the status quo on the West Bank any more than you do. It is a situation that in my opinion the longer it remains will incite more terrorism and wars.

Jews require a Jewish state. It is and was our last existential stand against extinction. Make no mistake, ISIL, Hamas, Al Quaeda, Hezbollah, they aren't fighting for Palestinians-they are fighting for their own religious war to rid the world of Jews and if need be other non believers. Their charters call for our genocide.

Just as Muslims and Christians have states. We Jews are entitled to one.

That said I personally believe in an ideal world, religion and state would remain separate. Its not an ideal world unless you live in Canada which is why I cherish Canada for allowing me to live in a country where the state treats all equally-well it tries to-It has its challenges with aboriginals, in defining multi-cultural tolerance, etc., but its a damn good place compared to anywhere else.

I am bloody grateful for it.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Rue

DogOnPorch · November 3, 2015

The Mufti, sure. But he wasn't really much of a leader. He was appointed by the British and was never really popular with the Palestinians. Not like Begin and Shamir who were leaders of terrorist organizations and eventually became prime ministers of Israel. When was the last time there was a discussion about Israel's roots in terrorism?

But yeah, time to move on and also condemn straight up lies by Netanyahu, instead of dancing around.

Let's look at what we have in front of us. It's time that Israel accepts the Arab league deal. They are offering Israel peace for the internationally recognized borders and are open to land swaps and compensation for the Palestinian refugees locked out of their homes inside Israel. Why not take this offer?

The Mufti was one of the founders of the Arab League. He also headed the League's 'Arab Higher Committee' which was to oppose Zionism directly in the British Mandate. So perhaps you can see the trouble with your statement.

The former Grand Mufti...Haj Amin's half brother...keeled over and died during a sermon. The Mufti was next in line but *very* unpopular with the Hashemite clan who also claimed kinship with Mohammad and stewardship of al-Aqsa. The British high commissioner, Herbert Samuel, thinking he could control the young al-Husseini, rubber-stamped his appointment with British approval. But Haj Amin's claim to the job was not really the British's to give...although I'm sure they thought it was. When they couldn't control him, the British outlawed him...all with no effect to his toxic influence.

marcus · November 4, 2015

The Mufti was one of the founders of the Arab League. He also headed the League's 'Arab Higher Committee' which was to oppose Zionism directly in the British Mandate. So perhaps you can see the trouble with your statement.

The former Grand Mufti...Haj Amin's half brother...keeled over and died during a sermon. The Mufti was next in line but *very* unpopular with the Hashemite clan who also claimed kinship with Mohammad and stewardship of al-Aqsa. The British high commissioner, Herbert Samuel, thinking he could control the young al-Husseini, rubber-stamped his appointment with British approval. But Haj Amin's claim to the job was not really the British's to give...although I'm sure they thought it was. When they couldn't control him, the British outlawed him...all with no effect to his toxic influence.

The Mufti was a despicable person. Not many would disagree. But he was no more despicable than the Jewish terrorist groups who killed thousands of innocent people. Two of the Jewish terrorist groups were headed by two eventual Israeli Prime Ministers and the rest of the terrorist groups were absorbed by the IDF.

Of course, we never hear Zionists talk about that and any time it's brought up, there is an attempt to downplay Israel's roots in terrorism. Terrorism seems to only be bad when non-Jews do it.

Kind of like now. Like one of many examples: Jewish settlers set fire to a Palestinian home, killing all but one member of the family. The Israeli army find the suspects but guess what, no one has yet to be punished for the terrorist actions.

DogOnPorch · November 4, 2015

Again....no Mufti = no Irgun...no Stern Gang...no war with Israel.

The Mufti has perhaps a million deaths at his hands while an SS man. He was a busy guy during WW2.

Plus, your complaints about old Jewish terror groups (declared terrorists by their fellow Jews) really doesn't add-up seeing the terrorist activities of the Mufti, Yasser Arafat, Habash (etc) who were all far worse...and guilty of starting all this violence. Or that Arab terrorist groups still exist after all these decades.

But...alas...

Edited November 4, 2015 by DogOnPorch

Rue · November 4, 2015

The Irgun never had more than 250 at its peak. The Stern gang was about 20 or so. The Palmach represented 99.999999% of the armed Zionists. In fact the terrorist Irgun turned itself in to fight along side the British in WW2 and the handful of terrorists we are talking about were arrested and turned over to the British by the Palmach.

Yet we have people on this board who try suggest these Jewish terrorists were some significant representation of Zionists. What a friggin joke.

Its a stale attempt to call all Zionists terrorists to justify terrorism by Hamas, et al.

Now its interesting Dog because its a million dollar question-had the Mufti not organized hundreds of terror cells would Irgun and its splinter group Stern gang have existed?

Great question. I think they would have limited themselves to British military targets only had it not been for the Palestinian terror cells but we will never know.

The fact though that they were so small speaks to the difference between Zionists and today's terrorists who try claim they engage in the same tactics as Zionists. They most certainly do not and never have. The Palmach followed the Geneva Convention, these terrorists do not.

eyeball · November 4, 2015

I a not sure Eye what your statement means. It could mean many things. Its not clear.

It means precisely what I said. Nothing more and nothing less. A simple peanut flicked from the gallery.

Where you and I disagree is you believe laws of Israel are intended to segregate intentionally based on Muslim/Jewish identity.

Where you and I disagree is your never-ending propensity to tell me what it is I believe. You become entirely responsible for your own confusion over what other people mean or say when you refuse to simply leave a comment alone without reading something else into it. This is why your posts evolve into such brobdingnagian monstrosities that mirror the unfathomable quagmire the ME has become.

What I truly believe is that the ME is basically a failed region in which everyone will likely die and aside from the odd curiosites that crop up like this Mufti dude I'm pretty much past caring anymore. I'm probably more interested in the contortions people put themselves through while trying to maintain some sort of ethical or moral position.

bush_cheney2004 · November 4, 2015

.....What I truly believe is that the ME is basically a failed region in which everyone will likely die and aside from the odd curiosites that crop up like this Mufti dude I'm pretty much past caring anymore. I'm probably more interested in the contortions people put themselves through while trying to maintain some sort of ethical or moral position.

No need for such a Debbie Downer outlook for the ME. The "aboriginals" and "indigenous" peoples of the region are competing for land and resources, just as they have done since forever. Should one wish that they suffer the same "peaceful" fate as the "aboriginals" in North America, where Spain, Britain, France, and Portugal had their way with them ?

I prefer to think of it as just another chapter of Guns, Germs, and Steel....as yet unfinished for the ME. Stay tuned....

eyeball · November 4, 2015

No need for such a Debbie Downer outlook for the ME. The "aboriginals" and "indigenous" peoples of the region are competing for land and resources, just as they have done since forever.

The difference being there's less to fight over so the fighting's that much nastier - smaller waterholes lead to meaner animals and all. The pancakes are probably more saturated than you think.

Should one wish that they suffer the same "peaceful" fate as the "aboriginals" in North America, where Spain, Britain, France, and Portugal had their way with them ?

No, wishing for that would be kinda sick don't you think?

I prefer to think of it as just another chapter of Guns, Germs, and Steel....as yet unfinished for the ME. Stay tuned....

I wouldn't be surprised if it's like this anywhere throughout time and space that sentient beings evolve. Seti still hasn't tuned in on anything yet.

Edited November 4, 2015 by eyeball

bush_cheney2004 · November 4, 2015

The difference being there's less to fight over so the fighting's that much nastier - smaller waterholes lead to meaner animals and all. The pancakes are probably more saturated than you think.

And that's OK...competition is good. That it may unsettle one's peaceful sensibilities in an already conquered and tamed Norte America is less than even a secondary concern. Team Israel is ready for whatever the Grand Mufti may have in mind.

eyeball · November 4, 2015

You really don't think wishing for it is sick do you?

bush_cheney2004 · November 4, 2015

You really don't think wishing for it is sick do you?

Not at all, as wishing for anything either way is futile and meaningless to the principals in the region. Ultimately, it is their struggle and conviction to continue the conflict(s). Crazy Horse was right....

Edited November 4, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

marcus · November 4, 2015

Again....no Mufti = no Irgun...no Stern Gang...no war with Israel.

Interesting how you are blaming the Jewish terrorist groups' terrorism and the killing of thousands of people on the Palestinians.

Kind of like how Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have blamed their terrorist actions on Israel's occupation.

The Mufti has perhaps a million deaths at his hands while an SS man. He was a busy guy during WW2.

Once again you are getting carried away with irresponsible comments. You need to back up your claim that the Mufti has "perhaps a million deaths at his hands".

Edited November 5, 2015 by marcus