Netanyahu: It was Mufti of Jerusalem who convinced Hitler to kill Jews

[DogOnPorch]

If anything, it sounds to me like the Grand Mufti took lessons from Hitler, not the other way around.

Hitler and the Mufti were similar in their style. He conducted his first full-up pogrom mere months after he became Grand Mufti. This after his half-brother...the previous Grand Mufti...keeled over from a heart attack. He even had regicide on his list of crimes...gotta work to get that one.

Edited October 23, 2015 by DogOnPorch

[msj]

Hitler and the Mufti were similar in their style. He conducted his first full-up pogrom mere months after he became Grand Mufti. This after his half-brother...the previous Grand Mufti...keeled over from a heart attack. He even had regicide on his list of crimes...gotta work to get that one.

Yes, I get it that he was a creep.

But the focus here is on Hitler and Germany's responsibility with respect to the Holocaust.

To deflect some of that blame as Netanyahu has done (and the political motivations related to this claim) is what this thread is about.

Not Big Guy/Marcus, not the monster Mufti, but Netanyahu and his poisonous politics.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, I get it that he was a creep.

But the focus here is on Hitler and Germany's responsibility with respect to the Holocaust.

To deflect some of that blame as Netanyahu has done (and the political motivations related to this claim) is what this thread is about.

Not Big Guy/Marcus, not the monster Mufti, but Netanyahu and his poisonous politics.

Netanyahu isn't incorrect, though.

Before the Wannsee Conference (Jan 1942), the Holocaust as such was very different depending on where you were. From Babi-Yar on one extreme to Axis Minor nations paying Turkey to take their Jews on the other. There was no set method.

The Wannsee Conference was, of course, Reinhard Heydrich's outline as to how to conduct "Germany's Jewish storage problem" as he put it. It would be conducted with speed and efficiency...perhaps you've seen a dramatization of the meeting (the minutes exist).

The Mufti met with Hitler in November 1941 to complain that the Jews escaping were his problem rather than Germany's. Nobody walked off the street (almost) and met the Fuhrer...but the Mufti did. They never met again. However, the Mufti was friends with both Eichmann and Himmler. In Eichmann's case, since before WW2 started (1937).

What made Hitler change his mind? Nobody can say...but we can also assume that the Mufti had quite a bit of influence behind the scenes.

That's the evidence.

Plus...this isn't a secret.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1893&dat=19470915&id=lLAfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=N9cEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1802,5405767&hl=en

They knew about his deeds in the 1940s. We're the ones who have forgotten.

Edited October 23, 2015 by DogOnPorch

[Rue]

I will tell you what the "uproar" is Marcus.

The very words you reproduced asking why is there an uproar prove your by-line for this thread is false and in fact the by-line you wrote has nothing to do with what Netanyahu actually stated.

You claim Netanyahu blamed the Mufti for starting the holocaust when he did nit. That is the so called uproar and you in fact have shown your accusation as to what he said and what he actually said are not the same.

You at least reproduced what he actually said.

Now to be fair, not only you but the media has engaged in the distortion you have. A lot of people jumped on Netanyahu claiming Netanyahu said the Mufti was solely to blame for the holocaust and/or suggesting Hitler would not have exterminated Jews had it not been for the Mufti.

Netanyahu never said either, but he does have to take responsibility which he did for the misunderstandings that flowed and this is why he gave a clarification which you will not acknowledge. You also won't acknowledge the role of the Mufti during WW2 which is exactly what Netanyahu reported accurately nor will you acknowledge the Mufti most certainly incited Palestinian riots in the past just as they are now being incited by the latest set of Palestinian militants claiming Jews are taking over the Mount. That was his point and it remains true.

He bares blame for not making his original statements clearer. He now has and made it clear he never suggested the Mufti was solely to blame.

Have the decency to at least admit the Mufti was a Nazi sympathizer and indeed played a role in the holocaust.

In regards to your further responses representing historians claiming Netanyahu was a liar I will now show what you claim they said, and what they actually said are not the same.

First I ask people to go to the following article to see what was removed out of context:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Netanyahus-Holocaust-distortion-obscures-Muftis-collaboration-say-historians-428670

Yes the article does report that leading Israeli historians and survivors’ advocates on Wednesday accused Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of distorting the Holocaust, following a speech in which he claimed that Adolf Hitler had been convinced to murder Europe’s Jews by the leader of the Palestinian nationalist movement.

That was BEFORE Netanyahu then clarified his comments. As well Netanyahu did not say the sole reason Hitler exterminated Jews is because of what the Mufti said which is what can be inferred from the words "convinced to murder Europe's Jews by the leader of the Palestinian national movement". Netanyahu never suggested the Mufti's remarks were the ONLY reason the extermination happened. It certainly was construed that way, I could see how it could be construed that way, but he clarified what he meant.

Let us once and for all end this spin.

In fact Netanyahu was addressing the 37th Zionist Congress in Jerusalem on Tuesday, when he stated that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini “had a central role in fomenting the Final Solution."

That is historic fact. If you Marcus, or Big Guy, or Eye, or Miley or BC has evidence to the contrary present it. You have not.

Most certaintly the chief Historian for Yad Vashem told the The Jerusalem Post it was incumbent on Netanyahu to backtrack on his remarks and he did.

This chief historian said thedestruction of European Jewry had been on Hitler’s mind since the First World War and it was “his obsession,” Netanyahu said nothing to suggest otherwise.

The chief historian went on to state, “The mufti had nothing to do with fomenting or developing the Final Solution.”

That Netanyahu and I and many others Jew and non Jew do not agree with and it does not make me, Netanyahu or them a liar.

The chief Historian takes a position as to many historians that In 1939, years before Hitler and the mufti met in Berlin, the Nazi leader had already publicly stated that should the Jews “succeed in plunging the nations into a world war yet again, then the outcome will not be the victory of Jewry, but rather the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe,”.

Netanyahu does not disagree with the above and never stated he denied the above.

The Yad Vashem direct went on to say that the process of putting Jews into ghettos and the beginning of the mass murder of Jews in the Soviet Union occurred before the meeting between Hitler and the Mufti in a November 1941 meeting in Berlin.

Netanyahu never denied the above.

The Yad Vashem director is said by the Jerusalem Post to have interpreted Netanyahu's statement that she took from Netanyahu's words that Netanyahu believed Hitler changed his mind about expulsion as a viable solution to what he saw as the “Jewish problem” following the meeting.

Netanyahu as does many others including historians believe the above meeting had an influence. How much we do not know. Netanyahu described it as a central role. The fact is it can not be measured. It may have been 100% the reason, 90%, 80% 10% no one can say.

Porat the Yad Vashem Director said that while Hitler had supported forcible relocation, that was “only at the first stage.” Netanyhu never said that he did not agree with that.

Porat said Jewish emigration from areas under German control was halted in 1940, she said. Netanyahu never stated anything about that/

Because of all the above inferences the Director did not call Netanyahu a liar as Marcus you suggested but in fact sid:

“I would like [Netanyahu] to clarify what he meant by the mufti fomenting the Final Solution. I would like him to clarify what he meant by emigration being the only wish of Hitler,” Porat said.

That is precisely what Netanyahu then did clarifying and making it clear he totally agreed with Porat except for a debate as to what the role of the Mufti was in WW2.

Most certainly Porat and the Simon Wiesenthal Center’s Dr. Efraim Zuroff, stated Netanyahu's comments served to obscure the actual role that the mufti played in the Holocaust and provide ammunition for holocaust deniers. For that reason, Netanyahu deserves criticism but not for lying, which he did not, but not being more careful with his words so they could not be misappropriated.

In fact Zuroff never called Netanyahu a liar but did state said the involvement of the leader of the Palestinian national movement in the Holocaust is a matter of historical record which means Netanyahu was not a liar but told the truth.

He also went on to citethe mufti’s propaganda work on behalf of the Third Reich and his role in recruiting Muslim troops to take part in the Holocaust.

He stated:

“There is no doubt that the mufti was a zealous supporter of the Third Reich and that he hoped that the Nazis would implement the Final Solution in the Land of Israel....."

So the above shows Netanyahu did NOT lie.

Where the disagreement comes, is in the next part that Zuroff called Netanyahu out on;

"...but Hitler did not need any convincing from the mufti or anyone else to launch the annihilation of European Jewry,” Zuroff said.

Netanyahu's clarification made it clear he did not feel Hitler needed convincing by the Mufti and simpy was pointing out which is true, that the Mufti told Hitler not to send Jews to Palestine and instead burn them all. That is fact.

Zuroff at the time of the above statement had not received Netanyahu's clarification yet.

Zuroff did not call Netanyahu a liar but did offer this criticism of his statement:

“At a time when Palestinian lies are fueling an outbreak of terror and the Palestinians have submitted a proposal to UNESCO which totally denies a Jewish presence in the Land of Israel, a mistake of this sort is particularly unfortunate,” Zuroff said.

“If you inflate and totally exaggerate the role of the mufti it undermines the accurate aspects of the mufti’s zealous support for the Third Reich and [his] hopes that the Final Solution will be implemented in the Land of Israel.”

If in fact Netanyahu's assertion was the Mufti was the sole reason for the holocaust or the decision to extreminate then the above criticism would be of course totally called for but Netanyahu's clarification made it clear never blamed the Mufti solely for creating the holocaust-what he did say about what the Mufti said and did is 100% true-he did not exaggerate his role-but his words led to the confusion he was and did need clarification and he most certainly does need to show more care when making such points.

The Jerusalem Post article went on without yet getting the clarification assuming Netanyahu was blaming the Mufti soley for the holocaust and was therefore incorrect in his assertions.

Netanyahu has not made clear he did not blame the Mufti solely.

The question is how much real influence did the Mufti have>

Well in fact Zuroff agrees with Netanyahu in that he stated that the Mufti went out of his way to stop expulsion when he said:

“The mufti tried very hard to stop it, (expulsion)” Zuroff said. “He intervened to make sure it wouldn’t happen and that intervention apparently halted or stopped those operations (expelling Jews to Palestine).”

In fact the other historians Marcus claims said Netanyahu lied did not either. They in fact gave other examples of the Mufti's role in stopping Jews being sent to Palestine including an incident where in fact the mufti persuading the Germans to cancel a 1943 prisoner exchange that would have sent 4,000 Jewish refugee children to Palestine according to Dr. Rafael Medoff, director of the David S. Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies in Washington.

As I stated earlier the Mufti was directly involved in getting Jewish children killed. Dr. Medoff stated: “As a result of the mufti’s intervention, the children were sent to Auschwitz. There is ample evidence that he knew they would be murdered,”

This is why I have stated, this thread was started with a false premises as to what Netanyahu actually stated. It then went off on that false premises to call Netanyahu a liar for something he never said.

More importantly all the persons who then predictably jumped on the lets piss on Netanyahu and Zionism bandwagon deliberately ignored the actual statements as to what was said and not one, not Big Guy, Marcus, Eye, BC, whoever, not one has come on this thread to be able to prove the Mufti did not do what Netanyahu said he did or what I have reported he has done.

Not one.

Yes Netanyahu should take heat for what he said. No none of you anti Israelis should get a free pass to distort what the Mufti did.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes Netanyahu should take heat for what he said. No none of you anti Israelis should get a free pass to distort what the Mufti did.

My uncle talked about burning Jews in barns on his orders.

[cybercoma]

Netanyahu isn't incorrect, though.

When the top holocaust scholars in the world says he is, I'm going to go with that.

[eyeball]

So I take it the Nazis weren't really that anti-semitic after all given the Mufti was, you know....Semitic.

[BC_chick]

When the top holocaust scholars in the world says he is, I'm going to go with that.

All those scholars must be Jew-haters.

[Hudson Jones]

When the top holocaust scholars in the world says he is, I'm going to go with that.

It's because they are self-hating Jews. If they contradict Bibi then that's what they are.

[GostHacked]

What a dismal thread.

The accusations against each other here is entertaining , but also very stupid. One person does not want to get trolled, but then gets trolled hard in order to get an answer out of him and then the troller gets upset when the person being trolled does not play the game. And when others chime in, they get berated for supporting the trolled poster. Interesting dynamics. Sarcasm is also met with 'go read history' the facepalm icon is appropriate really but in an ironic way. And yet another poster tells others not to make it personal but makes it personal anyways.

[Rue]

I explained in detail that the scholars BC Chick, Eye, Cybercoma, etc., have claimed called Netanyahu a liar about what he stated as to the Mufti's role in he holocaust at no time called him a liar or even disagreed with anything he actually said

They were most certainly concerned with how his words could be misinterpreted which were then clarified.

Cyber, Eyeball, BC Chick, now evidence in their continuing false representations that the historians called Netanyahu a liar show a basic lack of integrity to debate in good faith.

I also expected Hudon Jones to chirp in with his Jew baiting comment.

Some of the historians who criticized Netanyahu's choice of words before they were clarified were not even Jews.

Hudson Jone's need to engage in a comment that has nothing to do with what was said evidences I would argue classic Jew baitinh words.

Netanyahu;'s words were not clearly stated and led to distortion but this thread is dead. He did not claim the Mufti caused the holocaust as the by-line said and the historians in fact agree with his take on the Mufti. What they were concerned with was his choice of words before they were clarified not after they were clarified.

The attempt to continue misrepresenting what the historians said, what Netanyahu said, and what the Mufti's role was, all speak for themselves and how the lack of credibility and how the need to piss on Netanyahu or Zionists or Zionism trumps coherent debate.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Rue

[marcus]

I explained in detail that the scholars BC Chick, Eye, Cybercoma, etc., have claimed called Netanyahu a liar about what he stated as to the Mufti's role in he holocaust at no time called him a liar or even disagreed with anything he actually said

Except that the scholar said: “completely erroneous, on all counts.”

This is nothing but a pathetic attempt at covering for a liar.

[BC_chick]

Netanyahu;'s words were not clearly stated and led to distortion but this thread is dead. He did not claim the Mufti caused the holocaust as the by-line said and the historians in fact agree with his take on the Mufti. What they were concerned with was his choice of words before they were clarified not after they were clarified.

Rue, with all due respect, your posts are extremely long and to an extent incoherent as to the point you're making. I did not ignore you, but while I get that you are saying Netanyahu's words were distorted, I'm unclear what you think he was trying to say.

[Rue]

BC you don't get it both ways. Don't pull this shtick that you don't read what I say then in the next breath you are unclear what I said. It couldn't be clearer. You don't have the integrity to debate it, don't.

Marcus you have removed what the scholar's words refer to. He referred to erroneous on all counts as to the claim the Mufti was solely to blame. Go on explain what Netanyahu said about the Mufti that was wrong. At least do that. He made an unclear statement as to impact of the Mufti's role but not the role itself. Provide the scholar who stated he was wrong on all counts, and what counts he was wrong on. Debate it. Have the decency t provide the statements of Netanyahu about the Mufti's role that are as you now claim the historian said which he did not, erroneous on all counts. Removing as you do statements from their actual context to give them new meaning-its a stale tactic, enough.

You and BC Chick and the rest, have the decency if you call Netanyahu a liar about the Mufti's role, to provide evidence what he said about the Mufti's role was wrong. You have not done that.

Finish it Marcus. Finish it BC. You can't have it both ways. If you claim Netanyahu is a liar, than the Mufti played no role in the holocaust. Now prove it.

This game of pulling words from their actual context to give them a different meaning is over.

You want to ignore my debate claiming you don't understand it, right. The words are there. I made the effort to respond to your contentions owrd for word, you two have not.

I have also conceded to all readers Netanyahu's words could have been much more clearly stated.

None of you have come back able to deny the Mufti's role. None of you have in fact proven what Netanyahu said was a lie. You also should go get the historian you quote Marcus, provide his name, and the full statement of what he said. Go on at least do that because if you do it will again prove you lifted what the historian said out of its true context to give it a different meaning and yah I know, its oh so convenient, BC did not read my direct response to that distortion. It wasn't clear to her. Yah got it.

[BC_chick]

Rue, again, this is the quote from Haaretz that marcus referred to:

In a speech before the World Zionist Congress in Jerusalem, Netanyahu described a meeting between Husseini and Hitler in November, 1941: "Hitler didn't want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jew. And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, 'If you expel them, they'll all come here (to Palestine).' According to Netanyahu, Hitler then asked: "What should I do with them?" and the mufti replied: "Burn them."
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.681525?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it

Do you deny that the above quote indicates that Netanyahu is explicitly implying that Mufti was the reason Hitler decided to burn the Jews?

[Rue]

Yes, because he clarified it and made it clear that is not what he meant. As I have also said, without his clarification, it most certainly needed clarification and could be construed in that manner and therefore was poorly worded, and as the historians said, left without clarification lent themselves to a distortion as to the impact of the Mufti's role and the inference you said. Those words if not clarified could be inferred the way you took them yes unless clarified further. They were not clearly explained nd deserved calling out.

Hitler and Eichman would have engaged in the holocaust no matter what. Whether the role of the Mufti accelerated their decision, was the sole reason they decided to wipe them out, or had any influence, is hindsight. All we can say historically is the Mufti most certainly played an active role in killing Jews and pressing Eichman to switch from bullets to gas. That is documented at Nuremberg.

The Mufti being a pro Nazi ally is a fact. His using false claims that Jews were tring to take over the mosque to incite riots in Jerusalem is a fact.

The pro Nazi sympathies of Nasser, Sadat, Arafat, Abbas, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Baath parties in Iraq, and Syria, are a fact. The pro Hitler governments in Egypt, Syria, Iraq during and after WW2 are a fact. Holocaust denial in Iran is a fact.

That said, I do not think demonizing Palestinians because of Abbas or Hamas or Hezbollah is helpful. Netanyahu in my opinion must learn to stop using certain divisive words and speak directly to moderate Palestinians if this stalemate is going to change. He's got to find a new dialogue to talk over the heads of militant extremists and directly to Palestinians.

That is my opinion. I can not be clearer then that with you,.

Now be fair and at least acknowledge what I said. Thank you for responding.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Rue

[BC_chick]

Hitler and Eichman would have engaged in the holocaust no matter what. Whether the role of the Mufti accelerated their decision, was the sole reason they decided to wipe them out, or had any influence, is hindsight. All we can say historically is the Mufti most certainly played an active role in killing Jews and pressing Eichman to switch from bullets to gas. That is documented at Nuremberg.

Good for you for acknowledging in your post that Netanyahu's words were inflammatory and counter-productive.

As for the above quote, I did some googling but everything I read indicated that nobody knows what was said between Hitler and Mufti. German chancellor Merkel disagreed with Netanyahu while standing next to him saying that the holocaust was exclusively the fault of the Nazis.

Do you have a cite for your claim that Mufti is responsible for Hitler switching from bullets to gas?

Edited October 25, 2015 by BC_chick

[DogOnPorch]

That was Reinhard Heydrich's choice. And this after discussions with SS Major Rudi Lange who had conducted the Holocaust in Latvia and the other Baltic States with Einsatzgruppen. It was only after Heydrich was taken-out by Allied commandos (June '42) that Eichmann rose to the top of the heap. The Mufti was also in the SS...not just a bystander.

[DogOnPorch]

The Mufti being a pro Nazi ally is a fact.

A bit more than pro-Nazi...an actual one.

The trend I'm seeing regarding this bit of 'news' is that since the Mufti wasn't the top Nazi in Germany behind the Final Solution...merely #3 or #4...he gets a pass. And Netanyahu gets a scolding for bringing it up.

[Rue]

BC the evidence as to the role of the Mufti is there just google it. All of it comes from the testimony of others not the Mufti and not Hitler. It comes form letters the Mufti wrote and then testimony and affidavits. Sorry I do not have the time. No it would not directly come from the Mufti. He would never admit what he did. As for Hitler to this day, there is not one direct letter from him about the holocaust.

With due respect I do not disagree with your point the Mufti himself never admitted anything. Neither did Hitler. I think you know the evidence comes from a combination of meticulous German record keeping found after WW2, and then the testimony of eye witnesses and former SS and other Nazi officials.

Dog has referred to it and could shed more light on it. I am not trying to avoid your last question I honestly don't have time to get into a thread on the actual role of the Mufti. My point was to address the the thread not get into another about the Mufti and quite frankly you are the only one I give a damn about when responding because while I totally disagree with you I know from what I read you are not a Jew hater. I know that. I take the time with you because I know you are an idealist and genuinely believe you are defending Palestinians from injustice.

I am trying to take the time with you as some have done with me. Maybe one day you can see a conflict such as the one in the Middle East is not black and white with a bad and good guy-it is in fact people through no fault of their own caught up in disputes fanned by others for the others' personal gain.

[Rue]

Thank you Dog for your comments. I guess we can never know how much actual influence he had or whether he was just a pet monkey for the amusement of Nazis. I think his role with Eichman was influential. I do think Eichman listened to him.

[DogOnPorch]

Thank you Dog for your comments. I guess we can never know how much actual influence he had or whether he was just a pet monkey for the amusement of Nazis. I think his role with Eichman was influential. I do think Eichman listened to him.

No problem.

Eichmann and the Mufti were good friends from before the war (first met in 1937). Himmler and the Mufti were also buddies...but met later. Himmler put the Mufti on SS salary as an OF-6 Major as well as handing him a lovely villa in Oybin (former Jewish) which was close to the action in the Balkans. Hitler had also put him in charge of his so-called Middle East/Arab Bureau which handled propaganda in that region....the Mufti had a regular radio broadcast from Berlin. Quite profitable for the troublemaker, overall.

[BC_chick]

Rue, I'll take your word for it, but as you noted earlier, Netanyahu's words were disingenuous and inflammatory nonetheless. We can leave it at that.

[Big Guy]

Netanyahu continues to agitate the situation and create more unrest in Jerusalem:

"Israel premier orders review of status for east Jerusalem

JERUSALEM (AP) - Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has ordered a review of the status of certain Palestinian neighborhoods in east Jerusalem, an official confirmed Monday, a decision that could potentially strip tens of thousands of Palestinians of their Israeli residency rights. Such a move is unlikely to overcome Israeli legal hurdles, but the very prospect has unnerved Palestinians in the city. The review comes after weeks of Israeli-Palestinian violence, much of it concentrated in east Jerusalem, the section of the city claimed by the Palestinians for their future capital. Many of the Palestinian attackers involved in deadly assaults came from east Jerusalem neighborhoods. Any move to change the status of the city's Palestinians would threaten unleashing new unrest and draw international condemnations."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-26-11-02-40#

Edited October 26, 2015 by Big Guy

[Hudson Jones]

Here is a panel discussing Netanyahu's lie in regards to Hitler, the Aryan nationalist, being convinced by the Arab semite, the Mufti, to begin the holocaust instead of just expelling Jews. The panel includes the Zionists' favourite "self-hating Jew", Norman Finkelstein: